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Air Sea Rescue video - RACQ Careflight Helicopter

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Air Sea Rescue video - RACQ Careflight Helicopter

Old 29th Jan 2008, 08:59
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 818

Nobody could doubt your great experience in this field and your a straight guy so nobody could doubt your intentions are sincere but from what I've seen in these threads over the years its a minefield of local politics the Mods have always tried to keep in check to stop the forum being abused by folk with personal agendas.

Bronx is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 10:39
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
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The old "Glass Houses" and "stones" saying comes very easily to mind
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Old 29th Jan 2008, 10:48
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my Hammock or at the Pub!
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Successful mission = job done.

Sure there are debrief points, there always is! (which flight goes exactly as planned............?), there are always debrief points.

All professional crews have a wash up/lessons learnt analysis mode. This is what makes us all better and adds to safer and more efficient future ops.

Parky well done..........., good example of focus on the big picture and all the small shit will be taken care of.

Rock Chuckers, nothing CONSTRUCTIVE to add, clear off............


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Old 29th Jan 2008, 11:04
  #24 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
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On the 8th Day..............

Too many floggers, not enough time.

First round is on me.

Where is the smilie with the beer in his hand?

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Old 29th Jan 2008, 14:35
  #25 (permalink)  
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OOgle - I am not sure whether I should take your comments to mean you were one of the operating crew or not but I have the following observations:

If the pilot cannot see the vessel or only a small part of it and cannot see what is happening on the end of the winch wire, he MUST follow the con from the winch operator for any movement and especially the clearance away from the deck - if he does not he runs the risk of dragging the crewman and casualty through the myriad of obstructions that exist on most vessels. As you agreed, the clearance is pre-briefed but can change should the situation change (the boat could wander off heading or move unpredictably).

As to the tone of the patter - if you regularly fly with the same guy and you get used to him you do get used to the way he cons the aircraft - however, having listend to hundreds of cons from hundreds of winch ops, rapid patter (especially with a quickly corrected direction without using the word 'correction') is usually an indicator that he is working at capacity or something has gone badly wrong beneath the aircraft. In this particular case you can make your mind up about the winch op in question.

PO Dust devil - risking lives to save lives is exactly what SAR is all about. Winching clearances rely heavily on the winch op because the pilot cannot see underneath the aircraft - this doesn't mean the Pic is in the wrong place.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 23:08
  #26 (permalink)  
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Location: Newcastle, NSW
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Job well done guys.

Not too many people can say they haven't made a mistake or two in their lives. If everyone was perfect then we'd have nothing to talk about on this forum.

I guess on the day the excitement of it all might have caught up with the air crewman in question. I'll be the first to admit it has happened to me and the majority of others would say the same. We are only human and if we don't make the mistakes/ errors, how will we learn not to make the same again.

The guy is probably feeling bad about having the job posted for all of us to see/listen. We're all entitled to our opinions so lets just not get too carried away by it all and let him learn by it and may he be a better operator for it.

Just remember we all had to start somewhere!
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Old 30th Jan 2008, 07:26
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Aus, Europe & everywhere in between
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No. I wasn't part of the crew on that job. I am not even on the same continent at the moment.

I just know the how it is done at most of the EMS/SAR organisations in Aus.

Appreciate where you are coming from though.
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Old 30th Jan 2008, 11:00
  #28 (permalink)  
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Read my lips, if the difference between a safe or an unsafe winch is one incorrect word of patter then the PIC is in the wrong place and doesn't have the situational awareness the rest of the crew deserve.

If you had stated calculated risk.....mmmm I would consider that. Then make a call when we find a safe way..

It's not about risking lives to save lives AT ALL. I would much rather take my crew home safely with a survivor or two......In fact I would rather take my crew and machine home safely.....to save, another day.

