How Can I Convince My Family That Helicopter Flying is No More Dangerous Than FW?
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Garfs I would not be too worried about them but rather worried that they are worried about you. Sometimes your loved ones know more about your misgivings in life than yourself - so if you feel up for it and you have great co-ord, vision, ability to concentrate and above all a sense of humour - Helo is for you. As for safety agree with other posters that once you are trained and you have decent equipment in a normal operating environment you will have a better chance of saving yourself in a RW aircraft than a FW in the event of most failures besides the tail boom snapping off and the MR blades detaching. There are a few other quite serious issues you could face up to but most have exact equivalents in the FW mode. In fact the only member of my family I would let a FW instructor take up in the beat up c150 at my school would be my mother in law - especially if she was paying.
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Hiya
Flying heli's can be dangerous, but so can crossing the road. Personally I would rather have an engine failure in a heli than in a FW. (I fly both at PPL level so my my comments need to be considered with my experience in mind).
I accept there are many other types of incident, but people that don't fly heli's dont usually understand them. I guess if your time is up, it's up but if I thought I was going to pop my cloggs every time i raised the collective I might as well become a recluse and stay at home wrapped in cotton wool.
Maybe you should tell your folks that the reason they think that heli's are dangerous is because incidents are so rare statistically, when there is an incident the press report it and it brings it home to roost.
Good luck and don't give up.
Flying heli's can be dangerous, but so can crossing the road. Personally I would rather have an engine failure in a heli than in a FW. (I fly both at PPL level so my my comments need to be considered with my experience in mind).
I accept there are many other types of incident, but people that don't fly heli's dont usually understand them. I guess if your time is up, it's up but if I thought I was going to pop my cloggs every time i raised the collective I might as well become a recluse and stay at home wrapped in cotton wool.
Maybe you should tell your folks that the reason they think that heli's are dangerous is because incidents are so rare statistically, when there is an incident the press report it and it brings it home to roost.
Good luck and don't give up.
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...but at least i didnt have to learn on a Robbo oops
Tosh! nothing wrong with a Robo, My father in Law is 89 hated flying in fixed-wing always felt claustaphobic in the back of a Cherrytree, was cold in the Nangchang CJ6 and found the Beach 18 he cadged a lift back to Waltham in from Biggin one year noisy.
But in a R44 he is happy as larry, loads of space, great visbaility warm and cosy as toast.
Hired one in Majorca from Sloane toured the Island.
Best holiday he ever had!!!!!
Last edited by Ken Wells; 18th Apr 2008 at 19:13.
First off I was astonished to learn that there wasn’t a bigger difference in statistics.. I sort of thought it was in the range of 2:1 – 4:1 more dangerous flying RW than FW. I must have been living in a cave..
rotorcraft had an accident rate of 9.47 per 100,000 aircraft hours flown, vs. 8.38 for fixed wing aircraft, and a fatal accident rate of 2.14 vs. 1.70 for fixed wing planes
When a single commercial airliner falls out of the sky, hundreds of people die. Two of them are pilots. When a helicopter crashes, there will be a lot less fatalities, but still one (or two) dead pilots.
As an example: To get a fatality rate of around 2 deaths per 100,000hrs, one commercial airliner with 200 people on board has to crash every 10 million flight hours.
To get the same fatality rate of 2 deaths per 100,000hrs, one hundred helicopters with 2 people on board have to crash every 10 million hours.
Of course, there are a million other factors in the real world that need to be looked at when comparing statistics like that. For example, I assume that a commercial F/W airline pilot spends more hours per year in the air than the average R/W pilot.
If you want to find out how safe a heli pilots job _statistically_ is, look at a "crew member" or "pilot" fatality per years on the job statistic.
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Garfs,
Listen to your heart and let it convince your family.
Don't make the same mistake I did.
I am still a plod. I am now 2 yrs away from being able to retire with a full pension and therefore I would now be stupid to quit the job. I had always wanted to learn to fly heicopters but I waited far too long to get off my backside and do it. I now have a PPL(H) and am currently working towards my CPL which I hope to have by the time I retire. (Better late than never I suppose).
My biggest regret is not listening to the nagging little voice in my head telling me to act far earlier than I did.
When I finally went for it, my family supported me wholeheartedly because they saw how much I wanted it.
Don't look for figures to convince them that flying helicopters is safe. Simply ask them to trust you to make sensible decisions and minimise risks.
