Cost for annual
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Cost for annual
Having been charged £8970 (inc VAT) for an annual on my 4 year old R44 (which took 3 weeks to complete). I am interested to know what others are being charged. Admittedly it needed a new exhaust (£2750) and the 500hr mag check, but this seems incredibly steep and long-winded.
What kind of hourly labour rate is acceptable?
They also chipped my paint (and touched it up with a brush hoping I wouldn't notice!) and left my main rotor blades seriously out of balance. The aircraft was not safe to fly when I collected it and the main rotor required rebalancing.
Thinking seriously about taking my business elsewhere.
Any recommendations?
SB
What kind of hourly labour rate is acceptable?
They also chipped my paint (and touched it up with a brush hoping I wouldn't notice!) and left my main rotor blades seriously out of balance. The aircraft was not safe to fly when I collected it and the main rotor required rebalancing.
Thinking seriously about taking my business elsewhere.
Any recommendations?
SB
Not Safe To Fly
The aircraft was not safe to fly when I collected it..........
In whose expert opinion was it not safe to fly, yours or the engineers who carried out the annual.
In whose expert opinion was it not safe to fly, yours or the engineers who carried out the annual.
Providing there was nothing abnormal with your machine I would change companies just because it took 3 weeks (unless you were told prior)!
That seems expensive for an exhaust, but for all I know that could be the going rate at the mo. As for damaging your machine, unfortunately these things do happen but it's never a good thing. Unfortunately quality of service varies widely from company to company. I once put our machines to an organisation who started working on it the second the skids touched the ground, and it would be returned in spanking condition following a full clean and fresh bill of health.
That seems expensive for an exhaust, but for all I know that could be the going rate at the mo. As for damaging your machine, unfortunately these things do happen but it's never a good thing. Unfortunately quality of service varies widely from company to company. I once put our machines to an organisation who started working on it the second the skids touched the ground, and it would be returned in spanking condition following a full clean and fresh bill of health.
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Including a new exhaust, swashplate rebuild, tail rotor bearing, star annual, C of A and ARC issue including extortionate CAA fees including a £92 permit for ONE flight because the job wasnt done before the old Cof A expired, I didn't get any change out of £6K and it needed a track and balance when I got it back. No vat on the labour. Welcome to the world of helicopter maintenance. Oh, by the way, An Enstrom, not a 44.
After an annual it usually takes me weeks to get it as good as it was before it went in.
Labour about £40/hour.
I usually keep the costs down by being there myself and doing a lot of the donkey work, but this time I had to leave them to it because of my bad back.
I'm not sure which hurt more!
Still, look on the bright side. It stops the masses from clogging up the skies like they have with the roads.
After an annual it usually takes me weeks to get it as good as it was before it went in.
Labour about £40/hour.
I usually keep the costs down by being there myself and doing a lot of the donkey work, but this time I had to leave them to it because of my bad back.
I'm not sure which hurt more!
Still, look on the bright side. It stops the masses from clogging up the skies like they have with the roads.
Hi scoots just had an annual done on my Raven II. It cost about £2,500 plus vat and they also scratched the tailboom! My wheels were missing and being used to transport another heli when I went to collect it. Personally think the whole maintenance thing in the uk is crap with this "fixed price servicing". Purchased my heli in Belgium and the main dealer there simply charged 48 euros per hour for the work. Even if that was pounds I'd be happy but trust me you aint going to change it. If your machine came back as bad as you say then I wouldn't pay the full amount and get it done else where in the future. Sorry to hear about your troubles.
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My R22 had its annual and C of A a few weeks ago. The bill was just under £6000 including a new engine oil cooler baffle at £480 plus £500 labour to replace it. The original one was apparently cracked. The items that did irritate me were a new pilots operating handbook and a new first aid kit, neither of which I had asked for. The labour rate was £55 per hour and the job took about 3 weeks in total.
Better red than ...
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A newish company mailed me their price list today, quoting annual incl all routine parts at £2.2k. Their prices look a bit higher than the current maint costs I pay and I'm not planning on swapping as I've found an operation that I trust, is well run and very efficient (and very busy, which is a good thing).
I guess yr prob will always be that you live on the tip of an peninsular at the far end of the country, and so geography is against you.
Its all the 'extras' that add up - ADs SBs Consumables Inflating the floats ...
Find a place (or a chief engineer) you trust and then trade with them.
h-r
I guess yr prob will always be that you live on the tip of an peninsular at the far end of the country, and so geography is against you.
Its all the 'extras' that add up - ADs SBs Consumables Inflating the floats ...
Find a place (or a chief engineer) you trust and then trade with them.
h-r
Scooter
You are entitled to request the labour rate for any company that are qualified to do the work, it might be worth flying a bit further to get to a company you are happy with. You should have been given a detailed bill showing the work carried out, did you know what work was required at the time, as redeye said a lot of extras might inflate the final bill. I hope you did not pay for the re-balance of the blades, but having said that why did the blades require balancing at an annual inspection? There must have been extra work which you didn't mention.
