NTSB says EMS accident rate is too high
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Jackonicko
I believe your post of 14 Oct at 15:19 hits the nail on the head. I think the complexity of this HEMS stuff needs to be scaled back or we all go to two-pilot, NVG, IFR, etc.
Unfortunately Gomer probably has it right when he mentions none of this is going to happen in our lifetime - but I believe weather standards may continue to go up.
WIII
I believe your post of 14 Oct at 15:19 hits the nail on the head. I think the complexity of this HEMS stuff needs to be scaled back or we all go to two-pilot, NVG, IFR, etc.
Unfortunately Gomer probably has it right when he mentions none of this is going to happen in our lifetime - but I believe weather standards may continue to go up.
WIII
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There are a whole host of things that come with twin engine helicopters, if they are treated as such properly. More than 5 hours of training is needed to come to grips with the complexities of single engine failures, especially if Category A procedures are included. AFCS operation also takes quite a bit of getting used to, and the AFCS and autopilot need to be used all the time, not just as a crutch when things aren't going well. More than 5 hours of training for someone new to a complex multi-engine helicopter is definitely needed.
A good case can be made that the relatively small number of takeoffs at scenes compared to total takeoffs would allow Category A performance to be waived for scene takeoffs, or at least some other guidance given on how to best use the OEI capability if needed. (Sorry but this isn't well stated- the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet this morning).
A good case can be made that the relatively small number of takeoffs at scenes compared to total takeoffs would allow Category A performance to be waived for scene takeoffs, or at least some other guidance given on how to best use the OEI capability if needed. (Sorry but this isn't well stated- the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet this morning).
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Have been following with interest the discussion around the EMS in the US in this thread, my opinion is the following:
- It´s very very tragic will all this resent EMS accidents and everything possible should be done to stop this negative trend (i.e. immediate and long term actions)
- the goal in any (EMS) flight operation have to be that, one single fatal accident is unacceptable
After having being involved in the HEMS in Europe I somehow have come up to the following:
- In Europe the HEMS flight operations is very “regulation/authority driven”
- In the US the EMS flight operations seems to be very “market driven”
I have many times been thinking that a system that should be somewhere between the US and European system could be a perfect solution (also when considering the long terms effects). On one hand one accident is too much but on the other hand someone has to pay for every flight in one form or another (free competition or government founded).
I think that the solution for safer EMS operations in the US consists of many factors that are involving some rather tuff and hard changes, ranging from customers to management to pilots to equipment (if the solution would have been very simple it should have been made a long time ago already J). Without knowing to much accurate details about the US EMS operations I have noticed the following:
As I said earlier, these are only my opinions!
Cheers,
Vertolot
- It´s very very tragic will all this resent EMS accidents and everything possible should be done to stop this negative trend (i.e. immediate and long term actions)
- the goal in any (EMS) flight operation have to be that, one single fatal accident is unacceptable
After having being involved in the HEMS in Europe I somehow have come up to the following:
- In Europe the HEMS flight operations is very “regulation/authority driven”
- In the US the EMS flight operations seems to be very “market driven”
I have many times been thinking that a system that should be somewhere between the US and European system could be a perfect solution (also when considering the long terms effects). On one hand one accident is too much but on the other hand someone has to pay for every flight in one form or another (free competition or government founded).
I think that the solution for safer EMS operations in the US consists of many factors that are involving some rather tuff and hard changes, ranging from customers to management to pilots to equipment (if the solution would have been very simple it should have been made a long time ago already J). Without knowing to much accurate details about the US EMS operations I have noticed the following:
- Flying VFR at night unaided in areas with very little or no visual references, should have in my opinion minimas like, Cloud base 2500-3000 feet and visibility of at least 10 km (yes, I know that with these minimas you will have to cancel a lot of missions during night time). The minimas could be slightly lower if you operate over cities and highly populated areas with a lot of illuminated ground references or if you have NVG.
- Before going on a night mission you should have the time to spend some 5 minutes extra on getting accurate weather information and talking to a meteorologist. Getting some accurate weather information over the region you are operating in.i.e. how fronts are moving and when they are expected to move in etc. A very good briefing and understanding of the weather in a big enough area is important. You might get a new mission during the flight with a higher priority or at the accident site you might get the destination hospital and to be able to make a go/no-go decision you must have good accurate weather information.
