SARH to go
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3d cam- You might have done it to death, but you still fail to answer the question. You always come up with something to muddy the waters. How much do you cost, Simple. If you need to, put a caveat on it, like, we do this, this and this as well, then do it.
Torque-If you want a standby crew, put it in the contract and it will be provided. Same goes for NVG or anything else for that matter including 2 hours on drums. Whatever you want can be provided, it just needs to be written in to the contract. Then if it is not provided there will be penalties. It is that simple. However like you I felt uncomfortable without a standby crew. Now having been exposed to it I do wonder how cost effective it is. But that’s one for the bean counters and the crew that’s stuck in the water 200 miles offshore!
Clever- as you are no doubt well aware, the mil will not tell you how much they cost, state secret. However I know their manning levels and their commitments as I was one. Also when I was in I felt as they do, however in these financially tight times I want to see taxpayers money well spent not wasted. There is little to no Military gain from SAR, the crews are not rotated through so they spend their entire career at home (I know standfast Navy). The guys on the front line are hard pressed and could do with being rotated to a cushy number-SAR. The MOD is bankrupt and needs the cash elsewhere, kit for the troops on the front line. The Hierarchy has taken their eye off the ball with SAR, quite rightly, to concentrate on the front line. That’s why they have been thrown to the wolves. If this argument was fought on an R & R tour for the hard pressed front line I would be on their side. There are also other arguments for it remaining as it is, but in my opinion they have chosen the wrong argument to retain it. Mil manning, by its structure which they have failed to address, means they will always have to have more people on watch. That’s even if they have the same aircraft. The amount off backroom personnel would also not be entertained in the civilian world. As you may be aware personnel costs in the Mil are significantly higher, generous pensions, free medical care, etc. Their inability to get their aircraft serviceability up to a reasonable standard is not the guys on the grounds fault. But it is damming. Don’t let them fool you with the amount of hours flown, a North Sea aircraft flies significantly more hours and still achieves a much better serviceability rate. If the SAR aircraft is not on state there is no penalty, whereas the Civ company will be fined a significant sum, that tends to make them a bit sharper. There is more but I don’t want to bore you. The Air Ambulances/Police are much misaligned on here, yet they have a lot to teach the Mil in terms of cost and efficiency. As I have said before both worlds have something to give but some people don’t want to listen. Think that lot should get me shouted at.
Torque-If you want a standby crew, put it in the contract and it will be provided. Same goes for NVG or anything else for that matter including 2 hours on drums. Whatever you want can be provided, it just needs to be written in to the contract. Then if it is not provided there will be penalties. It is that simple. However like you I felt uncomfortable without a standby crew. Now having been exposed to it I do wonder how cost effective it is. But that’s one for the bean counters and the crew that’s stuck in the water 200 miles offshore!
Clever- as you are no doubt well aware, the mil will not tell you how much they cost, state secret. However I know their manning levels and their commitments as I was one. Also when I was in I felt as they do, however in these financially tight times I want to see taxpayers money well spent not wasted. There is little to no Military gain from SAR, the crews are not rotated through so they spend their entire career at home (I know standfast Navy). The guys on the front line are hard pressed and could do with being rotated to a cushy number-SAR. The MOD is bankrupt and needs the cash elsewhere, kit for the troops on the front line. The Hierarchy has taken their eye off the ball with SAR, quite rightly, to concentrate on the front line. That’s why they have been thrown to the wolves. If this argument was fought on an R & R tour for the hard pressed front line I would be on their side. There are also other arguments for it remaining as it is, but in my opinion they have chosen the wrong argument to retain it. Mil manning, by its structure which they have failed to address, means they will always have to have more people on watch. That’s even if they have the same aircraft. The amount off backroom personnel would also not be entertained in the civilian world. As you may be aware personnel costs in the Mil are significantly higher, generous pensions, free medical care, etc. Their inability to get their aircraft serviceability up to a reasonable standard is not the guys on the grounds fault. But it is damming. Don’t let them fool you with the amount of hours flown, a North Sea aircraft flies significantly more hours and still achieves a much better serviceability rate. If the SAR aircraft is not on state there is no penalty, whereas the Civ company will be fined a significant sum, that tends to make them a bit sharper. There is more but I don’t want to bore you. The Air Ambulances/Police are much misaligned on here, yet they have a lot to teach the Mil in terms of cost and efficiency. As I have said before both worlds have something to give but some people don’t want to listen. Think that lot should get me shouted at.
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Rottweiler,
You made a lot of points in that last paragraph, many of which damned the military for being more expensive and less efficient than civilian SAR. In addition, you now state that the Air Ambulances have much to teach the military about efficiency.
My procurement background is getting the better of me, and I hate to sound repetitive, but unless you can provide a cost comparison you are merely making meaningless statements with no basis in fact. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it seems to be.
CD
You made a lot of points in that last paragraph, many of which damned the military for being more expensive and less efficient than civilian SAR. In addition, you now state that the Air Ambulances have much to teach the military about efficiency.
My procurement background is getting the better of me, and I hate to sound repetitive, but unless you can provide a cost comparison you are merely making meaningless statements with no basis in fact. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it seems to be.
CD
Last time I looked, provision of first aircraft availability (within the RAF) was up at around 97-98%. Not bad for an old aircraft which has suffered from poor spares provision in recent years.
Rottweiler, you are sadly revisiting all the points made on this and other threads about SAR and you have not brought anything new (except a bit of a rant) to the table.
The milSAR crews are being reduced to 4 per flight which still includes manning the Falklands and providing 2nd standby- the civsar crews need 5 per flight to meet EU working time directives.
You don't have a clue how much your operation costs so constantly banging on about how much we allegedly cost is pointless. Our engineering has been civilianised for over a year now so all the 'waste' has been removed according to your logic.
