PHI Crash in Louisiana Jan 2009 - 8 Dead, 1 Injured
At such a low altitude, the pilots would have little time to respond to such a near-shutdown of engines.
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Just what the Lawyers have been waiting for!
An airframe that has been modified from standard is a legal dream [and a goldmine].
No wonder the powers are very very quiet.
An airframe that has been modified from standard is a legal dream [and a goldmine].
No wonder the powers are very very quiet.
What if the original glass windscreens had not been replaced? Are the plastic windscreens as strong as the glass re bird strikes?
Let's hear about test data for the plastic vice the glass before we get too carried away.
But.....if there is a difference and the plastic are shown to be less able to withstand a bird strike....then it is a good case for the lawyers who sue the operator in the name of the dead.
Let's hear about test data for the plastic vice the glass before we get too carried away.
But.....if there is a difference and the plastic are shown to be less able to withstand a bird strike....then it is a good case for the lawyers who sue the operator in the name of the dead.
The relative strength of glass v plastic is not necessarily an issue. What is relevant is whether the plastic screens meet FAA requirements and are approved for the purpose.
In the case of the AS365 Eurocopter offers plastic or glass, glass being normal when screen
de-ice is required.
In the case of the AS365 Eurocopter offers plastic or glass, glass being normal when screen
de-ice is required.
I really begin to wonder what was on the CVR?
If it was in fact a Bird Strike that caused the problem....were both pilot's incapacitated? Were they communicating to one another about the problem? Was just one pilot heard on the CVR? Were there any cockpit actions taken....flight controls moved....switches thrown...that would show a pilot or both were still able to respond?
If it was in fact a Bird Strike that caused the problem....were both pilot's incapacitated? Were they communicating to one another about the problem? Was just one pilot heard on the CVR? Were there any cockpit actions taken....flight controls moved....switches thrown...that would show a pilot or both were still able to respond?
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I can tell you from personal experience that when it comes to sounds and vibration analysis, those folks at the NTSB have really got it wired. Voice analysis from the CVR however, can unfortunately raise more questions than it answers, especially if it is an analog system (wind noise really messes things up there).
I suspect that the other systems were ruled out via the black box system analysis, hence the big mystery as to what brought it down, and that is of course assuming that all operating systems have a feed into the FDR. There are some big dam birds down that way, and hitting anything center mass on your window that weighs a couple pounds at 140 kts is always going to be dramatic. I am curious to see about the strengths of these modified wind screens, and if they can be shown to be a causal factor.
I would also like to know if the pilots were wearing helmets, with visors down? Are they even required to wear helmets?
Best of luck to the investigators.
I suspect that the other systems were ruled out via the black box system analysis, hence the big mystery as to what brought it down, and that is of course assuming that all operating systems have a feed into the FDR. There are some big dam birds down that way, and hitting anything center mass on your window that weighs a couple pounds at 140 kts is always going to be dramatic. I am curious to see about the strengths of these modified wind screens, and if they can be shown to be a causal factor.
I would also like to know if the pilots were wearing helmets, with visors down? Are they even required to wear helmets?
Best of luck to the investigators.
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Nobody wears helmets in the GOM, except for the Coast Guard and MMS operations. If a birdstrike did cause this accident, it's the first fatal accident I know of over the past 25+ years, with close to a million hours per year flown consistently. I've hit lots of birds, but never had one come inside. So far I've managed to avoid pelicans and buzzards.
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A friend of mine hit a duck right on the (glass-) windshield in a S76. Apart from a bloody mess, no real damage - was probably very well deflected.
On the other hand there was that incident in another company, same guy flew a Gulfstream 2 into something bigger on approach; one half of the bird went through the left engine, the other half came through the radome and penetrated the pressure bulkhead (!) behind the pedals (about $70k price tag on the repair btw.)
I guess my point is, that the question is at what angle the bird hits. But I feel safer behind glass, rather than plastic.
On the other hand there was that incident in another company, same guy flew a Gulfstream 2 into something bigger on approach; one half of the bird went through the left engine, the other half came through the radome and penetrated the pressure bulkhead (!) behind the pedals (about $70k price tag on the repair btw.)
I guess my point is, that the question is at what angle the bird hits. But I feel safer behind glass, rather than plastic.
Last edited by Phil77; 16th Feb 2009 at 16:14. Reason: spelling
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I can recall (in my younger years while still turning a wrench!), a VIP A model that took a seagull thru the pilots glass windshield and deposited the remains above the divan at Sta. 213. While the pilot was understandably shook up, al escaped without any serious harm.
Just heard a story about a 76 at night in West Palm experiencing a bird strike several years ago. Apparently it was bad enough to damage the center post and knock both t-handles back far enough to knock both DC gens off-line.