Not much skill and thought involved in blundering in and crashing about everywhere. Even drunks and Gonzos can do that. over

PO dust devil is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2008, 12:21
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
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risking lives to save lives is exactly what SAR is all about.
Hi Crab
I've always admired your posts, may I suggest that your quote above is an aberration. I and many others deplore the cowboy attitude that SAR/EMS is dangerous, needs special deals etc.

I would suggest in the interest of improving safety that SAR/EMS is strictly routine, flying under assessed conditions with the skills and equipment to undertake the task or the PIC has the resposibility to veto.

Risk, is not accepted. Any pilot under that misaprehension needs to be jumped on.

Too often in this country we have had accidents where the above logic was not used and people were hurt, and killed.

The whole team in this scenario was under pressure, according to the TV news, they were at the extreme edge of endurance and accomplished the pick up in fourteen seconds.

Just recently we have seen a case on the confusion that often arises between different countries with their language idioms. Here I refer to the very public spat bewteen the Indian and OZ cricket teams and use of the word "monkey", so they say.

In this rescue, at a reasonable stress levels I suggest that the word "right" could well have meant "yes" or for you long winded people, "affirmative" or for the poofs in the party, "affirm".

It is a usual OZ contradictory expression as is "yeah, yeah, -- Nah!", or "Nah, Nah, I mean Yeah that's right, eh".

Why I do believe i have even seen the same contradictions of meanings on the famous Brit Tv show, 'The Vicar of Dibley.' Nuff said???

I don't at all countence the mannerism, especially if crews rotate at short notice, strict language procedures would be better. These guys were possibly very familiar with each other and it obviously was not a problem, as the TV camera has relayed.
cheers tet
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Old 30th Jan 2008, 13:54
  #30 (permalink)  
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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
crab·by /ˈkræbi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[krab-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, -bi·er, -bi·est.
Informal. grouchy; ill-natured; irritable; peevish.

Says it all really...
I too am in the trade, his mistaken directional patter was immediately corrected before a pilot input could have made and any pilot worth his salt has a microsecond of cautious thought before a cyclic input, I would love to meet this crabby chap as he could tell me of all the wonderful jobs he's done whilst I and a few of my equally inexperienced SAR buddies(crew average about 15years each person) could sit around gazing wistfully at our hero while donning shades to avoid the glare coming from his pompous rectum. I'm sure our Antipodean cousins are equally professional in every way regardless of their employ, and anyway who hasn't had a slip of the tongue before, flat calm or not. Off skiing for 3 weeks tomorrow so have fun y'all.
Blue Rotor Ronin is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2008, 16:55
  #31 (permalink)  
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Vie, you used the key words: Risk Management. That word implies a very good Safety Management System and working understanding there off. Everything is a risk, it is how you handle it and whether you are trained and experienced enough to deal with the onsite evaluation of a situation. Life and aviation is about decition making skills under pressure and unknown/undefined conditions. Question is: Are all off us sufficiently trained and experienced to make an informative decision? Think the crew did a good job, always easy to critisize afterwards and it can always be done better from an armchair!
Having worked for a few companies in my life(incl CHC), a company name does not qualify or disqualify a crew!!!!!
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Old 30th Jan 2008, 19:47
  #32 (permalink)  
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Topendtorque - firstly SAR and EMS are completely different animals and whilst extensive risk reduction is fine in EMS, risk management is the norm in SAR. The difficulty in trying to make hard and fast rules is that they are inflexible and therefore useless.

Imagine the risk to a colleague of mine and his crew when they hovertaxied in cloud and in the dark with a very poor NVG picture up the side of a mountain to reach a casualty - then hovertaxied back down to cloudbreak and flew to hospital. The casualty would have died if left on the mountain but the crew's daring and skill saved her life. This is where the risk averse start muttering about health and safety, blundering in and crashing around everywhere (PODustdevil). The fact is, if you are very well trained and have good CRM and risk assessment skills - you are already someway to mitigating the risk of the operation as you are going in with eyes wide open and aware of all the possible dangers. This is professional SAR.