- If I had understood right, the systems in the US works so that the first EMS helicopter on accident site will get the job. With this time pressure 1 minute could be the difference of getting the job or not. In general in HEMS it will very seldom makes a difference in helping a patient if you come 5 minutes earlier or later (it can sometimes, but very seldom). Very often there is already ground units on the accidents sites before a helicopter reach it. In this terms there should be the required time to get accurate weather etc. information before making go/no-go decision. If you are competing with other EMS helicopters to be first on the accident site it looks like you have no time to make a good go/no-go decision based on accurate facts.
- Have Standard operating procedures (SOP) for the operations. They should not be written with the intention of satisfying any inspector from the Authorities. They should be written for the pilots and should be as simple and clear as possible. They should be practised in simulator at least twice a year representing scenarios in the operational area.
As I said earlier, these are only my opinions!
Cheers,
Vertolot
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Vertalot, a couple of corrections. It's not the first helicopter on the scene. In theory, the nearest helicopter should be called, but often it depends on the whim of the local EMS dispatcher or crew. I've never heard of multiple helicopters launching on their own, like wrecker trucks.
Talking to a meteorologist and getting accurate weather information isn't an option. The flight service station system has been privatized, and the last time I called for weather information, the briefer was in Minnesota, a couple of thousand miles away, and had no more information than I could get from reading the METARs. It's not possible to talk to an actual meteorologist, just someone in a windowless room miles away who just reads the data on his computer screen. With METAR stations as much as a hundred miles apart, the only way to get accurate weather information is to go look at it. That's the result of privatization and using the lowest bidder, or more often now, no bidder at all, just whomever has made the largest 'campaign contributions'.
Talking to a meteorologist and getting accurate weather information isn't an option. The flight service station system has been privatized, and the last time I called for weather information, the briefer was in Minnesota, a couple of thousand miles away, and had no more information than I could get from reading the METARs. It's not possible to talk to an actual meteorologist, just someone in a windowless room miles away who just reads the data on his computer screen. With METAR stations as much as a hundred miles apart, the only way to get accurate weather information is to go look at it. That's the result of privatization and using the lowest bidder, or more often now, no bidder at all, just whomever has made the largest 'campaign contributions'.
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When will the madness end?
Another EMS accident in Missouri claims 4 more lives
4 dead in helicopter crash - Local News Story - St. Joseph
4 dead in helicopter crash - Local News Story - St. Joseph
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I share your sentiments. This just has to stop,
1)When EMS operators start following the IHST toolkits on SMS, training and maintenance
2) When they invest in modern twin helicopters, certified to the latest standards (including crashworthiness)
3) When they operate with two crew
Four die in Clay County medical helicopter crash - KansasCity.com
Mechanical problem documented in chopper that matches partial tail number and markings at crash site- NBCActionNews.com
1)When EMS operators start following the IHST toolkits on SMS, training and maintenance
2) When they invest in modern twin helicopters, certified to the latest standards (including crashworthiness)
3) When they operate with two crew
Four die in Clay County medical helicopter crash - KansasCity.com
Mechanical problem documented in chopper that matches partial tail number and markings at crash site- NBCActionNews.com
I share your sentiments. This just has to stop,
1)When EMS operators start following the IHST toolkits on SMS, training and maintenance
2) When they invest in modern twin helicopters, certified to the latest standards (including crashworthiness)
3) When they operate with two crew
Four die in Clay County medical helicopter crash - KansasCity.com
Mechanical problem documented in chopper that matches partial tail number and markings at crash site- NBCActionNews.com
1)When EMS operators start following the IHST toolkits on SMS, training and maintenance
2) When they invest in modern twin helicopters, certified to the latest standards (including crashworthiness)
3) When they operate with two crew
Four die in Clay County medical helicopter crash - KansasCity.com
Mechanical problem documented in chopper that matches partial tail number and markings at crash site- NBCActionNews.com
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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FH
As you know, the 'preliminary reports', by which I take it you mean 'what is broadcast by the local TV', are often wrong.