If anyone knows the details or can find them online they might share alot of similarities.
bb
If anyone knows the details or can find them online they might share alot of similarities.
bb
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In the back of my memory is an account of a 71A in Australia that hit a Pelican.
Apparently made quite a mess. Be interesting to know it that was plastic or glass screens.
Apparently made quite a mess. Be interesting to know it that was plastic or glass screens.
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bb in ca and unstable load, I told the story back at post #170. We had glass wind screens. Another bird strike we had hit the wind screen, ricocheted up into the rotor and the rotor then slapped it down through the roof into the cabin. Don't recall if the birds responsible were ever identified.
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In the not so distant past, PHI had a bird strike that busted the plastic windshield and pulled one throttle all the way back to idle in a 76. That aircraft was landed safely. If this 76 accident turns out to be a birdstrike, it will not be good for PHI, because they had first hand knowledge that the plastic windows do not provide sufficient protection for the throttle quadrants.
Also, it is a widely-known fact that there are many bird strikes each year in that bayou which is filled with millions of seemingly retarded migratory birds.
If it was a birdstrike, then I believe that this accident could have been prevented- if only operators were willing to accept the small extra weight that glass windows bring with them. But they receive pressure from the oil companies to carry as much weight as possible.
If Shell was really all about safety, they would allow pilots to download weight for CAT A take-offs.
Who is to blame for all these plastic windows on helicopters with overhead throttle quadrants? No doubt, a jury will decide.
God rest the the souls of all who were onboard.
Also, it is a widely-known fact that there are many bird strikes each year in that bayou which is filled with millions of seemingly retarded migratory birds.
If it was a birdstrike, then I believe that this accident could have been prevented- if only operators were willing to accept the small extra weight that glass windows bring with them. But they receive pressure from the oil companies to carry as much weight as possible.
If Shell was really all about safety, they would allow pilots to download weight for CAT A take-offs.
Who is to blame for all these plastic windows on helicopters with overhead throttle quadrants? No doubt, a jury will decide.
God rest the the souls of all who were onboard.
Assuming of course that these reports about Bird Strike possiblities are accurate, I remain a fan of the helmet and visor and this tradgedy gives me another reason. At least it might provide you a fighting chance and I guess we will never know if helmets may have provided enough protection for these guys so that they were then able to bring the aircraft back under control.
There have been bird penetrations of B206 cockpits, so speed is not always the culprit.
A possible cause of this accident it is yet another scenario that makes helmets the go...always. For me, anyways.
It also re-enforces my belief that throttles belong on the collective where they can be manipulated from the flight controls. The experiment with roof throttles should be over now, and the wheel re-invented to return them to the collective a la the EC145 v the BK117.
Condolences to those lost in this accident - no matter how unlikely we might argue it to have been. RIP. I hope they determine the cuase so that we may learn from it and help avoid the next one.
There have been bird penetrations of B206 cockpits, so speed is not always the culprit.
A possible cause of this accident it is yet another scenario that makes helmets the go...always. For me, anyways.
It also re-enforces my belief that throttles belong on the collective where they can be manipulated from the flight controls. The experiment with roof throttles should be over now, and the wheel re-invented to return them to the collective a la the EC145 v the BK117.
Condolences to those lost in this accident - no matter how unlikely we might argue it to have been. RIP. I hope they determine the cuase so that we may learn from it and help avoid the next one.
Last edited by helmet fire; 17th Feb 2009 at 04:55.
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(forgive me if I have missed something, I only read pages 1, 8 and subsequent)
Has any body started doing things differently as a result of this accident? (Yes, it is true, we do not KNOW what caused it) I would think that if I were flying in an area where birdstrikes are a more than average likelihood, I would be thinking Is there something I can do to reduce the risk? We have to learn something from this, as usually the safety manuals are written in red (blood) and we have a duty to ensure those people did not die for nothing.
Has any body started doing things differently as a result of this accident? (Yes, it is true, we do not KNOW what caused it) I would think that if I were flying in an area where birdstrikes are a more than average likelihood, I would be thinking Is there something I can do to reduce the risk? We have to learn something from this, as usually the safety manuals are written in red (blood) and we have a duty to ensure those people did not die for nothing.
What about the flock of Geese that took out the US Air Flight at 3000 feet for a starter?
80% of Bird Strikes occur below 1000 feet AGL but the majority of them are during landing and takeoffs at airports.
80% of all Bird Strikes go unreported.
Taken from BASH data.....
Some Myths
* Myth - Bird strikes never occur at high altitudes,
* Fact - Over 1,300 bird strikes involving civil aircraft at heights above 5,000 feet AGL were reported from 1990-2003.
* Highest reported bird strike A 747 struck a large bird over the South African coast at 37,000 feet.