Helicopter maintenance is not cheap, certifying engineers are entitled to a fair wage. One of the problems of costing jobs is that out of an eight hour day, only about seven hours can accounted for, toilet visits, tea breaks notwithstanding, management has to make up for that and on a three week job it is easy to hide the man-hours and I am not saying that happened in your case, but it happens. I once carried out a enquiry into a maintenance cost on a plank job, I interviewed the Chief Engineer to get the story and when I eventually, much later, asked for the final bill for the breakdown of the man-hours I found that the company had taken £10,000 off the bill even though some of the cost was down to the owner not taking more care of his aircraft.
You are entitled to request the labour rate for any company that are qualified to do the work, it might be worth flying a bit further to get to a company you are happy with. You should have been given a detailed bill showing the work carried out, did you know what work was required at the time, as redeye said a lot of extras might inflate the final bill. I hope you did not pay for the re-balance of the blades, but having said that why did the blades require balancing at an annual inspection? There must have been extra work which you didn't mention.
Helicopter maintenance is not cheap, certifying engineers are entitled to a fair wage. One of the problems of costing jobs is that out of an eight hour day, only about seven hours can accounted for, toilet visits, tea breaks notwithstanding, management has to make up for that and on a three week job it is easy to hide the man-hours and I am not saying that happened in your case, but it happens. I once carried out a enquiry into a maintenance cost on a plank job, I interviewed the Chief Engineer to get the story and when I eventually, much later, asked for the final bill for the breakdown of the man-hours I found that the company had taken £10,000 off the bill even though some of the cost was down to the owner not taking more care of his aircraft.
Last edited by Oldlae; 29th Mar 2008 at 22:52.
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scooter boy
Hi, I just did a 500 hour / annual on a 4 year old R-44 a couple of months ago and including mag overhaul and parts & labour and a couple of AWDs cost around $4,600.00 CAN . I have over 20 years time on Robinsons Helicopters however I no longer work on them as often as I used to, but continue to to keep myself current on piston aircraft. I only deal with a few select customers that are willing to pay for a proper inspections and never balk at the price of good maintenance.
But in your case it sounds like you got taken to the cleaners, ask for a detailed explanation of what was done and if your still not satisfied seek out another more reputable AMO.
But in your case it sounds like you got taken to the cleaners, ask for a detailed explanation of what was done and if your still not satisfied seek out another more reputable AMO.
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Perhaps if it didn't cost so much bloody money to live in Britain, it would not cost so much for maintenance. All though I been to your lovely country many times, I just cannot fathom residing there with the high cost of living in your country.
Yes, but at least we have the CAA which keeps us from flying ...which actually then saves us money ......oh unless we are flying to MAKE money , in which case they cost us a fortune and stop us making any . understand ?
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An annual inspection does not include repairs and maintenance. The repairs and maintenance can be done as well if desired but the inspection can also be ordered without any repairs.
Just ask for an inspection and a list of discrepancies in writing. The owner should then review the list before the work is done. This should help satisfy the needs of both the owner and the maintenance facility.
slowrotor
(retired inspector)
Just ask for an inspection and a list of discrepancies in writing. The owner should then review the list before the work is done. This should help satisfy the needs of both the owner and the maintenance facility.
slowrotor
(retired inspector)
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If you own a helicopter, then you have enough money to maintain it! Stop the whining and pay the price. You guys will pay $120usd/hr in labor to get your car fixed, but moan and groan when it cost $55/hr to fix the helicopter! Jeez.
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I think you will find maintenance no cheaper than the equivalent of $80 per hour in the UK. This is not a lot and I am happy to pay my engineer. He does a good job. I trust him. Things dont always go perfectly but thats life.
I strongly object to the rip off regulatory fees and all the hours the engineer charges me to complete the bull**** required by the regulatory authority. This time it accounted for about 30% of the bill.
It adds nothing to safety. Its just part of rip off Britain.
When I asked the CAA man why it cost so much for a permit for a single relocation flight his answer was "it keeps us in a job" and he laughed.
I strongly object to the rip off regulatory fees and all the hours the engineer charges me to complete the bull**** required by the regulatory authority. This time it accounted for about 30% of the bill.
It adds nothing to safety. Its just part of rip off Britain.
When I asked the CAA man why it cost so much for a permit for a single relocation flight his answer was "it keeps us in a job" and he laughed.
Nice one Sorath!
A CAA Surveyor once told me, as I was entering the big world of civil aviation...
"Big Jets can get you big money;
Helicopters are complicated to manage and labour intensive;
Pistons aircraft are run by penny-pinchers who quibble over every rivet.
Business Jets are good money and good conditions - If the owner wants a new Radar and you ask him what type - he'll say "Colour!"
I don't think this statement has devalued very much over time.
Its never been a cheap "sport" - however, you shouldn't be ripped off either.
I think there's more to this than reaches the keyboard....
A CAA Surveyor once told me, as I was entering the big world of civil aviation...
"Big Jets can get you big money;
Helicopters are complicated to manage and labour intensive;
Pistons aircraft are run by penny-pinchers who quibble over every rivet.
