Hiller UH12c buying advice?
Hiller Info
Never flown a Hiller myself but I know Vanguard Helicopters at Henstridge have a bit to do with them. They have just rebuilt a Hiller in Army colours. Maybe they are worth a call if you want some more info on them.
Yes they maybe slow and old but it's like a classic car. I know some slow and old pilots but they are not dead and I am glad to see the Hiller is not either.
Yes they maybe slow and old but it's like a classic car. I know some slow and old pilots but they are not dead and I am glad to see the Hiller is not either.
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N5315V Hiller 12c
Yes, Vanguard are doing a restoration of N5315V, first LAPD Helicopter. This machine was taken out of service in August 2005 and has a complete mechanical restoration and will be zero-timed. I anticipate that it will be complete in early Feb 2010 and I am the owner and it will be based once again at Lower Upham Airfield.
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Hiller Info
Sorry to have come on to the site so late in the day, and even more
sorry that you didn't come to Vanguard Helicopters Ltd to illicit
accurate information initially. Thanks for all the kind comments.
Yes, we are, amongst 44's and Jet Rangers, maintaining a privately
owned Hiller 12 A/C, and have recently completed a skids upwards
rebuild of another, originally operated by the Los Angeles Police
Department. It is pictured in Vertical Challenge, that wonderful
history about Hillers.
Hillers are 50's technology, but to be fair, 50's technology at it's
best. The opinion that they need constant maintenance, or are difficult
or heavy to fly, are all probably because of the years of
inappropriate or even illegal maintenance that they have suffered
historically. With that open architecture they are a magnet for a
cowboy with a spanner.
Over the past few years we have found innumerable engineering bad
practices in Hillers imported from the USA. Just to mention a few. A
playboy magazine rolled up inside a "flying" Hiller tail boom which had
been used as a mould onto which an inappropriate and illegal filler had
been applied. Whoever did it forgot to retrieve his playboy. An
armoured fuel pipe, plumbing an auxilliary fuel tank, but with no inner
lining. Forks on the main rotor blades which were not a matching pair,
neither visual nor weight. Totally inappropriate and illegal bolts.
Tail rotor control wires snagged during fitting, against the metal seat
supports under the seats and therefore invisible to inspection, with
serious chaffing. Not to mention an array of home made alterations and
repairs to both the mechanical and electrical systems. STC's seem to be
a flexible feast in the USA.
So it is no wonder that these shoddy practices have resulted in poor
flying characteristics. But, what does it say for Hiller safety? They
must be extremely safe and forgiving, and capable of being flown when
most other helicopters would have failed.
If you want to talk Hiller, or any other helicopter maintenance come to
that, why don't you call us and visit. We'll be happy to tell you the
facts.
We don't know of any helicopter that you can safely maintain "on the
cheap", Hiller is no exception. Get the work done properly and
according to the manual, and Hiller is still a good private helicopter
which should give years of fantastic flying. And what a looker !!
If you are thinking of buying one and need a survey, call us.
Have a look at our web site and also helihiller.com which is an under
used, but very useful Hiller forum.
Bob West.
sorry that you didn't come to Vanguard Helicopters Ltd to illicit
accurate information initially. Thanks for all the kind comments.
Yes, we are, amongst 44's and Jet Rangers, maintaining a privately
owned Hiller 12 A/C, and have recently completed a skids upwards
rebuild of another, originally operated by the Los Angeles Police
Department. It is pictured in Vertical Challenge, that wonderful
history about Hillers.
Hillers are 50's technology, but to be fair, 50's technology at it's
best. The opinion that they need constant maintenance, or are difficult
or heavy to fly, are all probably because of the years of
inappropriate or even illegal maintenance that they have suffered
historically. With that open architecture they are a magnet for a
cowboy with a spanner.