If the TV report about being at the extreme of range and only having minimal time on scene (14 secs is about the time it takes to establish a briefing position ready for the lift) is to be believed, then it means they were taking far more risks for far less benefit - the guy wasn't going to die from his injuries if basic first aid was given. I suspect there may be some poetic licence in the TV report.

However I haven't stopped laughing at the notion his patter was some linguistic idiom....they saved all that for the extensive use of 'mate' after they were clear of the deck.

Blue rotor - another fine example of someone who has nothing to offer the topic other than personal abuse
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2008, 20:16
  #33 (permalink)  
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PO dust devil & topendtorque

Crab and vie have put into words exactly what I can't be bothered to sit here and type. Don't be so naive to think that all SAR missions can be achieved without risk.
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Old 30th Jan 2008, 20:39
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2004
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You guys are just so good, wonder if you've ever really had to make the hard call.......I hope you never get the chance to kill me or risk our passengers after they have survived a perfectly good crash somewhere......

In fact, don't bother knocking on my door for work. People would have to fly our machines after you've finished feeding your egos in them. There aren't any one job only career paths around here.

"you're gonna be saved if it kills you"

Hut hut hut

PO dust devil is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2008, 20:46
  #35 (permalink)  
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Hey Helofan,

Any chance you posted this in the knowledge the handbags hadn't had an airing in a while?
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Old 31st Jan 2008, 04:51
  #36 (permalink)  
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Now, now chaps - take a breath for a minute and ponder this quote, written by Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, dated September 1950:

"In flying, I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks"
From my point of view, that just about sums ANY form of aviation up. Particularly pertinent to this discussion about SAR/EMS, however. Enough already of the mudslinging and name-calling please - I, for one, would much rather pick up some hints and good advice based on the experience of other much more skilful pilots for use in my own flying career, than sit here reading some of the garbage on offer.

The Baffler
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Old 31st Jan 2008, 05:06
  #37 (permalink)  
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fish Lifer 1

Couldn't agree with you more Baffler,should quieten down now schools gone back(well in most of Oz at least) and the nit picking ,petty minded will have other things to think about,ie homework!! goodluck with the school year kiddies.

L1 out.
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Old 31st Jan 2008, 06:13
  #38 (permalink)  
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please de-register me

Oh dear - a slag off competition because of a video. The moderator needs to shut down this thread before someone posts another.
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Old 31st Jan 2008, 08:23
  #39 (permalink)  
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PO dustdevil - you still don't get it.

This isn't about trumpet blowing or back-slapping.

I am lucky enough to work with, train and examine some truly excellent exponents of SAR - I am trying to highlight for the unaware or inexperienced that actually, when things are getting really difficult, you rely utterly on your team members and one incorrect direction at the wrong time can cause big problems which is why we demand such high standards on SAR.

Last edited by [email protected]; 31st Jan 2008 at 17:27.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2008, 11:25
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
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which is why we demand such high standards on SAR.
Yep knew you would come good pretty quick, No risk at all is there.

Climbing mountains with limited visual reference, heard of that several times. What does the helicopter VFR say now? "Proceed at a speed commensurate with visibility"? or words to that effect. No problem, no risk, no need for thinking it's herioc or the extra mile, just part of the daily jungle.

Did just that the other day, cloud at 200 feet rain, rain and more rain, vis very short and in front of me, somewhere, is a dirty great power line that I must cross, with standing up and down sticks under it that reach at least eighty feet up. Big deal slow down, have a good look about.

I think the big diff here is that trangessing from wartime scernarios to peace time is difficult for some.
Battlefield commanders will know the statistics of attrition.
The PIC who has the best ability of calculated risk will often win -- and come home. He may not.

In peacetime the attrition is supposed to set at ZERO.. ZERO.
That means also the Risk is set at ZERO.
The only thing that is calculated is the competency, available equipment and a compatable flight plan forward, or it's no go.

cheers tet
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