SARH to go
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Not taking sides but sometimes things happen!
Important thing is not what crab says but that as far as I'm aware there were no injuries to the crew and the injured climber was airlifted to hospital by a second helo from valley.
According to the BBC website there was also an Irish Coastguard helo involved and a significant number of volunteer local mountain rescue guys & girls. A great example of inter agency, Mil & civvy co-operation.
Well done to all concerned including the chinook guys for recovering the aircraft safely. Professionalism shown by all. Can we now cut the childish willy waving?
Last edited by Spanish Waltzer; 7th Jul 2008 at 15:45.
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Just a tad more willy waving if I may. 
Crab, put down the bat and read your post #91 again please. I know you hate c&p but I'll save you chasing it down.
you said they lied not me but I wonder if the MCA really understood the difference in operational capability between the first standby (full autopilot) and any replacement aircraft brought in (usually no autopilot) and therefore not suitable to overwater night or IMC SAROps.
Please, where did you get that idea from. If you can tell me where and why a civilian operator would produce an aircraft for SARops without an AP I, along with many others would be curious to know. There's a Deferred Defects List available for each aircraft type. I don't have it for the 61 any more. However the preamble for the Tiger has the following line.
"The existence of these lists does not preclude the captain from accepting the aircraft under such circumstances."
You insult the ability and integrity of the civilian pilot world, especially those who haven't had the opportunity to work in the armed forces, at will. Most of us wore green ovies, they don't make you a better pilot, training and more training from knowledgeable instructors does. Your line about the amount of training and checks a Military SAR pilot does exposes your lack of knowledge, again. Do us all a favour and take a day off (as suggested by many contributors), go to Lee or Portland, ask them how many checks they do every year, before winch check rides. It used to be 13, but may well have increased, and that included a written paper.
Unfortunately this medium removes the intonation and inflection present in speech. That's a real shame as I'm sure most of us would enjoy discussing your points in a pub. I repeat that using any form of insult which lambastes a person's perceived mental state is unacceptable, and degrading.
Crab, put down the bat and read your post #91 again please. I know you hate c&p but I'll save you chasing it down.
you said they lied not me but I wonder if the MCA really understood the difference in operational capability between the first standby (full autopilot) and any replacement aircraft brought in (usually no autopilot) and therefore not suitable to overwater night or IMC SAROps.
Please, where did you get that idea from. If you can tell me where and why a civilian operator would produce an aircraft for SARops without an AP I, along with many others would be curious to know. There's a Deferred Defects List available for each aircraft type. I don't have it for the 61 any more. However the preamble for the Tiger has the following line.
"The existence of these lists does not preclude the captain from accepting the aircraft under such circumstances."
You insult the ability and integrity of the civilian pilot world, especially those who haven't had the opportunity to work in the armed forces, at will. Most of us wore green ovies, they don't make you a better pilot, training and more training from knowledgeable instructors does. Your line about the amount of training and checks a Military SAR pilot does exposes your lack of knowledge, again. Do us all a favour and take a day off (as suggested by many contributors), go to Lee or Portland, ask them how many checks they do every year, before winch check rides. It used to be 13, but may well have increased, and that included a written paper.
Unfortunately this medium removes the intonation and inflection present in speech. That's a real shame as I'm sure most of us would enjoy discussing your points in a pub. I repeat that using any form of insult which lambastes a person's perceived mental state is unacceptable, and degrading.
Bootneck - I know that all the Bristows S61's did not have the same fit, such that whilst any of the normal 1st standby SAR aircraft were full autopilot, if that was u/s and a temporary replacement was used, it was likely to be a non-autopilot aircraft. Is anyone going to tell me that was never the case and such a S61 never held state at a civ SAR flight?
As for training and checks - we have discussed at length that the mil does considerably more training, you and others say that is what makes us more expensive - by your logic it also makes us better operators
Is there a team that visits each civSAR flt every 18 months to check the admin, engineering and the flying like SAR Standards does? That is in addition to an annual cat check, sim trg, IRT and periodic QHI and trg off checks. Exactly what checks do you have complete as a civSAR pilot? IRT and a base and line check?