Over the past few years we have found innumerable engineering bad
practices in Hillers imported from the USA. Just to mention a few. A
playboy magazine rolled up inside a "flying" Hiller tail boom which had
been used as a mould onto which an inappropriate and illegal filler had
been applied. Whoever did it forgot to retrieve his playboy. An
armoured fuel pipe, plumbing an auxilliary fuel tank, but with no inner
lining. Forks on the main rotor blades which were not a matching pair,
neither visual nor weight. Totally inappropriate and illegal bolts.
Tail rotor control wires snagged during fitting, against the metal seat
supports under the seats and therefore invisible to inspection, with
serious chaffing. Not to mention an array of home made alterations and
repairs to both the mechanical and electrical systems. STC's seem to be
a flexible feast in the USA.
So it is no wonder that these shoddy practices have resulted in poor
flying characteristics. But, what does it say for Hiller safety? They
must be extremely safe and forgiving, and capable of being flown when
most other helicopters would have failed.
If you want to talk Hiller, or any other helicopter maintenance come to
that, why don't you call us and visit. We'll be happy to tell you the
facts.
We don't know of any helicopter that you can safely maintain "on the
cheap", Hiller is no exception. Get the work done properly and
according to the manual, and Hiller is still a good private helicopter
which should give years of fantastic flying. And what a looker !!
If you are thinking of buying one and need a survey, call us.
Have a look at our web site and also helihiller.com which is an under
used, but very useful Hiller forum.
Bob West.
Hiller run up.
Hello again,
I was going past Vanguard Helicopters whilst up at Henstridge the other day and watched them start the Hiller 12 that they have beautifully restored. It sounded very nostalgic but I noticed that the blades also ran up straight away when the engine fired up. Is there a direct drive with the Hiller as this does not seem to happen when they start either the Enstrom or the Robinson 44 that they also have.
The Hiller has fair old size blades on it and was wondering if the engine would benefit from being warmed up before it felt the weight of the rotor system.
Nevertheless it still looked impressive and its nice to see a classic restored to flying condition.
Will it be staying at Henstridge or nearby?
Thanks.
I was going past Vanguard Helicopters whilst up at Henstridge the other day and watched them start the Hiller 12 that they have beautifully restored. It sounded very nostalgic but I noticed that the blades also ran up straight away when the engine fired up. Is there a direct drive with the Hiller as this does not seem to happen when they start either the Enstrom or the Robinson 44 that they also have.
The Hiller has fair old size blades on it and was wondering if the engine would benefit from being warmed up before it felt the weight of the rotor system.
Nevertheless it still looked impressive and its nice to see a classic restored to flying condition.
Will it be staying at Henstridge or nearby?
Thanks.
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Robert West
Good afternoon Jeepys. Next time you are at Henstridge, call in and introduce yourself. We don't bite, we'll tell you the whole Hiller story, and may even go so far as offering you a cup of coffee.
Thanks for all your kind comments, I look forward to meeting you,
Robert.
Thanks for all your kind comments, I look forward to meeting you,
Robert.
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The Hiller 12 has a centrifugal clutch much the same as the Bell 47 which is why the blades seem to start turning early. All the pilot does is increase the revs and hey presto the blades start turning.
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Hiller Centrifugal Mercury Clutch
Just to build on the comments made on the Hiller start-up the Hiller has a centrifugal mercury clutch. A mercury bag is thrown out in a rotating assembly when the engine RPM builds up and engages the transmission which drives the MR & TR's directly. It is common for the clutch to catch straight away on start-up and see motion in the MR blades. The Franklin is then warmed up at 1700 RPM before opening out to its 3100 flying RPM.
p.s. we may be doing another run-up tomorrow morning Thurs 25th Feb.
p.s. we may be doing another run-up tomorrow morning Thurs 25th Feb.
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The Bell 47 had clutch shoes, like brake shoes, & needed the throttle to be reduced at a certain forgotten rpm to fully engage. The Hiller bags were a bit different but seemed to work well considering we were students.
The RN replaced the 12C with the 12E in 1963; it was great flying a brand new machine. From that new machine, we went onto Whirlwind Mk 3 & Mk 7 which really sorted out the boys from the men!!
