Do the UK Military teach Vortex Ring?
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Do the UK Military teach Vortex Ring?
I flew with an ex-AAC Gazelle pilot the other day. He got out of the service last year. He said he had NEVER been demo-d Vortex Ring State at ANY time of his training - said this was AAC Policy.
Does this sound a bit odd? He knew the theory, but had never actually had it taught to him, like on the JAA PPL Syllabus.
Thoughts?
Does this sound a bit odd? He knew the theory, but had never actually had it taught to him, like on the JAA PPL Syllabus.
Thoughts?
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I left the RN in 97' and up to that point, you had to demo insipient (sp) vortex ring state and recovery every year as part of your handling check...But then we were the senior service 
Let the Pongo bashing commence 
Let the Pongo bashing commence
Yup - and we don't make them actually roll the aircraft over to prove that dynamic rollover exists either.
It used to be taught very many moons ago ( I think the last to give it up were the Navy on the Sea King course)
You only need to know how not to get into it, what the incipient stage symptoms are and how to recover from that.
Lots of guys claim to teach fully developed VRS but frankly I don't believe it.
It used to be taught very many moons ago ( I think the last to give it up were the Navy on the Sea King course)
You only need to know how not to get into it, what the incipient stage symptoms are and how to recover from that.
Lots of guys claim to teach fully developed VRS but frankly I don't believe it.
There are no limits
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I concur with that as I had similar experiences to him.
Not odd at all, why do you need a demo of every possible hazardous state?
Would you like to do negative G or see how low you could get the Nr in a Robinson?
It should be enough that part of the thorough briefing includes the statement " THIS WILL KILL YOU - DON'T DO IT"
Not odd at all, why do you need a demo of every possible hazardous state?
Would you like to do negative G or see how low you could get the Nr in a Robinson?
It should be enough that part of the thorough briefing includes the statement " THIS WILL KILL YOU - DON'T DO IT"
The RAF certainly did in 1966. It was during the (one) high altitude demonstration sortie when you wore a parachute. The reason for the parachute was that a Whirlwind (magnesium alloy) would burn out before it reached the ground if it caught fire above 4,000ft. agl.
They stopped doing it on the Sycamore when one clapped it's blade tips.
They stopped doing it on the Sycamore when one clapped it's blade tips.
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We used to look at it in the Merlin sim, which okay may not be a totally accurate demonstration of the real thing, but as has been said why risk the aircraft and your little pink body doing the real thing?
Avoid imitations
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I was shown it on the Whirlwind course, many, many moons ago. (Oi Crab, just watch it! 
). Climbed to 10,000 feet wearing a "parrotshoot".
It was a brief demo. My instructor suddenly said: "There it is - did you see it?"
"No, I didn't", said I.
"Well, that's it, we're going back to Shawbury now"
"
" thought I.
Don't remember being required to teach it on the Gazelle, though.
). Climbed to 10,000 feet wearing a "parrotshoot".It was a brief demo. My instructor suddenly said: "There it is - did you see it?"
"No, I didn't", said I.
"Well, that's it, we're going back to Shawbury now"
"
" thought I.Don't remember being required to teach it on the Gazelle, though.
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VRS - the theory - was and still is taught however, practical demonstrations of recovery ceased circa 1980. I am unsure of the precise date. I was reliably informed that the reason was simply because the risk of inclusion in the course and the fact that there were few documented occurrences outweighed the consequential aircraft life reduction and potential educational error.
I believe that in later years the same analogy was used to justify a revision in EOL.
Best Wishes
I believe that in later years the same analogy was used to justify a revision in EOL.
Best Wishes
Then there is the rank amateurs among us who have demonstrated VRS (probably more like incipient VRS) quite by accident. (accident meaning inadvertently....)
The FAA requires a demo of VRS as part of the CFI checkride and as a part of the annual part 135 Air Taxi checkride.
The real key is to know what it is, when it can occur, what the warning signs are, and how to recover to normal flight. It would appear to me professional helicopter pilots should be well acquainted with VRS and have experienced at least a mild onset some where in their training.
Longline work is one situation that is likely to put an aircraft at risk for the onset of VRS should the winds be light and variable.
The FAA requires a demo of VRS as part of the CFI checkride and as a part of the annual part 135 Air Taxi checkride.
The real key is to know what it is, when it can occur, what the warning signs are, and how to recover to normal flight. It would appear to me professional helicopter pilots should be well acquainted with VRS and have experienced at least a mild onset some where in their training.
Longline work is one situation that is likely to put an aircraft at risk for the onset of VRS should the winds be light and variable.
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As an ex AAC attached pilot, incipient VRS was demonstrated to me in 1979 during my course at Middle Wallop. As I spent quite a bit of time in the high hover over certain areas of Northern Ireland during my first two year tour, I appreciated the fact I had the knowledge to indentify VRS should I ever get anywhere near it.