* Fact Migrating geese have been reported above the summit of Mt. Everest (29,035 ft.) and typically cross the Himalayas at altitudes above 30,000 feet.
80% of Bird Strikes occur below 1000 feet AGL but the majority of them are during landing and takeoffs at airports.
80% of all Bird Strikes go unreported.
Taken from BASH data.....
Some Myths
* Myth - Bird strikes never occur at high altitudes,
* Fact - Over 1,300 bird strikes involving civil aircraft at heights above 5,000 feet AGL were reported from 1990-2003.
* Highest reported bird strike A 747 struck a large bird over the South African coast at 37,000 feet.
* Fact Migrating geese have been reported above the summit of Mt. Everest (29,035 ft.) and typically cross the Himalayas at altitudes above 30,000 feet.
Last edited by SASless; 17th Feb 2009 at 11:57.
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Does anyone know if the helicopter was fitted with alternately flashing lights to warn birds away? Seen it on some Canadian Helicopters S-76 in Ontario.
Seems to work pretty well (unless you're overtaking the bird of course).
Seems to work pretty well (unless you're overtaking the bird of course).
Sven,
I will spell it out for you in simple terms....
ICAO, Boeing, and other studies show the probability of Bird Strikes increases as the frontal area of the aircraft increases, the closer one is to an airport, the lower one flies.
The most dangerous phase of flight is landing and taking off.
Cruise flight generates the fewest bird strikes.
80 percent of all bird strikes occur below 1000 feet AGL.
95 percent of all bird strikes occur below 2500 feet AGL.
80 percent of all bird strikes go unreported.
Highest recorded bird strike is 37,000 feet.
So Sven....if you can hit them at 37,000 feet.....there is no guarantee you can evade a bird strike altogether by flying "high". That being said....flying at 5,000 feet or higher does mitigate your chances of whacking a Bird.
Shawn is right....flying with a landing light on helps deter birds....the flashing light system is better than a single steady light.
Avoiding thermals is another way of decreasing your chances of smacking a soaring bird....Hawks, Buzzards, Eagles. (If that sounds silly....talk to a glider pilot who will be able to explain both thermals and soaring birds to you.)
I will spell it out for you in simple terms....
ICAO, Boeing, and other studies show the probability of Bird Strikes increases as the frontal area of the aircraft increases, the closer one is to an airport, the lower one flies.
The most dangerous phase of flight is landing and taking off.
Cruise flight generates the fewest bird strikes.
80 percent of all bird strikes occur below 1000 feet AGL.
95 percent of all bird strikes occur below 2500 feet AGL.
80 percent of all bird strikes go unreported.
Highest recorded bird strike is 37,000 feet.
So Sven....if you can hit them at 37,000 feet.....there is no guarantee you can evade a bird strike altogether by flying "high". That being said....flying at 5,000 feet or higher does mitigate your chances of whacking a Bird.
Shawn is right....flying with a landing light on helps deter birds....the flashing light system is better than a single steady light.
Avoiding thermals is another way of decreasing your chances of smacking a soaring bird....Hawks, Buzzards, Eagles. (If that sounds silly....talk to a glider pilot who will be able to explain both thermals and soaring birds to you.)
Is the throttle issue not something of a red herring.
It would appear to me that crew incapacitation or the inability of the crew to react in time was the real problem. I seem to remember that tests following the loss of the Bristow Wessex showed that a failure to lower the lever within 9 seconds lead to an irrecoverable
situation. I dont know what the time for the S76 would be.
A double engine failure due to any cause should be surviveable. If this was a strike which did not incapacitate the crew then the mess in the front and distraction could have lead to a late reaction from them.
If the crew were taken out by the strike, even if both engines were running perfectly the aircraft would still have been lost.
Just out of interest we had one a pilot who flew with a helmet on the North Sea. Management asked him to stop as it was "upsetting the passengers". Maybe the correct response would have been to insist that all crews wore helmets so the pax became used to it and it was no longer an issue. No different to everybody wearing immersion suits.
It would appear to me that crew incapacitation or the inability of the crew to react in time was the real problem. I seem to remember that tests following the loss of the Bristow Wessex showed that a failure to lower the lever within 9 seconds lead to an irrecoverable
situation. I dont know what the time for the S76 would be.
A double engine failure due to any cause should be surviveable. If this was a strike which did not incapacitate the crew then the mess in the front and distraction could have lead to a late reaction from them.
If the crew were taken out by the strike, even if both engines were running perfectly the aircraft would still have been lost.
Just out of interest we had one a pilot who flew with a helmet on the North Sea. Management asked him to stop as it was "upsetting the passengers". Maybe the correct response would have been to insist that all crews wore helmets so the pax became used to it and it was no longer an issue. No different to everybody wearing immersion suits.