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R44 Raven II vs Older 206

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R44 Raven II vs Older 206

Old 19th Oct 2008, 19:38
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R44 Raven II vs Older 206

Question for all Ppruners as I have little Bell experience

There are many current cheap options to buy older 206's B3's (more expensive), B2's and B's...which brings them into the price range for purchase of private owners of new R44 RII's.

I would imagine running costs are massively different, but JR's appear to depreciate less (with the dreaded 12 year rebuild on R44 II's)

So my question is - as a private flyer would you buy a circa 1970's / 80's Jetranger or Robbie RII? Is there any major reason for buying a B3 over a B2 / B (other than power)?

Any help, sarcasm and wit most welcome!
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 20:49
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I've flown a R44, and found it to be the most hateful, diabolical, awful 'aircraft' I have ever encountered in my life.

It might be relatively cheap to run etc, but I hated it on a cellular level.

Many of you may have worked out from my username that Im a plank by trade but have flown other copters that I do like and get on with quite well.

Do yourself a favour, get a Jet Ranger.... R44? I'd rather walk/swim.

Edit: Go on Im up for the receipt of sarcasm as well.
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 21:07
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I would go for the 206 B3. A good, well maintained one is much, much more reliable than an RII. I have flown old poorly maintained B2's that were more reliable than a RII. If I had to buy a robbo though, I would but a RI, NOT a RII. Too many problems with RII in my experience. But thats just my opinion...

BC
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 21:25
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A 206 BIII without doubt. I have just bought one (May 2008) and they are excellent. I mean no dis-respect to the the Robinson, but IMHO they are a different class of machine.

Joel
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 21:31
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Thumbs up Which one ??? NO -debate,

Hello,no question here.Get the best206 B3 you can afford and you'll never look back.The 206 has history and is a real helicopter,not some disposible ,lightweight,check the blades EVERY time you fly it peice of junk that has somehow sliped thru the cracks and is called a helicopter.All R44s should still (and for ever) be in the restricted catagory .
Sure the J/R will be a little more costly to run but at the end of the year (or 12 ) won't be a lot in it and you will have the peice of mind that given proper care it will transport you and your pax safely and reliably for years and years as history has shown,and yes I like the 206.Done a lot of time in them and love the old girls.
50 hrs in R44s was 51 hrs to many.(have included the 1hr convincing to get me in the silly little thing).
GO Bell.
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 21:36
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An alternative worth considering

Take a look at an Enstrom 480B. For the same money, you might get a newer, lower time acft than the JR. Running costs should be a bit less due to lower parts costs in general. Performance numbers are close to the JR, and cabin layout vastly superior for an owner flown helicopter (IMHO). Also, safety record can be argued to be superior to either JR or R44, and LTE is virtually unheard of (unlike JR). You'll likely hear some negatives on the 480 from those with little experience with them, but most who actually have meaningful time in them are quite positive (myself included). OTOH, if you intend commercial operations, possibly with camera mounts, cargo hooks, etc, the JR will have many more options available. I have time in all three and the 480 wins hands down in my book.
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 22:05
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"but IMHO they are a different class of machine."............

Lets really compare eggs with eggs shall we?? A 4 seat piston heli and
a 5 seat turbine machine....

I just hope if you buy a B206 you dont mind writing large cheques...
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 22:31
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No time in a 44, but I do love the 206. It'll cost you double to operate, but a much more capable machine. If you have the money and buy it
"right", you'll do fine when you sell it. Get someone that really knows
their stuff to check it out before signing on the dotted line. There seems
to be quite a few available right, but prices are holding steady. After
the last couple of weeks, though, you might get a bargain!
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Old 19th Oct 2008, 22:37
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I would say a factor in the decision should be if you intend to charter it out at all, which is where the 206 beats the R44.

As with all aircraft, the purchase price is only part of the story, the running costs and maintenance factors should play a major consideration.

If you toast the turbine in a 206 you could buy a 44 for the price of the replacement turbine (not that you would do this, but one of the risks to consider if you don't have buckets of cash to splash out).

If you can afford it, go for the 206, though I would say if your budget only allows for 44, don't stop from getting it because it is not a turbine.

If it is well maintained it can be as safe and rewarding as a 206.

I would say buy the aircraft that allows you to afford the most time using it, based on mission practicality and cost. No point having a pretty machine just sitting on the ground....
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 00:25
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EN48, as always I am interested in your knowledge of all things Emstrom. In particular this time it is your comment on the cabin layout is better. I can see that this is true for leg room and visibility for the pax, but you get one less seat which is critical for many who typically want to carry 4 pax plus the pilot? Also I think the 206 baggage compartment with extender can fit at least a couple of sets of golf clubs. How big is the baggage compartment in the 480?

Cheers
JohnO
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 00:34
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Why R44 - Faster (5-15kts), AVGAS 60 LPH Vs JETA1 100+ LPH, Obviously a lot cheaper per hour to run (half the cost), Piston engine Vs Turbine (see above re turbine cost), brand spanking new Raven I Vs 30+ year old B206, cheaper component costs on average.... cost effective platform.

Why B206 - Extra seat, Turbine power, big baggage compartment compared to under seat boxes in R44, better utility/camera ship/airwork etc. platform (can remove seats, sling more, nose mount camera etc), more payload......

