too old
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: london
Age: 62
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
too old
Hello everyone,
had a bit of a setback today in my quest to become a pro pilot. Got a letter from one of the major offshore firms telling me basically not to bother switching careers as I'm too old at 47 to even be considered. I'm determined not to let that stop me following my dream, but, in all honesty, are they right? Will I be wasting my time going through the CPL(H) and IR(H) only to be met with disappointment at every juncture due to my age? Has anyone else had this sort of experience? It seems a bit weird being told you're too old for something when you're 47 - I'll have people standing up and giving me their seat on the tube next, just to rub salt in the wounds. I know this is a forum for already established pro pilots and not PPLs like me, but just help me out as I'm feeling a bit sensitive at the moment, then I promise I'll leave you all alone.
Cheers everyone, OAP Sean
had a bit of a setback today in my quest to become a pro pilot. Got a letter from one of the major offshore firms telling me basically not to bother switching careers as I'm too old at 47 to even be considered. I'm determined not to let that stop me following my dream, but, in all honesty, are they right? Will I be wasting my time going through the CPL(H) and IR(H) only to be met with disappointment at every juncture due to my age? Has anyone else had this sort of experience? It seems a bit weird being told you're too old for something when you're 47 - I'll have people standing up and giving me their seat on the tube next, just to rub salt in the wounds. I know this is a forum for already established pro pilots and not PPLs like me, but just help me out as I'm feeling a bit sensitive at the moment, then I promise I'll leave you all alone.
Cheers everyone, OAP Sean
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Around
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It all seems terribly unfair no doubt... not to mention probably being illegal on some level. However you have to consider the enormous costs to training people on large helicopters in an offshore role.
Consider training someone in their late 20s vs. training someone in their 40s. The costs can be amortised over a much longer period of time yielding a substantially higher return for the employer.
If it's what you want to do though find a way... I work offshore and I know of new hires with nothing other than R22 time and a pinch of turbine, who have got a start in their early 40s.
Otherwise you might have to consider other options... helicopters fly in lots of other MORE interesting places than in clouds and over water!
Good luck
Consider training someone in their late 20s vs. training someone in their 40s. The costs can be amortised over a much longer period of time yielding a substantially higher return for the employer.
If it's what you want to do though find a way... I work offshore and I know of new hires with nothing other than R22 time and a pinch of turbine, who have got a start in their early 40s.
Otherwise you might have to consider other options... helicopters fly in lots of other MORE interesting places than in clouds and over water!
Good luck
Last edited by kwikenz; 21st Jun 2008 at 01:04. Reason: finger trouble :)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Sean,
Sorry to hear about your situation, but I have to agree with the comment from the offshore operator , by the time you have completed your CPL and IR you will be probably be 50 and maybe up to £80K poorer and you will be competing with 20 -30 year olds who can give more than 10-15 years service ! Also the exams are very stressful. It doesn’t mean that you can’t fly a helicopter, it’s just that it would be extremely unlikely that you would be employed in the offshore business. However depending on your financial situation and you have dreamt since being knee high to a grass hopper to fly, then you could always aim to be a part time general aviation flight instructor and still keep your main career ,I entered the offshore business when I was 36 and even then I was made to feel like an OAP.
Hope this helps.
Sorry to hear about your situation, but I have to agree with the comment from the offshore operator , by the time you have completed your CPL and IR you will be probably be 50 and maybe up to £80K poorer and you will be competing with 20 -30 year olds who can give more than 10-15 years service ! Also the exams are very stressful. It doesn’t mean that you can’t fly a helicopter, it’s just that it would be extremely unlikely that you would be employed in the offshore business. However depending on your financial situation and you have dreamt since being knee high to a grass hopper to fly, then you could always aim to be a part time general aviation flight instructor and still keep your main career ,I entered the offshore business when I was 36 and even then I was made to feel like an OAP.
Hope this helps.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hiding between the Animal Bar and the Suave Bar
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gidday Sean,
I can only comment on my situation here on the other side of the world.
I did 25 years in non-aviation industry, then spent 10 years working up the fixed-wing ladder. Earlier this year, a few months before I turned 50, I got my first helicopter job. Almost all such jobs in Oz are somewhere out beyond the black stump.
So now I've started again at the very bottom of the pole. It isn't easy being polite while being lectured to by a 28 year old who got a CPL two years ago and doesn't know half as much as he thinks he does about life and work. The pay is waaaay below what I'd get doing anything else and the politics is very tough, but here I am in remote Australia beginning again.