Business Jets are good money and good conditions - If the owner wants a new Radar and you ask him what type - he'll say "Colour!"
I don't think this statement has devalued very much over time.
Its never been a cheap "sport" - however, you shouldn't be ripped off either.
I think there's more to this than reaches the keyboard....
Sorath, perhaps you should do your research before such an attack. In the uk where I and scooter come from the average cost per hour for maintenance work is £55 per hour which equates to $110! Secondly we have this fixed price for 50/100 annuals which doesn't relay to the actual time spent on the machine. many organisations over here do work without first getting authorisation to do it and thus a high bill is presented to the surprise of the owner. Finally 3 weeks is a rediculous time for a helicopter to be grounded for an annual and scooters complaints about how his heli was treated and the return condition of it were not mentioned in your post. To end with "jeez " you are obvioiusly easily annoyed.
" you are obvioiusly easily annoyed.
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SCOOTER BOY
I would be looking for a detail of what was done asap..... that is just shy of €11,500....... WOW........ Allot of money for anything.....
Secondly, what company preformed your annual?? I would be tempted to get a copy of the detail of what was done & send it to a few other companies for pricing.... Just for your own piece of mind to see if you were ripped off or justifiably charged.
The last thing is why did you need a new exhaust system????
4 years & 500 hours seems like a short life to me......
Tiny
I would be looking for a detail of what was done asap..... that is just shy of €11,500....... WOW........ Allot of money for anything.....
Secondly, what company preformed your annual?? I would be tempted to get a copy of the detail of what was done & send it to a few other companies for pricing.... Just for your own piece of mind to see if you were ripped off or justifiably charged.
The last thing is why did you need a new exhaust system????
4 years & 500 hours seems like a short life to me......
Tiny
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PEASACAKE,
As it happened my LPC was scheduled for the day I collected the machine. The "expert opinion" was that of the regional examiner. There was pretty significant vibration and a visible 2" gap between the tip paths.
Had I been PIC then I would have made the exact same call.
Being a reasonable kinda guy I will ask for a detailed breakdown of the work done (this was not included with the bill). I am well aware of the impact of CAA charges and bureaucracy and the way they drive up the prices and burden of paperwork, however I think this bill will take some justification.
Redeye is quite right that there aren't many options down here in the Southwest UK, however friends have recommended alternatives. My main reason for sticking with this outfit has been convenience, but having had 3 wks of downtime and a bill this size is making me reconsider.
I have no intention of paying any more for the rebalancing - this has already cost me £100 in landing fees, £70 in avgas and 0.9h loss of component life, I think I have paid enough.
I would be grateful for more recommendations for alternative maintenance organisations.
Thanks guys,
SB
As it happened my LPC was scheduled for the day I collected the machine. The "expert opinion" was that of the regional examiner. There was pretty significant vibration and a visible 2" gap between the tip paths.
Had I been PIC then I would have made the exact same call.
Being a reasonable kinda guy I will ask for a detailed breakdown of the work done (this was not included with the bill). I am well aware of the impact of CAA charges and bureaucracy and the way they drive up the prices and burden of paperwork, however I think this bill will take some justification.
Redeye is quite right that there aren't many options down here in the Southwest UK, however friends have recommended alternatives. My main reason for sticking with this outfit has been convenience, but having had 3 wks of downtime and a bill this size is making me reconsider.
I have no intention of paying any more for the rebalancing - this has already cost me £100 in landing fees, £70 in avgas and 0.9h loss of component life, I think I have paid enough.
I would be grateful for more recommendations for alternative maintenance organisations.
Thanks guys,
SB
Maintenance
Question answered.
I would have your invoice analysed confidentially by another organisation when you have a full breakdown of cost.
The trouble is that sometimes organisations use "trainees" on inspections and charge full rate for them, maybe this happened to you.
My own R44 had the opposite costs, my magnetos were due and my maintenance company missed them on the 500 inspection, it flew 880 hours before they were removed.
As you say the Southwest is not highly populated with maintenance organisations so choice is limited, Have you tried Rotorspan, lovely reception and service.
I would have your invoice analysed confidentially by another organisation when you have a full breakdown of cost.
The trouble is that sometimes organisations use "trainees" on inspections and charge full rate for them, maybe this happened to you.
My own R44 had the opposite costs, my magnetos were due and my maintenance company missed them on the 500 inspection, it flew 880 hours before they were removed.
As you say the Southwest is not highly populated with maintenance organisations so choice is limited, Have you tried Rotorspan, lovely reception and service.
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Thank god I have a reasonable priced engineer!
I did have to wait 3 weeks for the CAA to finish the paperwork though but at least it didn't cost more than 1500 GBP for the lot
( I suppose 1500 is good value - makes you think, I thought its a lot of money for an oil change and an mot!)
I did have to wait 3 weeks for the CAA to finish the paperwork though but at least it didn't cost more than 1500 GBP for the lot
( I suppose 1500 is good value - makes you think, I thought its a lot of money for an oil change and an mot!)