Lord Mount
Listen to your heart and let it convince your family.
Don't make the same mistake I did.
I am still a plod. I am now 2 yrs away from being able to retire with a full pension and therefore I would now be stupid to quit the job. I had always wanted to learn to fly heicopters but I waited far too long to get off my backside and do it. I now have a PPL(H) and am currently working towards my CPL which I hope to have by the time I retire. (Better late than never I suppose).
My biggest regret is not listening to the nagging little voice in my head telling me to act far earlier than I did.
When I finally went for it, my family supported me wholeheartedly because they saw how much I wanted it.
Don't look for figures to convince them that flying helicopters is safe. Simply ask them to trust you to make sensible decisions and minimise risks.
Lord Mount
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Talking of statistics, throw this little known nugget of truth at your family...
The Bell 206 series of helicopter is safest single-engine aircraft in history (fixed-wing or heli) based on accidents per cycle.
I had the same problem convincing my wife & family I wasn't getting into a reckless industry that would soon see me dead. So I took the time to educate them about the machines and their pros and cons to airplanes, and that you can't really compare them as they are built to do 2 different jobs. It's like comparing a bus to a Jeep.
The Bell 206 series of helicopter is safest single-engine aircraft in history (fixed-wing or heli) based on accidents per cycle.
I had the same problem convincing my wife & family I wasn't getting into a reckless industry that would soon see me dead. So I took the time to educate them about the machines and their pros and cons to airplanes, and that you can't really compare them as they are built to do 2 different jobs. It's like comparing a bus to a Jeep.
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My family thought it was VERY dangerous flying helicopters ..........so they packed me off to Texas to get my CPL (H)
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Although my family didn't fund my helicopter training, my dad did his best to talk me out of it: he works in the Forest Service, flies in helicopters all the time, and has known a number of people who have been killed in helicopter accidents. (In fact, my little brother is named after a helicopter pilot who was killed in a high-DA crash in the Gila Wilderness.)
Once I had my PPL, though, he couldn't have been prouder. He saw how important it was to me and from that point on was 100 percent supportive. He even let me take my little brother up as my first passenger...
If this is truly something you want to do, you might just have to suck it up and make it happen on your own. Once your family sees your commitment, hopefully they'll come on board, literally and figuratively. As you progress through your training, you'll also pick up some knowledge and experience that will be helpful in pleading your case (for example, my dad was really relieved when I explained to him how helicopters are able to autorotate).
There are ways to mitigate the risk of flying helicopters, and attitude and good training are two of them. If you're personally committed to operating safely, your family should pick up on that, and that will ultimately be more convincing than any statistics.
Good luck!
Elan
Once I had my PPL, though, he couldn't have been prouder. He saw how important it was to me and from that point on was 100 percent supportive. He even let me take my little brother up as my first passenger...
If this is truly something you want to do, you might just have to suck it up and make it happen on your own. Once your family sees your commitment, hopefully they'll come on board, literally and figuratively. As you progress through your training, you'll also pick up some knowledge and experience that will be helpful in pleading your case (for example, my dad was really relieved when I explained to him how helicopters are able to autorotate).
There are ways to mitigate the risk of flying helicopters, and attitude and good training are two of them. If you're personally committed to operating safely, your family should pick up on that, and that will ultimately be more convincing than any statistics.
Good luck!
Elan
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You may want to get on the web site for the International Association of Oil and Gas Producers - I recently sat in on a presentation by a gentleman from their aviation safety office and when they compared the records of the offshore helicopter flights they contracted with commercial fixed wing operations they were on par will commuter operations and if I remember correctly better than air tour operators (I can't seem to find the presentation or I would PM it to you), either of which you would probably have to perform on your way up to the majors. A lot of the helo statistics come from training; an apt comparison might be the rates between Robis and Cessna 172s and then offshore ops to the commuters. EMS pilot is the most hazardous job in the US but you don't have to be an EMS pilot... that eliminates a lot of risk right there. I think if you can find the stats and present them effectively you should have a shot. (I always find pulling up the monthly lists on the NTSB web site to be an effective training tool... FW, FW, FW, FW, RW, FW, FW, FW, FW, FW, FW...)
