SARH to go
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: here
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately not a lot of ship based firefighting, as their own Brigade has to pay for that part of the training and ours sees corporate courses for pen pushers as a priority. MIRG pay for the hoist and dunker training, most of what happens is tick in the box training anyway. I was aware of the large section of sea not covered by SAR, especially around the Channel Islands but i`ve never known the military/CG to not respond.
Crab
So was that you, 1600ish. checking out Portlands runway? Or just seeing what our patch looks like in daylight?
BTW. From my point of view, behind, the #1 engine on that "Yellow Peril" was making a lot of smoke!! Is that normal?
3D
we cover the West of Portland's patch when they are tucked up in bed
BTW. From my point of view, behind, the #1 engine on that "Yellow Peril" was making a lot of smoke!! Is that normal?
3D
It's a Sea King - the only thing that smokes worse than one of those is a USAF Phantom and I don't think they have any of them any more
Yes, we had just done a medtransfer to Dorchester and couldn't resist a quick visit - what a nice place to have a SAR Flt
Yes, we had just done a medtransfer to Dorchester and couldn't resist a quick visit - what a nice place to have a SAR Flt
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: England
Age: 58
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Torque and Crab,
Thank you for your responses ref my question about the reduction in RAF SAR crew numbers.
Why is this not a headline news story if it is going to reduce SAR cover? I would like to see a government minister try and spin this one.
CD
Thank you for your responses ref my question about the reduction in RAF SAR crew numbers.
Why is this not a headline news story if it is going to reduce SAR cover? I would like to see a government minister try and spin this one.
CD
CR - A Sunday Times article from last summer.
RAF sends air rescue crews to Afghanistan
Michael Smith
The Sunday Times - August 3, 2008 - The RAF is being forced to pull a fifth of its helicopter crews out of Britain’s search and rescue service and send them to Afghanistan in an attempt to stop soldiers being killed by roadside bombs.
The move will drastically reduce the number of RAF Sea King helicopters available to rescue people in trouble at sea or caught in disasters such as last year’s floods.
The RAF crews respond to an average of 1,000 emergency calls a year, varying from rescuing holidaymakers in difficulties to the 2004 floods that devastated the Cornish village of Boscastle.
Cutting one of the five crews from each of the six RAF search and rescue stations around Britain will put at risk the current ability to respond to any emergency within an hour.
The cuts, due to come into effect over the next few months, will leave most RAF search and rescue stations with only one helicopter on call instead of two, leaving no back-up for big incidents.
Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, whose North Devon constituency includes the RAF’s Chivenor search and rescue base, said: “There have to be grave concerns they will be left shorthanded.”
It is the first time search and rescue crews have been cut to help frontline forces.
Extra helicopters and crews in Afghanistan are seen as vital if the number of soldiers dying there is to be prevented from escalating. Twenty-seven of the last 33 soldiers killed in Afghanistan died as a result of roadside bombs or landmines. Commanders say unless they get them, more soldiers will die.
Just 16 transport helicopters serve British troops in Helmand, an area five times the size of Northern Ireland. Concern over rising numbers of victims of roadside bombs led to an emergency meeting on Thursday chaired by Des Browne, the defence secretary, to raise helicopter numbers.
Merlin helicopters bought from Denmark and revamped special-forces Chinooks, previously deemed too dangerous to fly, will relieve pressure in the short term. However, budget cuts could mean total helicopter numbers dropping from 525 to 220 within eight years.
The importance of rescue helicopters was highlighted this weekend when an RAF crew saved six children and two fathers. They had become stranded yesterday afternoon while travelling in an inflatable boat down the River Tees at Dalton-on-Tees, North Yorkshire. With the boat trapped on an island in the middle of the rising river, the helicopter was scrambled and winched all six to safety.
The MoD confirmed the cuts in crew numbers but said the RAF’s search and rescue would still have “at least one committed standby helicopter at six bases . . . This will not affect normal capability”. …….
Michael Smith
The Sunday Times - August 3, 2008 - The RAF is being forced to pull a fifth of its helicopter crews out of Britain’s search and rescue service and send them to Afghanistan in an attempt to stop soldiers being killed by roadside bombs.
