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PHI Crash in Louisiana Jan 2009 - 8 Dead, 1 Injured

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PHI Crash in Louisiana Jan 2009 - 8 Dead, 1 Injured

Old 19th Feb 2009, 00:55
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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buckeem,
That is correct. A speed restriction of 109kts is mentioned in the text.
The text from sox6 sums it up.

TheVelvetGlove, yes, the glass ones are laminated and heated.
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 07:31
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA - Texas
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Bird Strike Is New Suspect in Helicopter Crash - WSJ.com
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 07:38
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: 3rd Coast, USA
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Other recomended V-Speeds

I understand that is correct. However, I am interested in the V-speeds for something other than cast acrylic. Did the CCS list any other recommended V-speeds for Stretched or Glass?

Is there a reason that no one will post the CCS so that it can be read as published?

Last edited by buckeem; 19th Feb 2009 at 07:42. Reason: Further Clarification
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 08:47
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Swamp 76
Don't forget that with 2 engines at idle there is no warning horn. No ENG OUT, no LOW ROTOR.
I would think the Engine Out audio would activate if the engines ran down below 66%N1 with the weight on wheels switch inactive? During a dual flameout drill in the simulator both engine out audios annunciate passing 66%N1.
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 12:29
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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buckeem,
My reading of the AOL is that the stretched acrylic and glass are the same restriction for speed.
The only reason I have not posted it is cos I don't know how to...
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 14:19
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
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The Governor: A quick question, does this occur, not with a flameout, but with both engine levers pulled back to at least the idle position?


Just wondering. Hope WPB is nice and warm, you git!!!
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 16:35
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Back in the cold now unfortunately.

The eng out audio will sound if the eng control levers are retarded to idle in flight. When carrying out auto's with the eng control levers pulled back to illustrate the rotor rpm the eng out annuciates at 66%N1. Would do the same if both T-handles were retarded.
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 17:50
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: florida
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Directly from the S-76C++ flight manual

The NO. 1 or NO. 2 ENG OUT - RESET TONE warning light on the master
warning panels (Figure 1-93) will go on and an alternating tone (550 Hz and 700
Hz) will be heard in the headset when the DECU engine failure detection logic
detects an engine out condition for that engine or when N
1 for the corresponding

engine drops to 48%




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Old 19th Feb 2009, 18:02
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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I'm curious as the position of the rotor disk in cruise - how far down is it with respect to the fuselage - that is, doesn't it provide some protection from a bird coming at the machine from directly in front, level with the top of the windshield?
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 18:30
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Sorry, thinking about a C+ and talking about a ++. My mistake.

I would expect no warning in this scenario in a C+.

Shawn: I've had too many birdstrikes and seen first hand that, no, the disc is no protection.
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 18:44
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Swamp76, just out of interest, you say you have had a few birdstrikes. can you say what phase of flight and level/height/speed you were at when it occurred?
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 19:40
  #232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Thought on possible strike angle

Is this a plausible scenario? A bird of considerable size, hits the window near the center post and towards the top. The force of the impact pushes in the window, and or center post in, leaving an air gap. Due to the sloping angle with the instrument panel acting as a brace, and with the oncoming force of the 160 mph winds, it in effect, acts as a funnel that shoots the bird straight up to the inside top of the cockpit.

The only reason I am throwing this out there, is, it seems to me, in my uneducated opinion, that regardless of the initial angle of impact, the equal and opposite reaction would be altered somewhat due to the cockpit structure. This due to the center post losing its structural support strength by removing the glass. In addition a somwhat
cushioning effect of the more pliable acrylic windshield.

This is a good link for the business office of a S-76 (???model) http://www.sikorskyshares.com/s76cockpitvr.html

Last edited by buckeem; 19th Feb 2009 at 19:57. Reason: addtional thought
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 22:01
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Bird Strikes are usually messy especially those that penetrate the windshields with lots of bird stuff every where.
No evidence of a bird strike has been found and they are scraping the windshields, center post, cb panels ,looking for bird DNA.
That was over a week ago and nothing has been found or identified yet.
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 22:18
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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At the risk of exposing my identity to plenty of people:

Hit a hawk with a 76 a few days ago, sparrow(?) yesterday. Saw the hawk in time to pull up and was able to alter the impact to the nose, about 6 inches ahead of the windshield. Bird goo from point of impact to the rotor head. Took a long time to wash off. Impact at approx 145 KIAS, 800'. Impact was very loud and broke the left wiper.