All three steps would massively reduce risk in a business that is patently not following ALARP principles and has a hoffiic accident history.
I sleep soundly at night knowing I am not complacent about safety.
As you know, the 'preliminary reports', by which I take it you mean 'what is broadcast by the local TV', are often wrong.
All three steps would massively reduce risk in a business that is patently not following ALARP principles and has a hoffiic accident history.
I sleep soundly at night knowing I am not complacent about safety.
Ah well; Shell Management, just like the real Shell claims to know all and is often found wanting. He/she can rarely provide proof of his claims and is so often wide of the mark that his/her pilot hatred is all that is obvious.
SM; you were the subject of a conversation in our office the other day, three management pilots, five line pilots, 4 members of the CAA and a member of EASA, a quality manager and a head of engineering all of whom have worked on Shell contracts were discussing what a total t***er you are.
And the more evangelical you become the more ridiculous you make yourself.
Why not wait for the accident report before telling us where aviation is going wrong?
In this case your comments are ill-timed and crass. Doubtless you see yourself as a saviour, I don't. So spare us your opinions and go take a good hard look at the real Shell. Maybe they will listen to you, because let's face it no-one one here takes you seriously.
VH
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Ah well; Shell Management, just like the real Shell claims to know all and is often found wanting. He/she can rarely provide proof of his claims and is so often wide of the mark that his/her pilot hatred is all that is obvious.
SM; you were the subject of a conversation in our office the other day, three management pilots, five line pilots, 4 members of the CAA and a member of EASA, a quality manager and a head of engineering all of whom have worked on Shell contracts were discussing what a total t***er you are.
And the more evangelical you become the more ridiculous you make yourself.
Why not wait for the accident report before telling us where aviation is going wrong?
In this case your comments are ill-timed and crass. Doubtless you see yourself as a saviour, I don't. So spare us your opinions and go take a good hard look at the real Shell. Maybe they will listen to you, because let's face it no-one one here takes you seriously.
VH
SM; you were the subject of a conversation in our office the other day, three management pilots, five line pilots, 4 members of the CAA and a member of EASA, a quality manager and a head of engineering all of whom have worked on Shell contracts were discussing what a total t***er you are.
And the more evangelical you become the more ridiculous you make yourself.
Why not wait for the accident report before telling us where aviation is going wrong?
In this case your comments are ill-timed and crass. Doubtless you see yourself as a saviour, I don't. So spare us your opinions and go take a good hard look at the real Shell. Maybe they will listen to you, because let's face it no-one one here takes you seriously.
VH
Like him or not - personal feelings should not be relevant. I don't think I can disagree with the points SM makes about safety, and his suggestions are certainly very valid.
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Agree with Horror Box, SM does make valid points that seem to be the root cause of most EMS accidents in the US.
The reason I started the thread is I recently read Randy Mains' book "The Golden Hour" which was written in the early 80's and outlines the same problems that EMS pilots still face today. It dumbfounds me that in 30 years the industry has learned nothing, while the Canadians and Europeans manage to do it safely.
Unfortunately, I don't think anything will change until profit margins are taken out of the equation and all programs are government contracts or charity based........some how I don't see that happening in the good old USA
The reason I started the thread is I recently read Randy Mains' book "The Golden Hour" which was written in the early 80's and outlines the same problems that EMS pilots still face today. It dumbfounds me that in 30 years the industry has learned nothing, while the Canadians and Europeans manage to do it safely.
Unfortunately, I don't think anything will change until profit margins are taken out of the equation and all programs are government contracts or charity based........some how I don't see that happening in the good old USA
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vh - you can be rude about people if you like but I'm afraid that, whether you like his comments, attitude or the individual, or not, there is no doubt that if the measures mentioned by SM were taken, the already risky business of EMS flying, which is multiplied many-fold by doing so at night, with one engine and invariably no autopilot, would be significantly reduced. IMHO, whilst SM item 3 (two crew) is great if you can afford it, items 1 & 2 would be a good place to start - SPIFR, with the proper equipment, is significantly preferable, and less risky, than more holes in the ground.