The move will drastically reduce the number of RAF Sea King helicopters available to rescue people in trouble at sea or caught in disasters such as last year’s floods.
The RAF crews respond to an average of 1,000 emergency calls a year, varying from rescuing holidaymakers in difficulties to the 2004 floods that devastated the Cornish village of Boscastle.
Cutting one of the five crews from each of the six RAF search and rescue stations around Britain will put at risk the current ability to respond to any emergency within an hour.
The cuts, due to come into effect over the next few months, will leave most RAF search and rescue stations with only one helicopter on call instead of two, leaving no back-up for big incidents.
Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, whose North Devon constituency includes the RAF’s Chivenor search and rescue base, said: “There have to be grave concerns they will be left shorthanded.”
It is the first time search and rescue crews have been cut to help frontline forces.
Extra helicopters and crews in Afghanistan are seen as vital if the number of soldiers dying there is to be prevented from escalating. Twenty-seven of the last 33 soldiers killed in Afghanistan died as a result of roadside bombs or landmines. Commanders say unless they get them, more soldiers will die.
Just 16 transport helicopters serve British troops in Helmand, an area five times the size of Northern Ireland. Concern over rising numbers of victims of roadside bombs led to an emergency meeting on Thursday chaired by Des Browne, the defence secretary, to raise helicopter numbers.
Merlin helicopters bought from Denmark and revamped special-forces Chinooks, previously deemed too dangerous to fly, will relieve pressure in the short term. However, budget cuts could mean total helicopter numbers dropping from 525 to 220 within eight years.
The importance of rescue helicopters was highlighted this weekend when an RAF crew saved six children and two fathers. They had become stranded yesterday afternoon while travelling in an inflatable boat down the River Tees at Dalton-on-Tees, North Yorkshire. With the boat trapped on an island in the middle of the rising river, the helicopter was scrambled and winched all six to safety.
The MoD confirmed the cuts in crew numbers but said the RAF’s search and rescue would still have “at least one committed standby helicopter at six bases . . . This will not affect normal capability”. …….
...though bear in mind that this article is misleading, in that it suggests that both yellow Sea Kings and their crews are being sent to Afghanistan, whereas neither is true - people are leaving on posting, often to fill personnel shortages in Training Command (or whatever it's called these days), and not being replaced. Some choose to go SH, but it's not true that all, or even many, of those leaving the SAR Force will end up in Afghan.
The number of SAR Sea Kings will stay the same, and the intention is to maintain the same degree of cover as always (ie 1sts and 2nds) if possible. Crab is right that the chances of being able to man both aircraft at once have already been compromised at several places, and this will only get worse - and the MOD have chosen to ignore the risk. It's interesting that, to my knowledge, the 2nd Standby aircraft at the various bases have seen more action in the last two years than for some time previously (Gloucester floods, Sheffield floods, Morpeth floods, Grayrigg train crash etc, as well as 'normal' SAROps). Not for much longer though!
Actually it was all eight that we picked up - good fun winching them up through the trees! Good thing we had a nice big aircraft so we could easily manage 12 POB, even if 6 of them were on the small side!
The number of SAR Sea Kings will stay the same, and the intention is to maintain the same degree of cover as always (ie 1sts and 2nds) if possible. Crab is right that the chances of being able to man both aircraft at once have already been compromised at several places, and this will only get worse - and the MOD have chosen to ignore the risk. It's interesting that, to my knowledge, the 2nd Standby aircraft at the various bases have seen more action in the last two years than for some time previously (Gloucester floods, Sheffield floods, Morpeth floods, Grayrigg train crash etc, as well as 'normal' SAROps). Not for much longer though!
The importance of rescue helicopters was highlighted this weekend when an RAF crew saved six children and two fathers. They had become stranded yesterday afternoon while travelling in an inflatable boat down the River Tees at Dalton-on-Tees, North Yorkshire. With the boat trapped on an island in the middle of the rising river, the helicopter was scrambled and winched all six to safety.
Unfortunately much of that article was bo**ocks - the reduction in manning is not as a result of sending crews to the 'Stan and our yellow helicopters aren't going there either.
The reduction in crews will mean that less people going through training will be sent SAR and in theory that swells the pool of ab initios to go to SH. The flip side is that with fewer SAR posts available, fewer SH pilots will get to come to SAR for a 'rest tour' (something that doesn't happen much anyway).