The RN replaced the 12C with the 12E in 1963; it was great flying a brand new machine. From that new machine, we went onto Whirlwind Mk 3 & Mk 7 which really sorted out the boys from the men!!
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Vanguard Hiller 12C
Here is a shot of the 12C overhauled recently by Vanguard
Glynn Williams Hillier UH-12 Test 11.3.10 030 - helicopters
Glynn Williams Hillier UH-12 Test 11.3.10 030 - helicopters
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As to the speed of the H12c, my late uncle built up a C from around90% new old stock parts but with a used Franklin 6V335. I partly overhauled the engine and gas flowed the heads and fitted a later longer duration new cam for an injected motor. We never had the power output measured but at a guess it must have been around 260hp at an indicated 3300rpm and it topped out at 86mph (GPS).
Andy.
Andy.
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old thread but still very valid to post. The UH12C (H23C) is less expensive by quite a margin, to operate and maintain than the UH12E3. Both are 3 place machines. The 6V335B franklin engine consumes around 12-14 GPH, the VO540C2A Lycoming in theE consumes about 18-22 GPH. The franklin engines are known and reputable to be very troublefree compqred to the lycoming engines. There is a big difference in HP available. The C has 4 components that are time life limited, mostly tail rotor assembly parts. The mainrotor blades on the C model are wood and almost identical albeit a little shorter than the wooden blades of the Bell 47G. Gross takeoff weight of the C model is 2,500 lbs. Gross weight of the E with the latest model main rotor blades is 3,100 lbs. With the older Parsons tapered blades (similar shape and airfoil profile tonthebwooden blades) is 2,800 in standard category, and 3,100 in restricted category. There is not a less expensive Helicoter type or model in existence today that has standard airworthiness certificate than a H23C (UH12C) bar none. Very reliable, very inexpensive to operate and maintain. A Robinson is an accident waiting for a place to happen. Low energy rotor vs the high energy rotor of the Hiller of any model. Same as Bell 47. Real helicopters with real drive trains and no rubber bands. I would go with a Hiller. I have maintained Hiller helicopters for over 20 years, as well as many other types. The Hiller’s have been the most reliable and least expensive on the budget to maintain by quite a large margin.
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HIllerBee,
Well, as the new General Manager of Hiller Aircraft Corporation and an owner and operator of 6 Hiller UH12E's, piston and turbine, I think I might be able to shed some light on the subject of Hillers. I am sure you are quite experienced, being an instructor and having time in the ships. I really can't comment on your experience as I am unable with the information provided to determine just how those ships you were flying were maintained.
However, I will say, that over the past 20 years, the customer support from the previous owners and managers of Hiller Aircraft was non-existent. Truly a shame and a travesty for the product. While the UH12a/b/c models were excellent aircraft, each with its own strengths, they were the foundation of the program and provided the path to many positive improvements leading to the workhorse of the fleet, the UH12E, E-L and L models. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, performance for performance: nothing can out work a Hiller. I am fond of saying that if I thought I could get away with it, I would "Paint it Green and slap a Yellow Deer on its side". But that just about sums it up.
I have many hours, and days, flying the Hiller operationally, on actual flight missions, ranging from search and rescue to Ag applications. I can tell you, from my seat, if one takes care to preform the proper maintenance, per the manual, then the Hiller provides a superior up-time mission availability of any Helicopter in its category, class and market. It has never let me down. There are many signs, long before failure, of pending issues that need resolution. If you keep a sharp eye out during pre-flight and post-flight inspections and address the issues as they appear, this Helicopter will never let you down either. Of course, this also requires the support of the factory which we are addressing now. Simply go to our new website www.hilleraircraft.com and you will see the improvements to date. More to come.