As a private buyer.... unless you have the extra coin to spend on B206, R44 is more economical for what you want to do.
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 02:04
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Go for the B206. High inertia blades which don't peel is a good enough reason. There are many others.

If you are considering R44 or B206, I presume you can afford either.

From a flyer's point of view, the T-cyclic is my pet hate. It induces vertical as well as lateral movements and does not hover smoothly like a floor cyclic. I actually learnt on the R22/R44 but subsequently found out how stable floor cyclics are (eg H269, B206, EC120, AS350).

Get a B206 with high skids. Your stinger sits higher off the ground and there's more clearance landing on tall grass or bushland. They're also a lot stronger than Robbie skids - the latter crumple easily on impact (I've seen the results, not a pretty sight).

If you're getting a (used) B2, get a friend who's an experienced B206 engineer to calculate the replacement and future running costs so you can budget for it (no nasty surprises there).

I would go a bit further than 350boy - I believe R44s should be in the experimental category.
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 02:24
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JohnO,

Both the 480 and 206 are certified with 5 seats, but these are in a different configuration in each acft. In neither case would it seem prudent to fill all the seats except with small people and a small fuel load. There is no "broom closet" in the 480 dividing the cabin into front and rear compartments, as in the 206. The result is two relatively widely spaced front seats with much more room laterally than in the 206, and 3 seats behind these. I would say that if one consistently carries 3 or more pax (plus pilot) the 206 may have an edge. For up to two pax (plus pilot) the 480 has more room for all. The 480 may have more flexibility in that the cabin has a relatively large flat floor, and all but one seat may be easily removed, permitting several arrangements for seats and cargo in the cabin. The baggage area in the 480 is relatively large, but oddly shapped, however it is also available with an extender option. The standard baggage area is rated at 150 lbs, with an additional 50 lbs for the extended area. As for golf clubs in the baggage area, not being a golfer, I cant say. Each acft involves some tradeoffs re seating and baggage area, with neither IMO winning in every case. At 6ft 1in and 200 lbs, and one who rarely flies with more than 3 total on board, I'll take the 480 every time. In the 206, a larger pilot is cramped all the time, even with no pax.

Re the R44, IMO, too much is made of the T-bar cyclic; in my experience, one adapts to this quite naturally in about 2 minutes and forgets it thereafter. Might be different if you were frequently flying other acft in addition to the R44.

As far as robustness is concerned, both the 206 and 480 seem to be in a different world from the R44. In fairness, however, the instances of mechanical failure on the R44 seem to be less than one might expect based on the accident reports.

Last edited by EN48; 20th Oct 2008 at 02:43.
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 02:43
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Thanks EN48,

With regard to 5 pob, I'm thinking one wife and 3 kids who would only add up to about 290 lb plus me makes a mere 470. So weight is not so much the problem as seats and baggage volume.

Looking at the numbers for the 480B:
Useful load: 1180 lb
1 x family 470 + full fuel 600lb and 110lb left over for baggage!

Not sure what the appeal of the JR was now that I am aware of the 5 seat option.
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 02:48
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I'm thinking one wife and 3 kids who would only add up to about 290 lb plus me makes a mere 470
The 480 will work quite well is this case, IMO.
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 12:59
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I've been looking at the light helicopter market and I'm intrigued to see what will happen to prices in the near future.

On paper the R44 might well tick a lot of boxes, but the Robinsons do seem to divide opinions. If you reallly do want one then 'new' can't make sense - the depreciation could be horrendous. I think there'll be a lot of bargains in the 'nearly new' market.

But, tend to agree with the general sentiment here, Jet Ranger or 480/480B. Initial and running costs might be higher, but buy wisely in hard times and your capital should be better protected.
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 13:00
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Chaps and Chap-esses (?)

I've owned both the 480 and now a 206. They are both fantastic machines. The choice of which one is "right" for you is an individual one. I operated the 480 for two tears quite happily but needed that extra seating capacity hence the move to the 206.

I cannot slate the R44 as I've never owned one or even flown one, but my recommend is still the 206.

As for writing out big cheques on a 206, I haven't had mine long enough to have a bad experience, but if you buy it right up front, you should be minimising the chances of big bills later. Either way, it's a heli, and heli's cost money to operate. End of.

If anyone wants an owner operator comparison of a 480 v 206, just ask or PM me.

Joel
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 13:46
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Don't listen to the people who tell you a 44 is crap, they are good machines and do exactly what they are build for and what you are paying for.

I do like the JR as well, i think they are both great machines.

If you are looking for a workhorse the JR is probably the better choice, but just for buzzing around and burning holes in the sky??? Why spend the extra money???

If you want to spend extra money, what about a MD500 ;-) Cooler than both, JR or 44......Get the Magnum PI paintjob!!!
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 14:09
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JohnO

While the 480 has much to like, one area where the 206 may win hands down is "supportability." The 206 is perhaps the best known and most numerous light turbine on the planet, with support widely available. Enstrom has been around for decades and is quite well supported in some parts of the globe, but probably not as well as the 206. Support in my part of the US is superb; not sure what you can expect in your corner of the world.
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Old 20th Oct 2008, 15:03
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Seating layout for the Enstrom 480B. If anyone's interested.



Monk
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