The Valley aircraft had been hovertaxiing in cloud trying to reach the casualty but developed a utility hyd leak (no winching then) and shut down at a valley LS to investigate. On start-up they suffered a serious gearbox problem that required the aircraft to be airlifted by Chinook back to Valley. As 3D said - sh*t happens but since there are reports of a S92 in OZ having a major gearbox problem it isn't confined to the poor old Sea King is it?
As for training and checks - we have discussed at length that the mil does considerably more training, you and others say that is what makes us more expensive - by your logic it also makes us better operators
Is there a team that visits each civSAR flt every 18 months to check the admin, engineering and the flying like SAR Standards does? That is in addition to an annual cat check, sim trg, IRT and periodic QHI and trg off checks. Exactly what checks do you have complete as a civSAR pilot? IRT and a base and line check?
The Valley aircraft had been hovertaxiing in cloud trying to reach the casualty but developed a utility hyd leak (no winching then) and shut down at a valley LS to investigate. On start-up they suffered a serious gearbox problem that required the aircraft to be airlifted by Chinook back to Valley. As 3D said - sh*t happens but since there are reports of a S92 in OZ having a major gearbox problem it isn't confined to the poor old Sea King is it?
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Let me help Crab out with his nomenclature!
The civilian SAR S61 had a 4 axis autopilot a la Seaking giving it a height profile for the let down and hold in the hover.
The replacement a/c often had only a 3 axis autopilot with no height profile for the let down and hold in the hover. It still had the same autopilot as an offshore machine.
332M
The civilian SAR S61 had a 4 axis autopilot a la Seaking giving it a height profile for the let down and hold in the hover.
The replacement a/c often had only a 3 axis autopilot with no height profile for the let down and hold in the hover. It still had the same autopilot as an offshore machine.
332M
332 - yes and therefore not suitable for night or IMC over-water SARops ne c'est pas? By 3 axis autopilot you actually mean autostabilisation with a bar alt hold and a heading hold (and I believe no doppler hovermeter) - that is not actually an autopilot
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This one is for Crab
http://www.pprune.org/forums/rotorhe...or-blades.html
I did not know Seakings can fly without blades
Is the new standard in the RAF
Ive heard of cost cutting but this seems to be a little extreme
Never mind Crab there is always Civie Street
http://www.pprune.org/forums/rotorhe...or-blades.html
I did not know Seakings can fly without blades
Is the new standard in the RAF
Ive heard of cost cutting but this seems to be a little extreme
Never mind Crab there is always Civie Street
Crab,
At the risk of identifying myself, I have personal knowledge of engineering audits being carried out every six months at Lee and Portland before I retired, all part of the BHL ISO 9001 Quality Manual.
At the risk of identifying myself, I have personal knowledge of engineering audits being carried out every six months at Lee and Portland before I retired, all part of the BHL ISO 9001 Quality Manual.
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Pumaboy
A little childish your response to Crab. He has a belief and at least he sticks to it!
If you want to make silly posts then perhaps answer this question. Which SAR cab crashed after the pilot got disorientated at low level at night and who picked them up? To help it was about 1987/8 and featured on the documentary RESCUE.
332M
A little childish your response to Crab. He has a belief and at least he sticks to it!
If you want to make silly posts then perhaps answer this question. Which SAR cab crashed after the pilot got disorientated at low level at night and who picked them up? To help it was about 1987/8 and featured on the documentary RESCUE.
332M
Pumaboy - if you are a Brit mil Puma driver you really can't throw stones given the recent history of that force.
We can take the flak from the Chinook guys and girls - they will all be claiming they were the ones to USL the Sea King homeThanks for the rapid response.
OldLAE - I didn't say engineering audits didn't take place - please read my post again in context
We can take the flak from the Chinook guys and girls - they will all be claiming they were the ones to USL the Sea King home
Thanks for the rapid response.OldLAE - I didn't say engineering audits didn't take place - please read my post again in context
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If you want to make silly posts then perhaps answer this question. Which SAR cab crashed after the pilot got disorientated at low level at night and who picked them up? To help it was about 1987/8 and featured on the documentary RESCUE.
