Super Puma down central North Sea Feb 2009
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PS at 48 with 7 to do before pension, it is unlikely (but never say never) that you will ever see my CV
Unfortunately with all the civvie bashing you have done, the only place your CV will end up is in file 13! Perhaps hmmm (It’s not what you know it’s who you know.)
But on the plus side you could squeeze in a cheeky Operational tour in the Stan post 2012, that would be nice wouldn’t it, to finish on a high note and a little buddy to hang next to your Jubilee medal.
Woolf - maybe you could detail what the Jigsaw training hours are and how they are spent instead - I already know what a professional SAR organisation does in the way of SAR training and I bet it's a whole lot more than the 'industry standard'.
My Target - 'Oh nasty crab, we're not going to let you join our gang 'cos you called us nasty names' - get back to the playground
You might notice that much of my 'civvie bashing' has been directed at the companies and not the crews because of the conflict of interest between training budget and profit.
My Target - 'Oh nasty crab, we're not going to let you join our gang 'cos you called us nasty names' - get back to the playground
You might notice that much of my 'civvie bashing' has been directed at the companies and not the crews because of the conflict of interest between training budget and profit.
Crab,
Why don't you tell us what a "professional" SAR organization does in the way of training hours and lay out the syllabus for the RAF SAR units by task, hours, and exercise parameters. Perhaps that might give the rest of the world an idea what you guys do between chomping smoked kippers and your evening toddy!
That way you can yet again set the standard and lead by example.
Why don't you tell us what a "professional" SAR organization does in the way of training hours and lay out the syllabus for the RAF SAR units by task, hours, and exercise parameters. Perhaps that might give the rest of the world an idea what you guys do between chomping smoked kippers and your evening toddy!
That way you can yet again set the standard and lead by example.
What wrist watch have they now banned then?
I'd be delighted to see a reference to the alleged ELT behaviour!
SASless
My training requirements knowledge for RAF SAR may be slightly out of date but when I was on a Seaking flight the Minimum Monthly requirement was as follows:-
Day
1. 1hr wet drums inc PLB homing to drum left in sea by previous crew.
2. 1hr wet dinghy - mixture of single and Multi at Lossiemouth
3. 1hr Decks - mixture of large and small using passing ships and ex RAF patrol craft
4. 1hr situation winching (real people in odd places including stretcher lifts)
5. 1hr cliff winching (extended cable)
6. 1hr General handling - emergencies etc
7. 1hr Instrument flying inc PLB homings
Night
1. 1hr wet drums inc PLB homing to drum left in sea by previous crew.
2. 1hr wet dinghy - mixture of single and Multi at Lossiemouth
3. 1hr Decks - mixture of large and small using passing ships and ex RAF patrol craft
4. 1hr situation winching (real people in odd places including stretcher lifts)
5. 1hr cliff winching (extended cable)
6. 1hr Night circuits to "T", crossed head lamps etc
Quarterly
1. 1.5hr Day/night nav
This was the minimum training and as it was for each crew member one often did more than the minimum.
Not sure what the"industry standard" is but I would be very surprised if Jigsaw crews did any regular Multi crew liferaft training with real people. The RAF being fortunate in having plenty of volunteers to practise on. In my case it was the Nimrod crews from Kinloss off Burghead harbour doing their annual drills
HF
My training requirements knowledge for RAF SAR may be slightly out of date but when I was on a Seaking flight the Minimum Monthly requirement was as follows:-
Day
1. 1hr wet drums inc PLB homing to drum left in sea by previous crew.
2. 1hr wet dinghy - mixture of single and Multi at Lossiemouth
3. 1hr Decks - mixture of large and small using passing ships and ex RAF patrol craft
4. 1hr situation winching (real people in odd places including stretcher lifts)
5. 1hr cliff winching (extended cable)
6. 1hr General handling - emergencies etc
7. 1hr Instrument flying inc PLB homings
Night
1. 1hr wet drums inc PLB homing to drum left in sea by previous crew.
2. 1hr wet dinghy - mixture of single and Multi at Lossiemouth
3. 1hr Decks - mixture of large and small using passing ships and ex RAF patrol craft
4. 1hr situation winching (real people in odd places including stretcher lifts)
5. 1hr cliff winching (extended cable)
6. 1hr Night circuits to "T", crossed head lamps etc
Quarterly
1. 1.5hr Day/night nav
This was the minimum training and as it was for each crew member one often did more than the minimum.
Not sure what the"industry standard" is but I would be very surprised if Jigsaw crews did any regular Multi crew liferaft training with real people. The RAF being fortunate in having plenty of volunteers to practise on. In my case it was the Nimrod crews from Kinloss off Burghead harbour doing their annual drills
HF
How does that compare with the JigSaw crews?
Join Date: Dec 2002
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It has gone very quiet from the "crab baiters" since Hummingfrog posted the RAF training requirements. I would be interested in what Jigsaw and Coastguard do for training.
I must admit I don't fancy bobbing around in the N Sea for 1hr 45min waiting to be picked up
The fact that it took so long to rescue the survivors from a position only 500m from a rig is a very serious matter when the oil company is so committed to safety that it puts in safety cards if a pilot doesn't hold onto the handrail when descending the stairs from the helideck.