But the flying, the customers and the countryside are amazing beyond belief, utterly incredible - People, places and experiences that I would never have dreamt of. So here I am, head down, bum up, mouth closed, getting on with life. What a ride :-))))))
There are jobs out there for us OAPs :-), and they are great ones.
"If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right" (Henry Ford)
I can only comment on my situation here on the other side of the world.
I did 25 years in non-aviation industry, then spent 10 years working up the fixed-wing ladder. Earlier this year, a few months before I turned 50, I got my first helicopter job. Almost all such jobs in Oz are somewhere out beyond the black stump.
So now I've started again at the very bottom of the pole. It isn't easy being polite while being lectured to by a 28 year old who got a CPL two years ago and doesn't know half as much as he thinks he does about life and work. The pay is waaaay below what I'd get doing anything else and the politics is very tough, but here I am in remote Australia beginning again.
But the flying, the customers and the countryside are amazing beyond belief, utterly incredible - People, places and experiences that I would never have dreamt of. So here I am, head down, bum up, mouth closed, getting on with life. What a ride :-))))))
There are jobs out there for us OAPs :-), and they are great ones.
"If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right" (Henry Ford)
Last edited by Unhinged; 21st Jun 2008 at 03:16.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: all over
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IR skills are another consideration. If you already have very good coordination skills, great! If not, age does seem to have an effect on "new" coordination skills. Have seen older Captains, still very sharp with all other flying skills, but with a gradual deterioration in IR control. Get out the Wii, learn ballroom dancing, play squash - anything to help challenge coordination. Cheers
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NZ Southern Alps
Age: 58
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi there, Sean,
I can understand how you feel - wanting to do something you really want to do and having something about yourself becoming a barrier and there's perceivedly little you can do about it. Frustrating.
For what it's worth, I didn't have my first lesson until I was 36. Now, almost 7 years and 2,500 hours later I have the job that was my motivation to learn to fly in the first place.
Admittedly, it's not offshore, but that has never been my personal goal. I have achieved what I set out to do and now every next thing seems like a bonus.
A former colleague of mine was around 46 or 47 when he learned to fly and has been constantly employed since about the time he had 5 or 600 hours. I think he would be around 51 or 52 now.
Don't ever stop trying to achieve what you really want, but be practical about your goals - make sure they are achievable.
Do you want to fly, or do you want to fly offshore? What's more important?
I have a strong and significant respect for those in offshore work, and other IFR based operations, but I would never swap what I do for offshore work . . . it is simply too much fun.
I agree with everything previous posters to this thread have written. Sometimes, however, while those that are a little younger may not have 'lived' as much, they may have significantly more specific experience in the industry you are choosing to enter relatively late in your working life. It never hurts to respect that and use the knowledge they have to help yourself further.
Just my 2 cents worth . . . well maybe 5 cents.
Good luck.
GP
I can understand how you feel - wanting to do something you really want to do and having something about yourself becoming a barrier and there's perceivedly little you can do about it. Frustrating.
For what it's worth, I didn't have my first lesson until I was 36. Now, almost 7 years and 2,500 hours later I have the job that was my motivation to learn to fly in the first place.
Admittedly, it's not offshore, but that has never been my personal goal. I have achieved what I set out to do and now every next thing seems like a bonus.
A former colleague of mine was around 46 or 47 when he learned to fly and has been constantly employed since about the time he had 5 or 600 hours. I think he would be around 51 or 52 now.
Don't ever stop trying to achieve what you really want, but be practical about your goals - make sure they are achievable.
Do you want to fly, or do you want to fly offshore? What's more important?
I have a strong and significant respect for those in offshore work, and other IFR based operations, but I would never swap what I do for offshore work . . . it is simply too much fun.
I agree with everything previous posters to this thread have written. Sometimes, however, while those that are a little younger may not have 'lived' as much, they may have significantly more specific experience in the industry you are choosing to enter relatively late in your working life. It never hurts to respect that and use the knowledge they have to help yourself further.
Just my 2 cents worth . . . well maybe 5 cents.
Good luck.
GP
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It certainly is! If this was a UK offshore operator, then putting it in writing was a tad silly!! C'mon Sean, spill the beans or at least gis a clue - my money's on Bond!
To my mind, it is short sighted; NS pilots can fly up to age 65 (with the necessary provisos) so at age 50, you can still give them 15 years. Older people are more likely to stay put with one employer than younger people, so the amortisation of training costs works both ways. Besides, it can be offset with a training bond.
It is also true that as one gets older, the coordination is not as sharp and learning new skills and information takes longer. However, this is also to be offset with a greater maturity and stability in personality and circumstances.