Crab, if you knew what you were talking about you'd know that the CAA, the operating company and the client all conduct operational and engineering audits on units but, as usual, you don't know what you're talking about. Keep on spinning!!!!!
I seem to recall that later in that series the Lossie cab rescued the crew of an RAF helicopter which had crashed in the mountains.
Walter picking up Paul Berriff ('Rescue' Producer) and the captain of the Lossie cab:
Crab,
I can only tell you what happened when I was active and BHL had the contract, the engineering audits were all that was required then as it covered the aircraft, hangar, workshops, paperwork and stores management, I may have forgotten some things after so long. Sometimes the audit coincided with the Ops audit but mostly it didn't.
I don't know what happens now, different company, different contract.
I can only tell you what happened when I was active and BHL had the contract, the engineering audits were all that was required then as it covered the aircraft, hangar, workshops, paperwork and stores management, I may have forgotten some things after so long. Sometimes the audit coincided with the Ops audit but mostly it didn't.
I don't know what happens now, different company, different contract.
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Is there a team that visits each civSAR flt every 18 months to check the admin, engineering and the flying like SAR Standards does? That is in addition to an annual cat check, sim trg, IRT and periodic QHI and trg off checks. Exactly what checks do you have complete as a civSAR pilot? IRT and a base and line check?
Crab as Oldlae (hello chap) above, times and routines may have changed. However.
IRT, usually included instrument base check
Day/Night VMC base check COT.
Day /night decks
Day/Night Line check or role check in the case of SAR
Winch check
Dinghy/escape drills
Plus of course medicals.
There are two missing, perhaps somebody can drag them from the shelf marked 'dust with care'.
The checks are all conducted by a training captain, the only difference between him and a service QHI is the appellation. When I worked with BHL the last two senior standards pilots, responsible for the whole system were a matelot and a crab. All their staff worked for BHL, however, and this point is often overlooked, they were testing on behalf of the CAA.
The training empire grew into a very efficient outfit, especially the one based in Aberdeen. It had to be efficient and thorough, there were in excess of 150 pilots to check and train. Add that requirement into the ongoing everyday flight ops which in the heyday were in excess of 70 flights by BHL alone per day, and you may understand why there had to be such good support and understanding between Operations staff, engineers and pilots. It wasn't always smooth, but it was always interesting.
Go on, get your shiny arse off to Lee and make some friends.
Crab as Oldlae (hello chap
) above, times and routines may have changed. However.IRT, usually included instrument base check
Day/Night VMC base check COT.
Day /night decks
Day/Night Line check or role check in the case of SAR
Winch check
Dinghy/escape drills
Plus of course medicals.
There are two missing, perhaps somebody can drag them from the shelf marked 'dust with care'.
The checks are all conducted by a training captain, the only difference between him and a service QHI is the appellation. When I worked with BHL the last two senior standards pilots, responsible for the whole system were a matelot and a crab. All their staff worked for BHL, however, and this point is often overlooked, they were testing on behalf of the CAA.
The training empire grew into a very efficient outfit, especially the one based in Aberdeen. It had to be efficient and thorough, there were in excess of 150 pilots to check and train. Add that requirement into the ongoing everyday flight ops which in the heyday were in excess of 70 flights by BHL alone per day, and you may understand why there had to be such good support and understanding between Operations staff, engineers and pilots. It wasn't always smooth, but it was always interesting.
Go on, get your shiny arse off to Lee and make some friends.
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Mr Crab
If you have read the Defence Aviation Safety Centre Journal 2008 (2.8Mb) you will see that at least one civil SAR operator, Bristow who continue to operate SAR aircraft in Den Helder under contract to NOGEPA, was considered worth featuring on the subjects of safety management & safety leadership for the education and benefit of the UK military.
As the Director of the MOD Aviation Regulation & Safety Group put it in his foreword:
... [in this issue] DASC Journal concentrates on issues relevant to operations and areas that continue to present flight safety challenges: Human Errors/Factors, the worrying upward trend of military rotary wing acci dentsand risk management.