I am happy you enjoy the R22 for training, even here are Hiller, while we are focused on training pilots to be Hiller pilots, we recognize that the truly rounded pilot will need some Robby time. However, if I am not wrong, you are speaking to people not running a flight school but general users. So, one last important point I would like to make before I conclude. Something to consider when making your choice, the Robinson aircraft are only good for 2200 hours or 12 years, whichever comes first. Unless you intend to fly your aircraft almost 200 hours a year, which few general aviation operators do, you will run into to the 12 year issue. Just think, you can purchase an R22, R44, R66, fly it 100 hours and then put it away, In 12 years, its done, full overhaul at the tune of 150 to 250K or more for the turbine. Wow, that is really saving money and economically prudent. Not sure I would want to be facing that prospect as a business case. The Hiller, all Hillers, never run out of time, you simply replace those components as they run out of time and keep going. Also, the legacy models like the A/B and C all have provisions to get some of the required parts from your closest auto parts store. Not available on a Robinson or any production Helicopter that I know of, except the Hiller.
So, our experiences are quite different, should you or anyone like to discuss Hillers. The website hilleraircraft.com is up and running to support all of our valued customers, and those that are interested in Hillers and the Factory is once again open for business and will be back in production soon. If you need parts, service or just support, give us a call. The new team is ready to help.
Respectfully,
Captain Michael Tragarz
General Manager
Hiller Aircraft Corporation
Well, as the new General Manager of Hiller Aircraft Corporation and an owner and operator of 6 Hiller UH12E's, piston and turbine, I think I might be able to shed some light on the subject of Hillers. I am sure you are quite experienced, being an instructor and having time in the ships. I really can't comment on your experience as I am unable with the information provided to determine just how those ships you were flying were maintained.
However, I will say, that over the past 20 years, the customer support from the previous owners and managers of Hiller Aircraft was non-existent. Truly a shame and a travesty for the product. While the UH12a/b/c models were excellent aircraft, each with its own strengths, they were the foundation of the program and provided the path to many positive improvements leading to the workhorse of the fleet, the UH12E, E-L and L models. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, performance for performance: nothing can out work a Hiller. I am fond of saying that if I thought I could get away with it, I would "Paint it Green and slap a Yellow Deer on its side". But that just about sums it up.
I have many hours, and days, flying the Hiller operationally, on actual flight missions, ranging from search and rescue to Ag applications. I can tell you, from my seat, if one takes care to preform the proper maintenance, per the manual, then the Hiller provides a superior up-time mission availability of any Helicopter in its category, class and market. It has never let me down. There are many signs, long before failure, of pending issues that need resolution. If you keep a sharp eye out during pre-flight and post-flight inspections and address the issues as they appear, this Helicopter will never let you down either. Of course, this also requires the support of the factory which we are addressing now. Simply go to our new website www.hilleraircraft.com and you will see the improvements to date. More to come.
I am happy you enjoy the R22 for training, even here are Hiller, while we are focused on training pilots to be Hiller pilots, we recognize that the truly rounded pilot will need some Robby time. However, if I am not wrong, you are speaking to people not running a flight school but general users. So, one last important point I would like to make before I conclude. Something to consider when making your choice, the Robinson aircraft are only good for 2200 hours or 12 years, whichever comes first. Unless you intend to fly your aircraft almost 200 hours a year, which few general aviation operators do, you will run into to the 12 year issue. Just think, you can purchase an R22, R44, R66, fly it 100 hours and then put it away, In 12 years, its done, full overhaul at the tune of 150 to 250K or more for the turbine. Wow, that is really saving money and economically prudent. Not sure I would want to be facing that prospect as a business case. The Hiller, all Hillers, never run out of time, you simply replace those components as they run out of time and keep going. Also, the legacy models like the A/B and C all have provisions to get some of the required parts from your closest auto parts store. Not available on a Robinson or any production Helicopter that I know of, except the Hiller.
So, our experiences are quite different, should you or anyone like to discuss Hillers. The website hilleraircraft.com is up and running to support all of our valued customers, and those that are interested in Hillers and the Factory is once again open for business and will be back in production soon. If you need parts, service or just support, give us a call. The new team is ready to help.
Respectfully,
Captain Michael Tragarz
General Manager
Hiller Aircraft Corporation