Also I'm not sure where this rumor fixed wing boys (and ladies) are rolling in cash comes from... that may have been the case in the past but doesn't seem to be the case for my classmates. So far the only time my best freind from school (pilot) has made more than his wife (nurse) was when she was looking for work after a relocation... and he doesn't expect that to change for years. I went the safety side (flying the mighty desk) rather than flight ops and it will be a decade or so before he catches up with me as well. You may want to work out a future earnings curve for both sling wing and starch and see if there really is a monetary benefit in the end...
Also I'm not sure where this rumor fixed wing boys (and ladies) are rolling in cash comes from... that may have been the case in the past but doesn't seem to be the case for my classmates. So far the only time my best freind from school (pilot) has made more than his wife (nurse) was when she was looking for work after a relocation... and he doesn't expect that to change for years. I went the safety side (flying the mighty desk) rather than flight ops and it will be a decade or so before he catches up with me as well. You may want to work out a future earnings curve for both sling wing and starch and see if there really is a monetary benefit in the end...
Last edited by jolly girl; 18th Apr 2008 at 22:28. Reason: speliing
Hovering AND talking
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Shortly before my father died, he told me that I was to continue with my flying and do my darndest to fly professionally. Unfortunately, he was too ill for me take him for another flight.
And my mother keeps nagging me to get on with my training so I can take her flying again.
The point of this, is that my parents both came/come from an aeronautical background and therefore have some understanding of what's going on up there in the sky (and the rotorhead!!).
Garfs, I suspect that your parents reluctance is just lack of information and knowledge. If you take them for a trip, explain how it works and what happens when various emergencies arise, their fears may be allayed.
The statistics quoted are so small that to apply a % difference between fixed and helicopter is a nonsense; one more fixed wing accident per 100,000 and the stats are on par!!
Cheers
Whirls
And my mother keeps nagging me to get on with my training so I can take her flying again.
The point of this, is that my parents both came/come from an aeronautical background and therefore have some understanding of what's going on up there in the sky (and the rotorhead!!).
Garfs, I suspect that your parents reluctance is just lack of information and knowledge. If you take them for a trip, explain how it works and what happens when various emergencies arise, their fears may be allayed.
The statistics quoted are so small that to apply a % difference between fixed and helicopter is a nonsense; one more fixed wing accident per 100,000 and the stats are on par!!
Cheers
Whirls
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Thanks again EVERYONE for the replies, I have read and taken all on board.
Mini, as for doing it myself here, the difficult thing is I am out in Malaysia, where the average wage is peanuts, and training is going to cost me roughly £278 per hour.
To give you an idea, someone working at Mcdonalds here would be on around £0.50 an hour. If I worked in IT (what I did at uni) I'd probably be lucky to get much more than £4,000 a year at my level
Thats not saying if my parents wont loan me the cash I am going to give up tho. I am going to either arrange a flight for them, or at the very least get one of the instructors to speak with them to answer any questions.
I may have gotten somewhere today, when I promised that if I did go down the RW route and was fortunate enough to ever have the choice of what type of jobs I did one day, that I would stay away from what they deemed as most dangerous, ie EMS, Coastguard, Mountain Rescue etc.
Hope they start to see things a little differently soon
Mini, as for doing it myself here, the difficult thing is I am out in Malaysia, where the average wage is peanuts, and training is going to cost me roughly £278 per hour.
To give you an idea, someone working at Mcdonalds here would be on around £0.50 an hour. If I worked in IT (what I did at uni) I'd probably be lucky to get much more than £4,000 a year at my level
Thats not saying if my parents wont loan me the cash I am going to give up tho. I am going to either arrange a flight for them, or at the very least get one of the instructors to speak with them to answer any questions.
I may have gotten somewhere today, when I promised that if I did go down the RW route and was fortunate enough to ever have the choice of what type of jobs I did one day, that I would stay away from what they deemed as most dangerous, ie EMS, Coastguard, Mountain Rescue etc.
Hope they start to see things a little differently soon
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Out of curiosity, if we take out cattle mustering crashes, mountain flying mishaps, slingload snarl-ups -- in fact anything that isn't sedate onshore VFR air taxi work in ISA conditions (yep, it's a stretch but try), are we saying heli flying is actually fairly safe? You could make two fretful old aged pensioners in Midhurst rest more easily here...
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I've never yet got into a helicopter thinking "This might be dangerous". Mind you I've sometimes thought that, halfway into the flight! However, this has never stopped me going to work!