...the article by Richard Burman and Andy Evans of the Bristow Group, describes the direction the Group is taking towards their ultimate goal of a ‘Zero Accident Rate’ for the Company. This is a significant challenge for them as they operate some 400 rotary wing aircraft worldwide in some very demanding environments supporting oil and gas industries.
I know that DASC (now DARS) are working with operators like Bristow, the CAAs and manufacturers in the European Helicopter Safety Team to spread best practice in all aspects of helicopter safety as part of the overarching International Helicopter Safety Team in which CHC has been playing a part in North America.
If you have read the Defence Aviation Safety Centre Journal 2008 (2.8Mb) you will see that at least one civil SAR operator, Bristow who continue to operate SAR aircraft in Den Helder under contract to NOGEPA, was considered worth featuring on the subjects of safety management & safety leadership for the education and benefit of the UK military.
As the Director of the MOD Aviation Regulation & Safety Group put it in his foreword:
... [in this issue] DASC Journal concentrates on issues relevant to operations and areas that continue to present flight safety challenges: Human Errors/Factors, the worrying upward trend of military rotary wing acci dentsand risk management.
...the article by Richard Burman and Andy Evans of the Bristow Group, describes the direction the Group is taking towards their ultimate goal of a ‘Zero Accident Rate’ for the Company. This is a significant challenge for them as they operate some 400 rotary wing aircraft worldwide in some very demanding environments supporting oil and gas industries.
I know that DASC (now DARS) are working with operators like Bristow, the CAAs and manufacturers in the European Helicopter Safety Team to spread best practice in all aspects of helicopter safety as part of the overarching International Helicopter Safety Team in which CHC has been playing a part in North America.
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332M
I was just throughing a little humour in to the light.
By the you are right about Crab but the only problem is he only see's things from one side and that is the Military side.
Both military sar and civil sar as had it's problem's but who hasn't?
No one is perfect and what about stopping this farse on who is better than the other at the end of the day we all doing the same job and we are supposed to help one another not back stab one another.
I thought the whole point of SAR was to help people in distress not picking fights on who is better than the other ( RAF, RN, CHC, Bristow)
At the end of the day who ever is running the UK SAR weather it be Mil or Civile Steet it is all down to politics and there is not a s..t anybody can do about it you can say your opinion but will it help?
Probably not .
At the end of the day we can look forward and help one another to make the service we provide a better one and safe one no matter who is running UK SAR
Sorry if I have upset any one but Im just being a little humourise and not being Childish.
Crab why not go and visit a Civie SAR base and speak to people who know about it you never know you might be supprised.
No hard feelings
I was just throughing a little humour in to the light.
By the you are right about Crab but the only problem is he only see's things from one side and that is the Military side.
Both military sar and civil sar as had it's problem's but who hasn't?
No one is perfect and what about stopping this farse on who is better than the other at the end of the day we all doing the same job and we are supposed to help one another not back stab one another.
I thought the whole point of SAR was to help people in distress not picking fights on who is better than the other ( RAF, RN, CHC, Bristow)
At the end of the day who ever is running the UK SAR weather it be Mil or Civile Steet it is all down to politics and there is not a s..t anybody can do about it you can say your opinion but will it help?
Probably not .
At the end of the day we can look forward and help one another to make the service we provide a better one and safe one no matter who is running UK SAR
Sorry if I have upset any one but Im just being a little humourise and not being Childish.
Crab why not go and visit a Civie SAR base and speak to people who know about it you never know you might be supprised.
No hard feelings
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Nobody has really posted a definite reply to the question of the S92's range.
Is it less than the Seaking which I know was better than the S61.
If it can't reach as far as the Seaking then somebody has made a big mistake - a newer replacement a/c should be able to give a better service than a 60s design.
The tit for tat between Mil and civil is a bit disappointing but SAR is a vital national resource and should be the best that we can afford.
The Seaking has had its' time now and are due for retirement - some must be nearly 40yrs old now - no wonder they are hard to keep serviceable.
