AW139 proposed for UK Police Air Support Units
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AW139 proposed for UK Police Air Support Units
Any thoughts on AgustaWestland's proposal?
Police Aviation - AgustaWestland looks to UK Police Market for AW139 sales | Shephard Group
Only issue(s) I can potentially see are the costs and availability of LZs in tight spots. Admittedly, the Japanese police and Chinese police ASUs do have some 139 as well as the Sultan of Oman's police but they operate in bigger areas.
The only force(s) in UK I could see potentially having it are Dyfedd Powys (their AW109E covers a very large area and mountainous) and Strathclyde or Cardiff , where for the latter two forces I guess the 139 could complement the 135 for SWAT and SAR/EMS purposes?
Police Aviation - AgustaWestland looks to UK Police Market for AW139 sales | Shephard Group
Only issue(s) I can potentially see are the costs and availability of LZs in tight spots. Admittedly, the Japanese police and Chinese police ASUs do have some 139 as well as the Sultan of Oman's police but they operate in bigger areas.
The only force(s) in UK I could see potentially having it are Dyfedd Powys (their AW109E covers a very large area and mountainous) and Strathclyde or Cardiff , where for the latter two forces I guess the 139 could complement the 135 for SWAT and SAR/EMS purposes?
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Apart from the minor detail of the dual controls..........
While they are removable, you can't actually take them out because Agusta hasn't yet designed, much less produced the plugs to be fitted when they are out!!!!
Unless, of course, they also want to make police ops two flight crew........
While they are removable, you can't actually take them out because Agusta hasn't yet designed, much less produced the plugs to be fitted when they are out!!!!
Unless, of course, they also want to make police ops two flight crew........
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Hell, if you can afford to pay for and run an AW139, the salary for a second pilot is peanuts. I am not sure, but I suspect that under JAR/EASA rules a second pilot will be mandatory. Basically the UK CAA follow EASA/JAA for state aircraft.
What ought to happen is that a police force or Consortium decides what it wants do with its Air Support. That requirement then enables you to define what sort of aircraft to buy.
In reality, I have yet to see it done that way at all.
An AW139 would give you all sorts of extra capability: whether the police need that is another question.
For a place like D-P, if they had the extra money and the need, the best thing to do could well be to have 2 helicopters based in different parts of their patch, because of its size.
But there are all sorts of other ways to spend more money - you could start by extending operating hours with your existing aircraft, which would be an option for most ASUs.
At the moment though, most ASUs are struggling to maintain their existing budget, never mind get a major increase.
It feels like bad timing to me. A bit like the marketing of the EH101 with its 30+ pax capacity to the offshore market. It became available just at the time that the number of people working on an offshore platform reduced markedly. I am open to correction, but I believe it nver sold any into that market.
What ought to happen is that a police force or Consortium decides what it wants do with its Air Support. That requirement then enables you to define what sort of aircraft to buy.
In reality, I have yet to see it done that way at all.
An AW139 would give you all sorts of extra capability: whether the police need that is another question.
For a place like D-P, if they had the extra money and the need, the best thing to do could well be to have 2 helicopters based in different parts of their patch, because of its size.
But there are all sorts of other ways to spend more money - you could start by extending operating hours with your existing aircraft, which would be an option for most ASUs.
At the moment though, most ASUs are struggling to maintain their existing budget, never mind get a major increase.
It feels like bad timing to me. A bit like the marketing of the EH101 with its 30+ pax capacity to the offshore market. It became available just at the time that the number of people working on an offshore platform reduced markedly. I am open to correction, but I believe it nver sold any into that market.
Avoid imitations
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I am not sure, but I suspect that under JAR/EASA rules a second pilot will be mandatory.
Only a few years back police pilots such as Bertie Thruster and I were flying an unstabilised "floppy stick" helicopter single pilot by night, to an unlit base landing site, which was interesting at times, despite both of us being previously trained to fly military unstabilised SE helicopters IFR/IMC. There were some changes requiring at least a SAS not too long ago for police aircraft. IMHO it's a good thing that some of these things are now being introduced.
Pending EASA rules:
The requirements for two pilots in the EASA Operational Rules are (apparently) substantially the same as the JAR rule (contained in JAR-OPS 3.940(b)(2) and (3)) - i.e a configuration of more than 19 pax or, for IFR, a configuration of more than 9 pax.
A pilot flying SPIFR requires additional training elements and there are minimum qualifications. The helicopter would have to be certificated for flight in IMC and meet the additional requirements for SPIFR.