Life, as they say, is not a dress rehearsal. Enjoy the ride, not the destination.
Life, as they say, is not a dress rehearsal. Enjoy the ride, not the destination.
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The best way to convince them is to show them how much you love flying helicopters. Now, if you don´t have it clear yet, better not cheat yourself thinking that you are entering a glamorous career. Until you get into the cool part of the job, there is a laaaarge and haaard road.
Remember that if you are having problems convincing them at the beginning, imagine when you are loaded with the exams, stressed by not having hours enought to get your first job, probably having to move to another country to get hours..., spend more money...
Well, be prepared because it looks like you are getting into a very hard convincing work. But most importantly, do not lie to them. There are accidents, that´s right, however, if you were a truck driver, what would be the accident rate? At least, we have fun up there....
Remember that if you are having problems convincing them at the beginning, imagine when you are loaded with the exams, stressed by not having hours enought to get your first job, probably having to move to another country to get hours..., spend more money...
Well, be prepared because it looks like you are getting into a very hard convincing work. But most importantly, do not lie to them. There are accidents, that´s right, however, if you were a truck driver, what would be the accident rate? At least, we have fun up there....
Last edited by patatas; 19th Apr 2008 at 21:21.
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Sounds to me bud you have it bad. Good luck. Remember, on land, helos can autorotate with engine failure into a small area. FW have to find a long enough strip to land safely.
Ergo; At least we have a good chance of survival without chewing ourselves and the aircraft up... tell your folks that.
Also, remember that most accidents are redcorded as pilot error, not the a/c, so with proper training and experience, risks are seriously reduced.
Nothing wrong with Robbos... If you can fly a twitchy Robbo, you can fly anything.
I'd certainly advise taking your folks out on a test-ride to see what they think. I bet they'll love it. I wont take my father up, he's 65, if he went up, he'd get a taste for it and start having lessons!
All the best
Ergo; At least we have a good chance of survival without chewing ourselves and the aircraft up... tell your folks that.
Also, remember that most accidents are redcorded as pilot error, not the a/c, so with proper training and experience, risks are seriously reduced.
Nothing wrong with Robbos... If you can fly a twitchy Robbo, you can fly anything.
I'd certainly advise taking your folks out on a test-ride to see what they think. I bet they'll love it. I wont take my father up, he's 65, if he went up, he'd get a taste for it and start having lessons!
All the best
"Just a pilot"
Out of curiosity, if we take out cattle mustering crashes, mountain flying mishaps, slingload snarl-ups -- in fact anything that isn't sedate onshore VFR air taxi work in ISA conditions (yep, it's a stretch but try), are we saying heli flying is actually fairly safe? You could make two fretful old aged pensioners in Midhurst rest more easily here...
Yes, I think there are some specialties that are much more hazardous than air taxi, but even within that realm some operators do well. Excluding non-professional, non-commercial flying improves the numbers, too. Not to steal Bell Helicopter's thunder, the Jet Ranger and it's derivatives are true works of genius- but part of the reason that the 206 series had a claim as the safest single engine aircraft was the fact that it was the air taxi tool of choice. Operators safety records vary one from another, and most importantly to a pilot, maximize safety by supporting options for the individual. It's one thing to have safety and maintenance procedures in place, quite another to support the SAFE decision when the customer's screaming and it's costing everybody money.
To generalize, pilots WANT to fly, and will do so unless there's a really good reason not to. Encouraging a pilot to make the most conservative and safe decision is hard but goes a long, long way in keeping aircraft out of smoking holes.
Yes, I think there are some specialties that are much more hazardous than air taxi, but even within that realm some operators do well. Excluding non-professional, non-commercial flying improves the numbers, too. Not to steal Bell Helicopter's thunder, the Jet Ranger and it's derivatives are true works of genius- but part of the reason that the 206 series had a claim as the safest single engine aircraft was the fact that it was the air taxi tool of choice. Operators safety records vary one from another, and most importantly to a pilot, maximize safety by supporting options for the individual. It's one thing to have safety and maintenance procedures in place, quite another to support the SAFE decision when the customer's screaming and it's costing everybody money.
To generalize, pilots WANT to fly, and will do so unless there's a really good reason not to. Encouraging a pilot to make the most conservative and safe decision is hard but goes a long, long way in keeping aircraft out of smoking holes.