Just remember, age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill!!
Cheers
Whirls
To my mind, it is short sighted; NS pilots can fly up to age 65 (with the necessary provisos) so at age 50, you can still give them 15 years. Older people are more likely to stay put with one employer than younger people, so the amortisation of training costs works both ways. Besides, it can be offset with a training bond.
It is also true that as one gets older, the coordination is not as sharp and learning new skills and information takes longer. However, this is also to be offset with a greater maturity and stability in personality and circumstances.
Just remember, age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill!!
Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Things can change too. I started flying helicopters at age 50, and got my CPL two years later. At the time I asked someone working on the North Sea if I was likely to get a job there at my age, and she said they were desperate for pilots and it should be fine!!! But 9/11 came along and things changed again. So I got an FI rating (age 54), instructed part time for a while, then instructed fulltime for long enough to get sick of it but to find other work, so now I'm back to parttime instructing - which I love.
In all that time I don't think I ever got asked my age, except when I was a PPL. But then, as a woman, I think back then was the only time I encountered sexism too...proves something, don't know what.
As for harder to learn things etc...well, depends what you were like in the first place, doesn't it. What level are we supposed to be deteriorating from? If your intelligence and coordination levels were pretty high, why worry.
In all that time I don't think I ever got asked my age, except when I was a PPL. But then, as a woman, I think back then was the only time I encountered sexism too...proves something, don't know what.
As for harder to learn things etc...well, depends what you were like in the first place, doesn't it. What level are we supposed to be deteriorating from? If your intelligence and coordination levels were pretty high, why worry.
slightly different situation but I started working NS last year at 38. 40 this year!! I fly with a few Captains who are a fair bit younger than myself and it'll be years before I can get the chance at command, if ever. Offshore was something i'd never even considered. At least offshore you can, in theory, keep flying till you're 65 multicrew.
The question is, would it be better to not try and always wonder if you could have done it, or have a go and maybe get lucky. Just remember one thing, this life isn't a practice run, it's the only one you'll get. Fill it with as much as you can. It can end in an instant!
Good luck.
ps, if you have it in writing, take them to court with an age discrimination case, you old biffer!! LOL (just kidding)
The question is, would it be better to not try and always wonder if you could have done it, or have a go and maybe get lucky. Just remember one thing, this life isn't a practice run, it's the only one you'll get. Fill it with as much as you can. It can end in an instant!
Good luck.
ps, if you have it in writing, take them to court with an age discrimination case, you old biffer!! LOL (just kidding)
That's Life!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Out of the sand pit, carving a path through our jungle.
Age: 72
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
will be competing with 20 -30 year olds who can give more than 10-15 years service !
If Broon gets his way then the N Sea could be on the way up again, don't give up hope, there's more than one operator, some even prefer maturity, you're less likely to flit off !
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: london
Age: 62
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers everyone
I woke up this morning a day older, but much more heartened having read all your posts. I really really wish I had done something about my dream years ago, but I didn't have the cash, and there's nothing I can do to change that now (could try lying about my age, using cream etc etc). The decision to switch careers has already been made, but it has not been made lightly. I have thought it through and through and talked it over and over with my family who understand they might have to live on beans OR toast for a while. I am fully aware of the pitfalls and, through reading Rotorheads posts many many times, I am under no illusion of the task facing me. I am determined to see it through but if offshore firms think they're not going to get a good return on any money they spend training me, then there's little I can do about that. I'll just have to revise my plans a bit. Thanks again for your encouragement. I'm off down to the local cafe now, they've got a special OAP breakfast - the works with a free cuppa. Now, where's me glasses....damn, lost em again
Cheers and best wishes to you alll
Sean
I woke up this morning a day older, but much more heartened having read all your posts. I really really wish I had done something about my dream years ago, but I didn't have the cash, and there's nothing I can do to change that now (could try lying about my age, using cream etc etc). The decision to switch careers has already been made, but it has not been made lightly. I have thought it through and through and talked it over and over with my family who understand they might have to live on beans OR toast for a while. I am fully aware of the pitfalls and, through reading Rotorheads posts many many times, I am under no illusion of the task facing me. I am determined to see it through but if offshore firms think they're not going to get a good return on any money they spend training me, then there's little I can do about that. I'll just have to revise my plans a bit. Thanks again for your encouragement. I'm off down to the local cafe now, they've got a special OAP breakfast - the works with a free cuppa. Now, where's me glasses....damn, lost em again
Cheers and best wishes to you alll
Sean
I know several pilots who are 70+ years old that still fly commercially, and single pilot too. Mind you though, they started their flying careers alot earlier than you. It goes to show however that you might have a good 20 years ahead of you in the business. Just make sure you can afford the investment without needing to seek a return on it.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in orbit
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sean, go ahead with your flight training, if that is what you really want to do. Please be advised that you may need to do some other form of flying until you have sufficient hours and IR, that the offshore operators may find difficult to ignore. This may mean you probably will be about 51 years old before you may be considered. If not, try Australia and Solomon Island where there are folks still flying past 70 years.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: london
Age: 62
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks for all your help and pointers everyone. I realise there is much much more to helicopters than offshore work. But I had my heart set on that, and I was kind of hoping that when I finally got to the point where I was employable (after training, hours building and other experience etc) I could offer a good few years of sevice to whoever took me on. It would probably be my last job and so my employer would have got around 13-14 years out of me. I also appreciate there are medical certification issues with age, but I think I'm OK on the eyesight front and co-ordination etc. Anyway, I'll crack on and see what happens and change course accordingly. And, once again, thanks for all your help
"Old" Sean
"Old" Sean
a word of warning seang, flying offshore isn't as exciting as some would have you believe. there is a certain amount of monotony as the task is the same every day, just different weather to contend with.