It was also demonstrated to me by my Flt QHI in Cyprus in 1981 when flying the Alouette II.
Thankfully, I have never been in the position of having to get out of such a nasty situation!
bondu
It was also demonstrated to me by my Flt QHI in Cyprus in 1981 when flying the Alouette II.
Thankfully, I have never been in the position of having to get out of such a nasty situation!
bondu
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The FAA requires a demo of VRS as part of the CFI checkride and as a part of the annual part 135 Air Taxi checkride.
D. TASK: SETTLING-WITH-POWER
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-21; POH/RFM.
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-21; POH/RFM.
Objective.
To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to settling-with-power.
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to settling-with-power.
2. Selects an altitude that will allow recovery to be completed no
less than 1,000 feet AGL or, if applicable, the manufacturer’s
recommended altitude, whichever is higher.
3. Promptly recognizes and recovers at the onset of settling-withpower.
4. Utilizes the appropriate recovery procedure.
less than 1,000 feet AGL or, if applicable, the manufacturer’s
recommended altitude, whichever is higher.
3. Promptly recognizes and recovers at the onset of settling-withpower.
4. Utilizes the appropriate recovery procedure.
I know, I know many of you (myself included) think these are to different things (the settling thing and the vortex thing) but the FAA likes to describe it this way - and last time I checked, they where the governing body for the US when it comes to pilots licenses 
Last edited by Phil77; 25th Jun 2008 at 22:38.
AAAvnC did not demonstrate or discuss vortex ring state in 1968. CFS Tern Hill did not include it in the QHI Course in 70/71. However I do recall the "high altitude (10,000ft)" sortie, with parachute and the only instructional outcome being 'more left pedal required at altitude.'
As a civilian instructor for the last eighteen years, with around 10.000 instructional hours, I regularly demonstrate vortex ring state - requirements, symptoms, entry and recovery, in a variety of heli including R22, R44, AS350, H500, BK117 ....... Buggered if I can consistently demonstrate it in a B47 or B206 tho'! Dammed if I know why? Been put in it three times (inadvertantly) in these types by folks doing base and line checks. Opened my eyes.....
The subject has been well covered in PPRune in the past. Rates of descent vary on the same machine on different days. However, in my experience, the standard recovery technique works every time!
Surely the instructor should ensure the student understands the requirements to get into it and the symptoms - both incipient and developed. We then need to be shown and practise the standard recovery (and the variations.)The idea being to avoid the "nasty." However, if Bloggs manages to achieve the undesirable, he needs the tools to avoid spoiling his day by a heavy impact with terra firma!
As a civilian instructor for the last eighteen years, with around 10.000 instructional hours, I regularly demonstrate vortex ring state - requirements, symptoms, entry and recovery, in a variety of heli including R22, R44, AS350, H500, BK117 ....... Buggered if I can consistently demonstrate it in a B47 or B206 tho'! Dammed if I know why? Been put in it three times (inadvertantly) in these types by folks doing base and line checks. Opened my eyes.....
The subject has been well covered in PPRune in the past. Rates of descent vary on the same machine on different days. However, in my experience, the standard recovery technique works every time!
Surely the instructor should ensure the student understands the requirements to get into it and the symptoms - both incipient and developed. We then need to be shown and practise the standard recovery (and the variations.)The idea being to avoid the "nasty." However, if Bloggs manages to achieve the undesirable, he needs the tools to avoid spoiling his day by a heavy impact with terra firma!
Ancient - could you explain exactly what parameters you use for entry and how far you let it go before recovery?
Always 2000agl for Robbos. 4500agl for BK117. The hard part, in a strong wind, is zero IAS. I don't have the same sucess in 20kts of breeze. The ground speed is noticeably off-putting. Lower collective until we have ROD >500fpm, then wait.
Random pitch, roll and yaw seem to arrive first. ROD goes thru 1800-2000fpm. Reduced cyclic effectiveness and increased vibration. Raise collective and watch Bloggs eyes as the ROD increases further.......Plenty of time for patter. Then recover. Forward (not excessive) cyclic works every time. Next demo try simultaneously lowering collective and note quicker apparent recovery - albeit with a greater altitude loss.
The Robbos always develop around 2000+fpm ROD. However, on quite a few occasions the VSI has done at least one lap of the dial! I have not been able to achieve this high ROD on consecutive demonstrations. Therefore I suspect the 2000fpm ROD may be the incipient stage. The AS350 and the BK give much higher ROD. They also seem to slip in to the state much more quickly/easier.
I am NOT a TP!. The CASA (Oz) syllabus reqires the exercise. I always demonstrate it to my students then let them have a go. QHI training is harder 'cos a lot of candidates can't get the R22, in particular, to enter the vortex ring state. I was introduced to the demo on the Robinson factory course at Torrance.