There is no requirements for two pilots other than that stated above or when required by certification - i.e. there is no requirement related to mass.
Jim
The requirements for two pilots in the EASA Operational Rules are (apparently) substantially the same as the JAR rule (contained in JAR-OPS 3.940(b)(2) and (3)) - i.e a configuration of more than 19 pax or, for IFR, a configuration of more than 9 pax.
A pilot flying SPIFR requires additional training elements and there are minimum qualifications. The helicopter would have to be certificated for flight in IMC and meet the additional requirements for SPIFR.
There is no requirements for two pilots other than that stated above or when required by certification - i.e. there is no requirement related to mass.
Jim
Hi heliski22,
the world is living from changes ;-)
Iīm by now used to fly police missions with two pilots - and if youīre flying SWAT-missions, I think its also necessary cause I would like my Co to land in case I catch a bullet, which would not necessary kill me straight away - but would, when I stop flying the bird - or vice versa, I would land the bird when I am the sheduled Co on that mission and my pilot catches a bullet.
Different to GB, in Germany the policepilots are also police officers, so its our job to fight crime and terrorism - which means, that there might arouse the situation, where a hit is not only slightly possible....
We use the EC155 for SWAT-missions, but wouldnīt mind to have a 139 available, which has more payload, hence more possibilities to fit armour and more survivability in case of an engine hit.
It all pays off, if you have successful missions so.
Greetings Flying Bull
the world is living from changes ;-)
Iīm by now used to fly police missions with two pilots - and if youīre flying SWAT-missions, I think its also necessary cause I would like my Co to land in case I catch a bullet, which would not necessary kill me straight away - but would, when I stop flying the bird - or vice versa, I would land the bird when I am the sheduled Co on that mission and my pilot catches a bullet.
Different to GB, in Germany the policepilots are also police officers, so its our job to fight crime and terrorism - which means, that there might arouse the situation, where a hit is not only slightly possible....
We use the EC155 for SWAT-missions, but wouldnīt mind to have a 139 available, which has more payload, hence more possibilities to fit armour and more survivability in case of an engine hit.
It all pays off, if you have successful missions so.
Greetings Flying Bull
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Never flown in one, but do I remember hearing that other Police Units have previously rejected the aircraft, ( amongst other reasons ) because of the restricted headroom in the rear cabin when compared to the EC135 or MD902 ?
Hi Coconutty,
which one havenīt you flown?
The EC155 or the AW139?
Donīt mind the headroom in the EC155 - the guys are sitting in the comfy seats until short prior disembarking.
Our 100 kg + SWAT guys havenīt complained yet
Greeting Flying Bull
YouTube - SEK Einsatz in Paderborn am NRW Tag (26.8.2007)
which one havenīt you flown?
The EC155 or the AW139?
Donīt mind the headroom in the EC155 - the guys are sitting in the comfy seats until short prior disembarking.
Our 100 kg + SWAT guys havenīt complained yet
Greeting Flying Bull
YouTube - SEK Einsatz in Paderborn am NRW Tag (26.8.2007)
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Having some experience of police aviation and of the AW139, I would say that the 139 is a nice aircraft, but massive overkill for 99.5% of UK police aviation missions.
Most of the time, the aircraft is an observation, and command, control and communications platform. Unless things have markedly changed in the last year, the vast majority of UK police forces as a general rule do not do "SWAT". You simply dont need an aircraft that can carry 14/17 people.
Drawbacks -1. size (it wont fit in hangars or on helipads designed for a squirrel or an EC135, and wont be able to get into quite such tight spots for HEMS etc that you could get a 135 in)
2. Cost to buy 3. Cost to run 4. Training Cost.
There is just no way any police unit that cannot afford overtime when an observer or pilot is off sick, and quibbles about travel expenses to attend national training forums is ever going to contemplate taking on the expense of this machine.
It would be great if I am wrong - might get some freelancing in!!
Most of the time, the aircraft is an observation, and command, control and communications platform. Unless things have markedly changed in the last year, the vast majority of UK police forces as a general rule do not do "SWAT". You simply dont need an aircraft that can carry 14/17 people.
Drawbacks -1. size (it wont fit in hangars or on helipads designed for a squirrel or an EC135, and wont be able to get into quite such tight spots for HEMS etc that you could get a 135 in)
2. Cost to buy 3. Cost to run 4. Training Cost.
There is just no way any police unit that cannot afford overtime when an observer or pilot is off sick, and quibbles about travel expenses to attend national training forums is ever going to contemplate taking on the expense of this machine.
It would be great if I am wrong - might get some freelancing in!!