332m
I must admit I don't fancy bobbing around in the N Sea for 1hr 45min waiting to be picked up
The fact that it took so long to rescue the survivors from a position only 500m from a rig is a very serious matter when the oil company is so committed to safety that it puts in safety cards if a pilot doesn't hold onto the handrail when descending the stairs from the helideck.
332m
How long would have taken for an RAF Sea King to arrive at the scene of the aircraft as compared to the time the Jig Saw aircraft arrived?
If you go bobbin in the oggin you will have to wait a bit for help to arrive no matter who it is that turns up first.
Now grant you....the transient time for a rescue boat to make its way 500-1000 meters away from a rig should not be all that long one would think....assuming the boat was on the rig to begin with.
Where were the assets located when this thing kicked off that night?
If you go bobbin in the oggin you will have to wait a bit for help to arrive no matter who it is that turns up first.
Now grant you....the transient time for a rescue boat to make its way 500-1000 meters away from a rig should not be all that long one would think....assuming the boat was on the rig to begin with.
Where were the assets located when this thing kicked off that night?
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Jigsaw was conceived during the last round of cost cutting in the N.Sea. It was intended to replace all of BP's platform and rig staqndby vessels with a helicopter only rescue facility. The thinking was that 3 choppers would be sigificantly cheaper than 20 odd vessels and their crews.
After a fair bit(!) of pushback this was enhanced with 3 supply vessels, each of which carries 2 ARRC (very large RIBS - with a cabin etc).
So it is likely that the ARRC which arrived at ETAP after the ditching had made 'best speed' from where ever it had been launched (they spend most of their time in the davits on the supply vessels).
The supply vessels positions and routing as 'optimised' to maintain the ARRC capability.
Having been involved in some Jigsaw assessment the expectation is you will wait for 2 hours before an 'asset' appears. The original helicopter trials resulted in goos recovery times - how well that is replicated with the same(?) crews involved in regular routings - no idea.....
After a fair bit(!) of pushback this was enhanced with 3 supply vessels, each of which carries 2 ARRC (very large RIBS - with a cabin etc).
So it is likely that the ARRC which arrived at ETAP after the ditching had made 'best speed' from where ever it had been launched (they spend most of their time in the davits on the supply vessels).
The supply vessels positions and routing as 'optimised' to maintain the ARRC capability.
Having been involved in some Jigsaw assessment the expectation is you will wait for 2 hours before an 'asset' appears. The original helicopter trials resulted in goos recovery times - how well that is replicated with the same(?) crews involved in regular routings - no idea.....
Sorry - been away skiing in (very expensive) France
I will post the current training requirements when I get back to work.
Sasless - the Sea King crew watched the jigsaw 'rescue' so they weren't far behind the Bond aircraft.
Gasax - wasn't the Jigsaw helicopter requirement to winch 16 pax from the water in less than 30 mins or something similar?
332mistress - I don't think anyone will post the Jigsaw training requirements out of sheer embarrassment
I will post the current training requirements when I get back to work.
Sasless - the Sea King crew watched the jigsaw 'rescue' so they weren't far behind the Bond aircraft.
Gasax - wasn't the Jigsaw helicopter requirement to winch 16 pax from the water in less than 30 mins or something similar?
332mistress - I don't think anyone will post the Jigsaw training requirements out of sheer embarrassment
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My understanding of the Jigsaw required performance was recovery of a full helicopter crew within 2 hours. That was what lead to the use of 'wrist watch' PLBs - you could n't meet the requirement if people had drifted apart.
Of course that is a fair bit longer than the time a platform dedicated standby vessel with 2 FRCs would manage but ......
Of course that is a fair bit longer than the time a platform dedicated standby vessel with 2 FRCs would manage but ......
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RAF SAR Trg Requirements
as I recall they changed from Monthly to quarterly which meant that you could get all your quarters stats done early and then sit back if you wanted.
Also as I remember many flights that I served on were producing great shortfalls in training due flying hour cuts and lack of serviceability. I also remember being on a job and the Captain was doing dummy decks on the fishing boat as he was short of night decks for the period.
Don't pontificate about the amazing RAF training system without producing the dark side of it as well.
Also as I remember many flights that I served on were producing great shortfalls in training due flying hour cuts and lack of serviceability. I also remember being on a job and the Captain was doing dummy decks on the fishing boat as he was short of night decks for the period.
Don't pontificate about the amazing RAF training system without producing the dark side of it as well.
AAIB Special Bulletin
The AAIB have issued a bulletin this morning on the February Puma Crash
Air Accidents Investigation: Special Bulletin S4/2009
It relates to the performance on the day of the ELTs / PLBs and makes some recommendations regarding the use of such devices.
Air Accidents Investigation: Special Bulletin S4/2009
It relates to the performance on the day of the ELTs / PLBs and makes some recommendations regarding the use of such devices.
Last edited by VeeAny; 26th Jun 2009 at 06:39.
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'It has also been established that the crew were not aware that the upper section of the antenna on the beacon type is telescopic'
Is the above not a bit embarrising or bizzare even?
Take it everyone knew on here bar that crew?
Is the above not a bit embarrising or bizzare even?
Take it everyone knew on here bar that crew?
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Is it just me or does it sound kind of daft that in a potentialy extreme situation you're expected to remember to pull up the aerial in a state of the art piece of emergency equipment 