The 92 is having problems as well - which may be usual for a new design as it beds in but at least one N Sea 92 was nearly lost due to a fault in the tail rotor assembly - fortunately they made it back to dry land.
So what is the truth - will the 92 ever be able to go as far as the Seaking without compromising cabin space?
2strops
Is it less than the Seaking which I know was better than the S61.
If it can't reach as far as the Seaking then somebody has made a big mistake - a newer replacement a/c should be able to give a better service than a 60s design.
The tit for tat between Mil and civil is a bit disappointing but SAR is a vital national resource and should be the best that we can afford.
The Seaking has had its' time now and are due for retirement - some must be nearly 40yrs old now - no wonder they are hard to keep serviceable.
The 92 is having problems as well - which may be usual for a new design as it beds in but at least one N Sea 92 was nearly lost due to a fault in the tail rotor assembly - fortunately they made it back to dry land.
So what is the truth - will the 92 ever be able to go as far as the Seaking without compromising cabin space?
2strops
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puma-child
Go on.....before I bite....be honest...your posts are a wind up aren't they?
If not your spelling, grammar and appreciation of the English language are only surpassed by your complete lack of understanding of SAR and of the meaning of the word 'humour'.
Another one for the ignore list.
Go on.....before I bite....be honest...your posts are a wind up aren't they?
If not your spelling, grammar and appreciation of the English language are only surpassed by your complete lack of understanding of SAR and of the meaning of the word 'humour'.
Another one for the ignore list.
Ah - at least bootneck has actually answered the question regarding training checks rather than launching off down the complete sideline of engineering audits. Perhaps I shouldn't have included engineering in the inspection routine of the Sar Standards because they don't carry out an engineering audit or a QA and it has led some off in completely the wrong direction.
So Bootneck what I think you mean is:
A GH sortie, a day/night SAR role sortie and an IRT in terms of flying checks and all done, I would suspect, in one visit by the TRE.
Our annual Cat check (conducted by the Sqn Trg staff) is the same but the IRT is done seperately by the IREs. On top of that the SAR Standards visit every 18 months (used to be every year until recently) and conduct ground and air tests, usually another GH sortie and a SAR role sortie on each pilot. On top of that the Flt QHIs and rearcrew T cats are expected to fly with their pilots/radops/winchmen to conduct continuation training on a regular basis.
Aditionally, we are one of the few remaining areas in the RAF that have retained the CR, CR(A) and CR(S) operating categories so that crews have something to aspire to and incentive to improve knowledge and skills - I don't believe such a system exists in the civsar world (no doubt it costs too much)
All this willy-waving is not to say we are better than you but to highlight what you will lose from UKSAR if and when the SARH contract is let in its present state. Not so many will transfer as is expected because seniority with the company will dictate posting locations so ex-mil will get the last choices and many of the experienced crews are caught in pension/ boarding school traps. Therefore, what do you think will happen to the quality, overall, of UK SAR?
So Bootneck what I think you mean is:
A GH sortie, a day/night SAR role sortie and an IRT in terms of flying checks and all done, I would suspect, in one visit by the TRE.
Our annual Cat check (conducted by the Sqn Trg staff) is the same but the IRT is done seperately by the IREs. On top of that the SAR Standards visit every 18 months (used to be every year until recently) and conduct ground and air tests, usually another GH sortie and a SAR role sortie on each pilot. On top of that the Flt QHIs and rearcrew T cats are expected to fly with their pilots/radops/winchmen to conduct continuation training on a regular basis.
Aditionally, we are one of the few remaining areas in the RAF that have retained the CR, CR(A) and CR(S) operating categories so that crews have something to aspire to and incentive to improve knowledge and skills - I don't believe such a system exists in the civsar world (no doubt it costs too much
)All this willy-waving is not to say we are better than you but to highlight what you will lose from UKSAR if and when the SARH contract is let in its present state. Not so many will transfer as is expected because seniority with the company will dictate posting locations so ex-mil will get the last choices and many of the experienced crews are caught in pension/ boarding school traps. Therefore, what do you think will happen to the quality, overall, of UK SAR?