Ok, you're home every night, if the a/c doesn't go tech offshore, and it's salaried.
If you want to ask any questions on any aspect 'off forum' just PM me. Willing to help in any way I can.
Ok, you're home every night, if the a/c doesn't go tech offshore, and it's salaried.
If you want to ask any questions on any aspect 'off forum' just PM me. Willing to help in any way I can.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Antigua, West Indies
Age: 55
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I turned 40 a couple of weeks back. I have my CPL(H) skills test in a few days' time. My understanding is that starting in your forties is par for the course these days, unless you have minted parents...
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Afrique da sud
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Find it all interesting - if you learn and qualify in your forties and are lucky enough to get turbine experience and you look at it from an employees perspective I can never understand why it seems that young guys are the preference because of what you will get out of them ??? I have noticed that the younger set dont seem to hang around in their so-called long term careers for very long - they are all using the Operators in the same way they are being used 
If you are fit and reliable and usually have skills that the operators can use while you sit around waiting for IMC to go away I dont see why they dont go for older people. I think the key is its not easy as the other posters have implied and the risk of failure could be an unrecoverable debt. One of my instructors had done that type of work and he described it to me - landing at night in the rain in close to gale force winds with machines full of family bread winners - wasnt for him, not as glamorous as it looks. One bit of advice is once you have trained/flown for 20 hrs you will know if you can do it as a career or not.
If you are fit and reliable and usually have skills that the operators can use while you sit around waiting for IMC to go away I dont see why they dont go for older people. I think the key is its not easy as the other posters have implied and the risk of failure could be an unrecoverable debt. One of my instructors had done that type of work and he described it to me - landing at night in the rain in close to gale force winds with machines full of family bread winners - wasnt for him, not as glamorous as it looks. One bit of advice is once you have trained/flown for 20 hrs you will know if you can do it as a career or not.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: london
Age: 62
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks choppertop and rtrnewboy, appreciate your imput. I'd like to think that employers would look at your experience rather than your age, but I'm not naive enough to know that isn't the case (at the moment I've got no experience and lots of age, but I'm hoping to change that situation - the experience, not the age). I'd also like to think that a prospective employer would look at the determination a person in my situation has shown to switch from a comfortably paid job to a career where I will have to suffer a lot of hardship before getting anywhere near the comfortable wage I left behind. This, of course, all depends on whether I am good enough as a pilot to achieve this situation. I am making no assumptions, I am only basing this on my determination to succeed - which is driven in many ways by people consistently telling me I won't (not on this site, though, and I am grateful to you all for that). I'm also basing it on the fact that achieving my PPL(H) was one of the best things I have ever done and it gave me a real appetite to go further. Only cash has stopped me so far, but, hopefully, that will change. I might not be an offshore pilot, but somebody at one of these firms telling me I am too old has just spurred me on to succeed even more. Sorry, I'm rambling now, thanks again everyone
best wishes,
Sean
best wishes,
Sean
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am making no assumptions, I am only basing this on my determination to succeed - which is driven in many ways by people consistently telling me I won't
Former employer, when I explained I'd be taking some time off to go on a CPL ground school course: "Oh don't be silly, Whirly, of course you're not going to be a professional helicopter pilot".
It spurred me on to prove 'em all wrong too.
But make sure that's not the only reason...though it doesn't sound like it is. What other people think doesn't matter at all, and shouldn't affect us either way.