The little one was just like a big bug. No time to see it, just a bloody mess in the center of the copilot's windshield. He didn't notice until he looked up.

All others were too long ago to recall the details (longer than this tour :-).
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 22:37
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Remember guys, the ECL's would not have to come all the way back to IDLE. If they even came out of the "fully open" position it might cause the torques to go to zero and the NR to wind down . Unlike our fixed-wing brethren, helicopter throttles only have one working position: FULL OPEN. Anything in between can be considered OFF (or IDLE but in any case no power is delivered to the MR to sustain flight). Is the C++ any different?

Hypothetically: So the windshield post fails and the windscreens fail inward, knocking the ECL's back "just out" of the fully-open position. Off go the torques, down goes the NR, but the crew is preoccupied with the windshield failure and doesn't get any immediate notice of LOW RPM or ENG FAIL (because the N1's are still above 66%) until it's too late.

We can only imagine how confusing, chaotic and disorienting it must have been in that cockpit from the time of the "loud noise" (whatever it was) to the crash.

By the way, if memory serves, the S-76 crew was not restricted to 700' outbound from the base. Unless I'm mistaken, the general rule is "500' inbound, 700' or higher outbound."

Helicopter pilots will give you a million reasons they like to fly low...why it's even necessary.
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 23:32
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Are they looking for or trying to differentiate the DNA?

Granted, we do not know at this time. The first responders did not treat the accident site with kid gloves. In the pictures that I have of the accident site, you cannot see center post attached the ship. Most likely walked on and left soaking in the marsh for two days. Then after the second responders left, the cabin and cockpit are areas are completely decimated. They even repositioned the tail section.
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Old 20th Feb 2009, 00:47
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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buckeem,
That is a C+ office.

FH1100 Pilot, rotorbrent, The Governor,
I get the bit about the engine out warnings, but what about the Low Rotor RPM warning? I appreciate that the guys would have been pre-occupied with the chaos, but that circuit is independant of the engine warnings is it not?
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Old 20th Feb 2009, 03:03
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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There is no Low Rotor warning system on any of the S-76 series aircraft.
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Old 20th Feb 2009, 03:20
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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A quick search of the NTSB data base shows 11 accidents since 1970involving bird strikes with helicopters. In most of them the pilot(s) was in some way incapacitated or unable to react in time to prevent the outcome.
They were geographically spread all over the place. The most common situation is that they nearly all happened below 1000 feet.

Keep your eyes open friends.
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Old 20th Feb 2009, 04:44
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Louisiana, USA
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I work in the GOM for a small operator. And in the last 3 years we have had 2 bird strikes. One on a 206L4 in cruise flight around 800 feet agl inshore in which the bird came down thru the rotor system and smacked dead center into the servo cowling and left a hell of a dent and mess and cracked some of the underlying support structure of the cowl. To those not familiar with the 206 series, the servo cowling is the forward most cowling on the aircraft that hinges up and forward. Its right above the pilots head.

Second was to one of our Bell 407's. Again in cruise flight around 800-1000 feet. Bird went into the area above the transmission cowling and the rotor head impacting somewhere on the pitch change links. No damage to the aircraft, but I found dark bird feathers and lots of guts all over the p/c links, mast, main rotor head, transmission, transmission deck all the way back to the vertical stabilizer. From the size of what was left, I figured it was either a large crow or a turkey buzzard. Imagine throwing a bird into a food processor and then chucking the contents down the transmission cowling. Stunk to high heaven.

I had a close encounter with an American Bald Eagle in the area near NAS New Orleans. I was riding copilot seat doing track and balance work with a RADS system and we were in a high traffic area near the Air Station heading back to base around 700 ft agl with some readings. I looked up from my rads box and saw this rather large bird @ 12:00 and close in same altitude. The pilot was looking for military traffic advised to us from Navy tower out his side window. If we stayed on course and altitude this bird would have been in our laps. I yelled "break right right now!" over the icom and the pilot yanked it hard over. I watched this large white headed brown bird cruise past my window pretty close aboard. He didn't dive away like most birds do. Eagles are top predators and don't seem to scared of bigger birds like us. If that bird which averages between 7 and 15 lbs had hit us in the windscreen, I don't think I would be writing this right now. Birds in south Louisiana are a constant hazard. Stay safe.
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