Random pitch, roll and yaw seem to arrive first. ROD goes thru 1800-2000fpm. Reduced cyclic effectiveness and increased vibration. Raise collective and watch Bloggs eyes as the ROD increases further.......Plenty of time for patter. Then recover. Forward (not excessive) cyclic works every time. Next demo try simultaneously lowering collective and note quicker apparent recovery - albeit with a greater altitude loss.
The Robbos always develop around 2000+fpm ROD. However, on quite a few occasions the VSI has done at least one lap of the dial! I have not been able to achieve this high ROD on consecutive demonstrations. Therefore I suspect the 2000fpm ROD may be the incipient stage. The AS350 and the BK give much higher ROD. They also seem to slip in to the state much more quickly/easier.
I am NOT a TP!. The CASA (Oz) syllabus reqires the exercise. I always demonstrate it to my students then let them have a go. QHI training is harder 'cos a lot of candidates can't get the R22, in particular, to enter the vortex ring state. I was introduced to the demo on the Robinson factory course at Torrance.
Last edited by Ancient Rotorhead; 26th Jun 2008 at 07:29. Reason: 4500agl for BK117
Thanks for the info - you are certainly a braver man than me! Although I have had plenty of students put me into the incipient stages accidentally I have always initiated recovery quickly.
Out of interest I was required to show only the incipient stage on R22 and 206 CAA 1179 check rides - does anyone in UK actually demo complete VRS?
Out of interest I was required to show only the incipient stage on R22 and 206 CAA 1179 check rides - does anyone in UK actually demo complete VRS?
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I seem to remember an ex AAC pilot telling me that the army decided to make a video of a Scout in VRS.
So two Scout's went to ten thousand feet, one the a/c to do the exercise and the other to film.
Apparently when the first a/c got in to fully developed VRS the other a/c couldn't keep up (or down?) so had to do the same and they both got down rather quickly, I'm sure over six thousand feet rate of descent was mentioned.
Can't tell you if it's true but stopped me going to far with demonstrations.
So two Scout's went to ten thousand feet, one the a/c to do the exercise and the other to film.
Apparently when the first a/c got in to fully developed VRS the other a/c couldn't keep up (or down?) so had to do the same and they both got down rather quickly, I'm sure over six thousand feet rate of descent was mentioned.
Can't tell you if it's true but stopped me going to far with demonstrations.
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Maneuver Guide of a large US based flight school:
Settling with Power (R22 - PPL)
looking for 2000 ft agl
turn into tailwind condition
carburetor heat comes up
clear area
downwind setup / straight and level flight with 40 kt
set collective to 17-18 inches MP
continuously slow it down to 0 airspeed / first set of vibrations is ETL
feeling the descent / second set of vibrations SWP - watch your vsi
initiate recovery
lower collective - right pedal
forward cyclic
recover from nose down attitude with aft cyclic and raise collective
(as soon as you feel the vibrations are gone / clean air entering the rotor system / no lower than 1000 ft AGL)
watch rotor RPM on recovery - MINIMIZE LOSS OF ALTITUDE
Instructor demonstration:
check power available (MP chart)
slow the aircraft down to a OGE hover
lower collective - establish a rate of descent more than 300 ft/min
waiting for the vibrations of settling with power
feeling the vibrations - watch your VSI
initiate recovery
lower collective - right pedal - forward cyclic
recover from nose down attitude with raise collective and aft cyclic
(as soon as you feel toe vibrations are gone / clean air entering the rotor system / no lower than 1000 ft AGL)
watch rotor RPM on recovery
Settling with Power (R22 - PPL)
looking for 2000 ft agl
turn into tailwind condition
carburetor heat comes up
clear area
downwind setup / straight and level flight with 40 kt
set collective to 17-18 inches MP
continuously slow it down to 0 airspeed / first set of vibrations is ETL
feeling the descent / second set of vibrations SWP - watch your vsi
initiate recovery
lower collective - right pedal
forward cyclic
recover from nose down attitude with aft cyclic and raise collective
(as soon as you feel the vibrations are gone / clean air entering the rotor system / no lower than 1000 ft AGL)
watch rotor RPM on recovery - MINIMIZE LOSS OF ALTITUDE
Instructor demonstration:
check power available (MP chart)
slow the aircraft down to a OGE hover
lower collective - establish a rate of descent more than 300 ft/min
waiting for the vibrations of settling with power
feeling the vibrations - watch your VSI
initiate recovery
lower collective - right pedal - forward cyclic
recover from nose down attitude with raise collective and aft cyclic
(as soon as you feel toe vibrations are gone / clean air entering the rotor system / no lower than 1000 ft AGL)
watch rotor RPM on recovery
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I had a practical demonstration by accident over Belfast in the 90's. In the hover at 9000' my co-pilot fell asleep on me whilst handling and I didn't notice. We lost 4000' before recovery...