If milsar is so expensive, why do both remaining contractors want more than the 66 milpers in the final solution?
The milSAR crews are being reduced to 4 per flight which still includes manning the Falklands and providing 2nd standby- the civsar crews need 5 per flight to meet EU working time directives.
You don't have a clue how much your operation costs so constantly banging on about how much we allegedly cost is pointless. Our engineering has been civilianised for over a year now so all the 'waste' has been removed according to your logic.
If milsar is so expensive, why do both remaining contractors want more than the 66 milpers in the final solution?
I hear Bristow’s are going to re-join the fray with Air Knight.
It would also suggest that there were other reasons for pulling out last October - Lehman Brothers, base numbers and platform solutions come to mind.
Whatever, time will tell.
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CR Without wishing to bang on if the mil would provide us with some figures we might be able to compare , ours are out in the open where are theirs. I can tell you the exact cost of a Civ SAR Captain, but I am not gonna.
Last edited by rottweiler; 27th Feb 2009 at 08:41. Reason: cant spell
read back through the posts, we just go round in circles
Rottweiler - What's funny about detgnome's post? His stats are accurate and surely those stats are worthy of praise given the circumstances.
TOTD
Last edited by TorqueOfTheDevil; 27th Feb 2009 at 09:11.
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Rottweiler says that that the military's costs are a 'state secret', and laughs at the assertion of 97-98% first standby availability for the RAF SARF. Rottweiler, why not put in a freedom of information request asking for the military's cost and availability data; after all it's your right to do so as a taxpaper. You'll get the answers that you're looking for in due course, and when you do, why not post it on here?
He also says that his organisation's costs are out there for us to read - can we have a link to where to find them please, as recourse to the Freedom of Information Act doesn't exist for commercial organisations unless I'm very much mistaken?
He also says that his organisation's costs are out there for us to read - can we have a link to where to find them please, as recourse to the Freedom of Information Act doesn't exist for commercial organisations unless I'm very much mistaken?
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Originally Posted by Detgnome
Last time I looked, provision of first aircraft availability (within the RAF) was up at around 97-98%. Not bad for an old aircraft which has suffered from poor spares provision in recent years
Remind me again which day that was
Justin
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gedney- Just look back through this thread and you will find exactly how much the interim SAR cost. However I will give you something, I think its way to low, must be a loss leader.
Cost of a MilSAR captain - could be a first/second tourist on circa £40K or could be old knacker (like me) in the top 60s - CivSAR £65K to £70K minimum from what I read on these pages.
Most of our milsar flights have the younger, less well paid captains (about the same as the civ FOs I would guess) as the majority whereas all the civsar captains will be paid about the same. Who was cheapest again Rottweiler?
As for the 'I know the cost but I'm not going to tell you' remark - that really belongs in the playground and undermines any value of the rest of your posts
Justintime - those availability figures are an accurate average over the last year.
Most of our milsar flights have the younger, less well paid captains (about the same as the civ FOs I would guess) as the majority whereas all the civsar captains will be paid about the same. Who was cheapest again Rottweiler?
As for the 'I know the cost but I'm not going to tell you' remark - that really belongs in the playground and undermines any value of the rest of your posts
Justintime - those availability figures are an accurate average over the last year.
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UK Pay tables not secret.
UK PT War Pay - Academic Work, governance, and mod
Comparisons wouldn't be too tough. Happy computing!
Comparisons wouldn't be too tough. Happy computing!
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I'll just confirm Crab's point on pay.
27 years of MilSAR, 24 as a Captain, and I get about £65k. I am happy to do the job for that money - because for all its faults I am a member of the RAF team.
Any 24 yr CivSAR Captains out there willing to state what they earn? Without risk of going to Iraq (one shooting war) AFG (avoided thus far) or FI (2 yrs and 1100 flying hours)?
And BTW the RAF SAR Force currently has at least 6 people committed to ops in sandy places, and the rest of us are covering the resultant gaps in shift manning. Respite tour? I don't think so.
Sven
27 years of MilSAR, 24 as a Captain, and I get about £65k. I am happy to do the job for that money - because for all its faults I am a member of the RAF team.
Any 24 yr CivSAR Captains out there willing to state what they earn? Without risk of going to Iraq (one shooting war) AFG (avoided thus far) or FI (2 yrs and 1100 flying hours)?
And BTW the RAF SAR Force currently has at least 6 people committed to ops in sandy places, and the rest of us are covering the resultant gaps in shift manning. Respite tour? I don't think so.
Sven
Last edited by Sven Sixtoo; 27th Feb 2009 at 20:22.
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Sven,
Not a problem. Civ P1 pilots anything between about 65k and 88k.
BUT what you have conveniently forgotten to mention is your index linked non contributory FINAL SALARY pension scheme and all the school fees!
I wonder when you consider that what your real salary would be??????
I'd love to have a tax payer guaranteed and funded final salary pension scheme and put my kids through private school. But to get the same benefits I would have to save a huge part of my pay which in real terms would make my pay less than yours.
Anyway, jealously isn't a particularly pleasant trait so enjoy your retirement when it happens, when I'm the same age I'll still be working.
Not a problem. Civ P1 pilots anything between about 65k and 88k.
BUT what you have conveniently forgotten to mention is your index linked non contributory FINAL SALARY pension scheme and all the school fees!
I wonder when you consider that what your real salary would be??????
I'd love to have a tax payer guaranteed and funded final salary pension scheme and put my kids through private school. But to get the same benefits I would have to save a huge part of my pay which in real terms would make my pay less than yours.
Anyway, jealously isn't a particularly pleasant trait so enjoy your retirement when it happens, when I'm the same age I'll still be working.