What might have been a lifeline for one, in this case, turned out to be a death-line for four. It's not the first time nor, sadly, is it likely to be the last, until someone takes responsibility and legislates some significant risk-reduction measures. Flying cheaper aircraft to make a quick buck is not the way to go, IMHO, & I dread to think what EMS aircraft & crew insurance premiums are like in the USA, although I suspect they're subsidised by all that medical insurance that pays so much for the flights in the first place?
What might have been a lifeline for one, in this case, turned out to be a death-line for four. It's not the first time nor, sadly, is it likely to be the last, until someone takes responsibility and legislates some significant risk-reduction measures. Flying cheaper aircraft to make a quick buck is not the way to go, IMHO, & I dread to think what EMS aircraft & crew insurance premiums are like in the USA, although I suspect they're subsidised by all that medical insurance that pays so much for the flights in the first place?
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VH
Sad when people take all the trouble to burst into print when their sole aim is to shoot the messenger.
It's probably been said before but this site would benefit if people stuck to making their point and avoided personal abuse or pointless mud-slinging.
G.
It's probably been said before but this site would benefit if people stuck to making their point and avoided personal abuse or pointless mud-slinging.
G.
I hate to say this, but the "maintenance" article that SM is referring to in his post is total crap.
I am quoting from the article:"The guide vane sends gas from the compressor onto the blades and makes the rotors turn.
That sentence alone shows total ignorance of subject.
Yes, we all know the sad situation governing the US EMS industry, yes it is sad that four persons perished, but SM has been correct before and while his post jumps to conclusions a bit prematurely, personal attacks are not entirely justified nor appropriate.
I am quoting from the article:"The guide vane sends gas from the compressor onto the blades and makes the rotors turn.
That sentence alone shows total ignorance of subject.
Yes, we all know the sad situation governing the US EMS industry, yes it is sad that four persons perished, but SM has been correct before and while his post jumps to conclusions a bit prematurely, personal attacks are not entirely justified nor appropriate.
I have found the best way to accomodate SM is by use of the Ignore feature....as that prevents any aggravation while getting through his posts to anything substantive.....basically....if one does not see it...one does not get tempted to read it.
VH and Sas,
I would never ignore your posts as they are so entertaining because of gross ignorance. I do not know who SM is, or care, but the safety initiatives Shell has supported are beneficial to the industry.
The Sultan
I would never ignore your posts as they are so entertaining because of gross ignorance. I do not know who SM is, or care, but the safety initiatives Shell has supported are beneficial to the industry.
The Sultan
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The Sultan
I agree posts by SASless are often entertaining. 
Gross ignorance?
You'll have to make allowance for his inexperience. He's only got 10,000 hours, 2000 Army instructing, two Chinook combat tours in Vietnam, four years flying Hueys in the National Guard and 30+ years experience flying a variety of onshore/offshore ops in various parts of the world.
--------
Personal feelings should not be relevant and personal attacks are not acceptable but Shell Management has only himself to blame for his general lack of credibility. Various PPRuNe forums are littered with sweeping assertions by SM on a very wide range of topics which he is unable to back up when challenged.
That doesn't mean he's incapable of making a good point occasionally but it might explain why people react as they often do, in this and other forums.
H.
entertaining because of gross ignorance
Gross ignorance?
You'll have to make allowance for his inexperience. He's only got 10,000 hours, 2000 Army instructing, two Chinook combat tours in Vietnam, four years flying Hueys in the National Guard and 30+ years experience flying a variety of onshore/offshore ops in various parts of the world.
--------
Personal feelings should not be relevant and personal attacks are not acceptable but Shell Management has only himself to blame for his general lack of credibility. Various PPRuNe forums are littered with sweeping assertions by SM on a very wide range of topics which he is unable to back up when challenged.
That doesn't mean he's incapable of making a good point occasionally but it might explain why people react as they often do, in this and other forums.
H.
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2) When they invest in modern twin helicopters, certified to the latest standards (including crashworthiness)
3) When they operate with two crew
You could safe a ton of money flying singles and using that for a second set of eyes and ears.....
Far more valuable to me than a second engine, and a higher probability of keeping one from an incident.
