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Night offshore landings: a new approach?

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Night offshore landings: a new approach?

Old 18th Aug 2009, 17:00
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Jim

Those proposing to do away with the radar for obstacle avoidance are clearly not living in the real world!

Just a snippet on the bit between the MAPt and the deck - for the EC225 Eurocopter are proposing to activate the groundspeed hold mode for offshore helicopters (normally part of the SAR modes). This, along with the hover display on the FND, will allow fully coupled flight right down to nil wind hover. Its engaged using a button on the cyclic, you can beep the x and y groundspeed values, and a double press on the button sets zero zero, ie auto-hover. I think that (with suitable training) the ability to stay coupled right up to the commital point will be of big safety benefit. Should be in the next software update around the end of the year.

HC
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 06:10
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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The proposals I've seen certainlyuse radar - there is even a corridor overlaid on the nav display to highlight the area that should stay clear.

HC, sounds similar to what I've seen - essentialy 'SAR AFCS lite'! Does it require an AHRS upgrade or is the existing hardware sufficient? Regardless, these kinds of changes will make a huge improvement in the safety of night offshore approaches for the types concerned.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 06:49
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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HC - is the groundspeed control doppler-based or is it inertial or GPS based?

I only ask because in light wind/foggy conditions with a smooth sea, doppler based systems can struggle, especially in that crucial stage approaching the hover.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 13:28
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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212 - the existing hardware is retained, its just "turning on" something that is already in the AFCS software,

crab - fortunately EC have moved away from doppler, and having used it on the L2 I know what it can be like! Our system will just use gps and inertial. The full EC225 SAR fit no longer has doppler, again its inertial but with dual FMS/GPS (dualled for redundancy rather than integrity). Having flown with it in the prototype its certainly rock solid in trans down and auto-hover.

HC
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 14:12
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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DB

Please Send Me A Copy Of Your Presentation. Many Thanks!
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 18:34
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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HC - thanks
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 18:15
  #127 (permalink)  
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I am also concerned that this issue gets overshadowed by the "academics" trying to foist mathematical conclusions without adressing the bleeding obvious.

As a current operational offshore pilot what matters to me most is that the airspeed is stable when the visibility is poor.

The Bond dropshort stunk of a low/airspeed/height combination. That simple.

To overcome this problem the helicopter needs space to decelerate safley to landing speed whilst maintaining adequate visual refernces, which for an ARA at night, can only be provided by the "ovality" of the deck edge lighting.

When a pilot transfers from purely instrument refernces to hybrid or total visual, this ovality is the only reliable source of information available to him.

In my view the MDH is, and will always be, the pre-cursor to these problems occuring as the crew desperatley attempt to maintain, or reduce speed, when the aquisition of deck ovality is very late, despite being visual with the installation.

TWO SIMPLE CHANGES will make a world of difference:

1. RAISE MDH TO DECK HEIGHT + 200 FEET
2. DEFINE THE REQUIRED VISUAL REFERENCES AT DR/MDH as "Deck Edge Lights Visual"

Like it or not, these two simple measures will almost eradicate ARA problems at night.

Reading some of the posts, whilst the material is well thought out, the practical application of close tolerance flying required to execute an approach at night, down to Deck Height + 100 feet at 3/4 Nm, decelerate safely and land, presents a situation where the risks in doing so are unmitigated by the fact that we are just taking people to work.

Until someone can tell me why my minimum DH on the ILS (with a 1000 yards of tarmac in front of me on which to safely decelerate with pretty lights all along the sides) is 200 feet, I will remain convinced that raising the MDH is the only method to introduce an tangible safety mARgin over the current procedures.

S turns at Deck +100 feet in the dark, without crystal clear references to provide rock solid height control - is utter folly.

CDFA does not provide the answer as it simple serves to reduce the Aquisition Time for the references as we pop out of a theoretical flat cloud base at Deck + 100 feet and 3/4 Nm.

CDFA under EU-OPS is there for a reason, to prevent FW pilots descending immediatley to their MDH/A when the published procedures fail to provide a safe vertical profile - leading to the risk of inadvertent CFIT or speed instability associated with power changes in FW aircraft excerbated by wind gradient and wind shear issues. It has nothing to do with Heli ops.

Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 25th Aug 2009 at 08:43.
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Old 24th Aug 2009, 19:33
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks

Good info, thanks for presentation. I sent you a couple of slides from a ship helo presentation showing similar concepts, let me know if you don't get them.
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Old 26th Aug 2009, 15:51
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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DoubleBogey,

Spot on!! Raise the MDH to deck height plus 200ft! Totally agree. Simple solution to simple problem. Why make things more difficult.

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Old 26th Aug 2009, 18:13
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...and remembering that this thread started as a result of the EC225 accident; that solves the problem - how?

mars
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Old 26th Aug 2009, 21:23
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Good question Mars, of course it doesn't! Although its not particularly nice coming off the end of a night ARA at deck height +50 and 0.75nm, with good procedures and modern autopilots I don't think its particularly high risk. What seems to be high risk, as indicated by REDU and BLUN, is the attempt to fly a visual approach in unsuitable weather.

You may be able to "legislate" against that, but perhaps its more difficult to get universal acceptance of the inadvisability of attempting a visual approach in marginal weather, when an ARA would be so much more controlled.

HC
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Old 27th Aug 2009, 12:07
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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HC - spot on, as ever.

At the risk of being contentious I will say that there is nothing wrong with the current ARA (look at the past 25 years for supporting data) but what IS wrong is the "we must land from this" attitude. DB is correct in saying that "we are just taking people to work" but to make it more complex makes my brain hurt. Why not just mandate an ARA for all night approaches? Pop out at the same place in space every time, then get on with it OR go around and go home. Easy, really.
BTW it has never been OK to descend below MDA until established on Final, which implies a stabilised approach - I have no idea how it became "normal" to descend below MDA without a sight picture of the landing site. Not in my aircraft anyway.

Last edited by Training Centre; 27th Aug 2009 at 12:33.
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Old 3rd Feb 2010, 22:43
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Copy Of Helideck Night Approach Breifing

Hi,

Thanks for the invitation. Could you send a copy to me at the following email address: [email protected]

Many thanks

Bob Dannatt
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Old 5th Apr 2011, 05:18
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Is this thread still alive?

Hi DB. If this thread is still active, I would be appreciative of a copy of your presentation if possible. I can advise you of my email if you can let me know if you are still able to send me a copy.
Thanks in advance.
ORH
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Old 18th Dec 2012, 04:13
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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stablised night approaches

Hello,

I am Capt Ajay Kalia flying Bell 412 & Aw 139 off shore for GVHL in India off shore. Requesting you to please send me a copy presentation on night deck landings.

my e mail [email protected]

regrds
Ajay
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 01:57
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Need the presentation on Night Offshore Approaches

Hi everyone,

I am currently flying offshore ex Mumbai India. We often standby for night cas evac missions from platforms/rigs/ vessels to Mumbai. We have had our share of mishaps, and I was wondering if I could get a copy of the presentation made by Double Bogey sometime back on the subject.

If someone has it, please get in touch.

Regards
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 05:09
  #137 (permalink)  
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Hi I have the presentation. If you pm me your email address I can send you a copy,

DB
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 15:03
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Hi DB

Hi DB,

My email :[email protected]..
Many thanks

jjofk
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