Fewer crews does mean less availability of 2nd standby (unless you want to cancel leave, courses, AT, liaison visits etc) and because the rearcrew are running at less than 4 radops or winchmen per flight, that has already been an issue.
The MoD didn't understand the rearcrew issues and their statement about not affecting 1st standby is at odds with what we were told - ie that they were happy to accept the risk of impacting 1st standby availability.
The problem is that whilst the MoD might be happy to 'accept' the risk there are Gp Capts, Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs trying to meet KPIs imposed by MoD and end up having to be creative with solutions in order to protect the integrity of UK SAR cover. The inevitable result is a lowering of morale and more people leaving the SARF. This leaves even fewer people to do the job and the OOAs and so morale takes a further downswing. The training system can't replace those leaving quickly enough (especially since many of them are the experienced operators) and so dilution of skills and experience and a reduction in real capability is inevitable.
The RAF bought fast jets instead of helicopters and is run by fast jet pilots and navs who can only see Air Power in terms of pointy aircraft - one of the fundamental reasons we find ourselves in the state we are in.
The reduction in crews will mean that less people going through training will be sent SAR and in theory that swells the pool of ab initios to go to SH. The flip side is that with fewer SAR posts available, fewer SH pilots will get to come to SAR for a 'rest tour' (something that doesn't happen much anyway).
Fewer crews does mean less availability of 2nd standby (unless you want to cancel leave, courses, AT, liaison visits etc) and because the rearcrew are running at less than 4 radops or winchmen per flight, that has already been an issue.
The MoD didn't understand the rearcrew issues and their statement about not affecting 1st standby is at odds with what we were told - ie that they were happy to accept the risk of impacting 1st standby availability.
The problem is that whilst the MoD might be happy to 'accept' the risk there are Gp Capts, Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs trying to meet KPIs imposed by MoD and end up having to be creative with solutions in order to protect the integrity of UK SAR cover. The inevitable result is a lowering of morale and more people leaving the SARF. This leaves even fewer people to do the job and the OOAs and so morale takes a further downswing. The training system can't replace those leaving quickly enough (especially since many of them are the experienced operators) and so dilution of skills and experience and a reduction in real capability is inevitable.
The RAF bought fast jets instead of helicopters and is run by fast jet pilots and navs who can only see Air Power in terms of pointy aircraft - one of the fundamental reasons we find ourselves in the state we are in.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ENGLAND
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SARH
Crab, it's not that the MCA don't understand helicoters, they don't understand aviation full stop. At least, there is nobody who understands it in the right place at least. If they need somebody then I'll volunteer, failing that its a case of leading the dog to water with no gaurranttee it will get there!
, and look what he left us with!!!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: England
Age: 58
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what has been posted here it looks like Flt Lt Wales will be a very good thing for the RAF SAR world but likely to create something of a headache for the MoD and the government. When he starts asking tricky questions from a position of knowledge on the inside it will be very difficult to fob him off; particularly if he threatens to tell his grandmother!
Interesting times ahead.
CD
Interesting times ahead.
CD
I am pleased that Prince William has settled on the RAF to further his secondary career, it is a pity that he chose Sandhurst instead of Cranwell for his initial military training. However, his total involvement with helicopters can only raise the importance they have in both war and peace, any rescue he may carry out will no doubt be well publicised, and if the lack of helicopters in our theatres in Iraq and Afghanistan is brought up again he can no doubt bring some sort of pressure to bear on those who hold the purse strings.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There has been all sorts of thread drift and 'my dad's bigger than your dad' to-ing and fro-ing, but getting back to the point:- Crab, what you are now saying (admitting) is that the Royal Air Force can no longer be trusted to run UK SAR. Here's a thought - why don't we just privatise it? It plainly won't make much difference!
GtV
GtV
I think it's Lost at Sea's new Nom de PPrune
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: the northern riviera
Age: 57
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trouble at Mill?
Any truth in the rumour, that some 'ginger beers' have allegedly been asked if they would come back to SAR if it was to revert to Service manning? Not sure where they would get the manpower from as the (ex) SAR folk were redeployed to other fleets when the eng side was civilianised.