The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions
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We had a catastrophic failure in a H300 and it jammed solid just like that. There was about a 5 sec warning with some worrying noise, but that was it. So it can happen, for sure.
Did you ever find out the cause?
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Thanks a lot for all the great replies!
So basically, advanced warning will not always be given, but if you are lucky you get a little warning. So you always have to be ready for that one second grace period
So basically, advanced warning will not always be given, but if you are lucky you get a little warning. So you always have to be ready for that one second grace period
from personal experience on 2 occasions -
O-320 but in plank wing.
Engine just off overhaul. Magneto bearing seized. Horrendous screeching, reduction in RPM and then large bang as the idler gear for that magneto failed and it carried on with the remaining mag. This was about 200' on takeoff over a large inhospitable gully. Poked the nose down as trained. After the bang it kept going so self preservation kicked in and carried on for tight circuit over nicer territory to land.
Dropped exhaust valve. As the guides wear the valve when it drops onto the seat does so unevenly. Eventually after this type of battering the head eventually drops off. No big deal you think - there are 3 other cylinders. What they don't tell is that due to the large overlap in the valve timing the broken bits of valve will find their way all the way back through the inlet to the other cylinders. These bits as they bounce around will slowly batter the spark plug gap closed. Lucky to drag it back to the airfield. Dropped valve in this case had also twisted the connecting rod.
I have seen a dropped valve on a R22 push the lower spark plug right out of the cylinder (along with parts of the head). They do not go very well on the remaining 3.
Unless as quoted "water or too much air in the fuel or a dose of carb icing" the Lyco 320 and 360 are pretty tough. The 320 is probably slightly better than the 360 which never runs as smooth.
O-320 but in plank wing.
Engine just off overhaul. Magneto bearing seized. Horrendous screeching, reduction in RPM and then large bang as the idler gear for that magneto failed and it carried on with the remaining mag. This was about 200' on takeoff over a large inhospitable gully. Poked the nose down as trained. After the bang it kept going so self preservation kicked in and carried on for tight circuit over nicer territory to land.
Dropped exhaust valve. As the guides wear the valve when it drops onto the seat does so unevenly. Eventually after this type of battering the head eventually drops off. No big deal you think - there are 3 other cylinders. What they don't tell is that due to the large overlap in the valve timing the broken bits of valve will find their way all the way back through the inlet to the other cylinders. These bits as they bounce around will slowly batter the spark plug gap closed. Lucky to drag it back to the airfield. Dropped valve in this case had also twisted the connecting rod.
I have seen a dropped valve on a R22 push the lower spark plug right out of the cylinder (along with parts of the head). They do not go very well on the remaining 3.
Unless as quoted "water or too much air in the fuel or a dose of carb icing" the Lyco 320 and 360 are pretty tough. The 320 is probably slightly better than the 360 which never runs as smooth.
Last edited by RVDT; 23rd Jun 2011 at 17:39. Reason: Crap spelling
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(thanks)RVDT: Thats what I was thinking about; you had very noticeable warning that things were going bad. Flying an r22, that would allow you to reduce power immediately so that you have more time if the engine seizes completely.
But I guess that is not always the case, so you always have to be ready.
But I guess that is not always the case, so you always have to be ready.
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I've had warning of a coming engine failure in both piston (R22) and turbine (206Land S76) machines.
In the R22 I was in cruise and the engine tone changed suddenly. No change to the flight characteristics but the MAP dipped a little. I was 10 minutes from base and came in and landed. Told the engineer what I had experienced and he checked it out, turns out a head gasket developed a small crack and was leaking pressure which explained the change in noise. It would have flown quite a bit more before failing completely but still, it gave ample warning.
In the 206 it was different. The engine had just had the 1st stage replaced the day before. Took her for a test flight and it passed the power check no problem. A few flights later that day I noticed an odd high pitch noise coming from the 1st stage as it spooled down. I can only liken it to a singing noise. This would then be followed by a sudden grinding stop. Yikes!! I called the engineer and told him what I heard as best I could. He told me to run it at 100% for 5 minutes and shut down and see if it repeated the noise. I did, and it did. When I called and told him his reply was a volley of profanity and curses at the machine (not me) and he said "Do not so much as even hit the starter on it again.... it's f**ked." He arrives hours later with a new 1st stage section and replaced the other "new" one and all was good. A month later when the report came back from the overhaul shop they claimed it to be faulty from the manufacturer. The chief engineer claimed I had between 5 minutes and 5 hours at 100% before the 1st stage would have seized and pretty much imploded the rest of the engine downwind of it. Yay!
In the S76 at cruise I've encountered sever compressor stalling in one engine. Diverted to a runway a few minutes away (thank God!!!) and did a run on landing without further issue. Again, the engine was within an hour of eating itself as the FCU decided to crap out. Joy.
All in all, any engine will almost always tell you it's sick. The trick is learning how to listen to it
In the R22 I was in cruise and the engine tone changed suddenly. No change to the flight characteristics but the MAP dipped a little. I was 10 minutes from base and came in and landed. Told the engineer what I had experienced and he checked it out, turns out a head gasket developed a small crack and was leaking pressure which explained the change in noise. It would have flown quite a bit more before failing completely but still, it gave ample warning.
In the 206 it was different. The engine had just had the 1st stage replaced the day before. Took her for a test flight and it passed the power check no problem. A few flights later that day I noticed an odd high pitch noise coming from the 1st stage as it spooled down. I can only liken it to a singing noise. This would then be followed by a sudden grinding stop. Yikes!! I called the engineer and told him what I heard as best I could. He told me to run it at 100% for 5 minutes and shut down and see if it repeated the noise. I did, and it did. When I called and told him his reply was a volley of profanity and curses at the machine (not me) and he said "Do not so much as even hit the starter on it again.... it's f**ked." He arrives hours later with a new 1st stage section and replaced the other "new" one and all was good. A month later when the report came back from the overhaul shop they claimed it to be faulty from the manufacturer. The chief engineer claimed I had between 5 minutes and 5 hours at 100% before the 1st stage would have seized and pretty much imploded the rest of the engine downwind of it. Yay!
In the S76 at cruise I've encountered sever compressor stalling in one engine. Diverted to a runway a few minutes away (thank God!!!) and did a run on landing without further issue. Again, the engine was within an hour of eating itself as the FCU decided to crap out. Joy.
All in all, any engine will almost always tell you it's sick. The trick is learning how to listen to it
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In the R22 I was in cruise and the engine tone changed suddenly. No change to the flight characteristics but the MAP dipped a little. I was 10 minutes from base and came in and landed. Told the engineer what I had experienced and he checked it out, turns out a head gasket developed a small crack and was leaking pressure which explained the change in noise. It would have flown quite a bit more before failing completely but still, it gave ample warning.
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One of my lyco 360s generated a small amount of metal in the fine strainer following a bottom end rebuild. General engineering consensus was to keep an eye on it. It did this for 300 hours when rather larger bits started to appear. The decision was taken to withdraw from service and investigate. The centre main bearing had failed big time - no white metal left and it had scored the crank. There was no other major damage. The only other symptom was sparkly bits in the oil when viewed under sunlight. Performance and oil pressure were normal throughout. Cant have been too far off catastrophic failure.
Dont ignore sparkly bits in the oil!
Dont ignore sparkly bits in the oil!
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So basically, advanced warning will not always be given, but if you are lucky you get a little warning. So you always have to be ready for that one second grace period
So that means you probably have about 4 times as long as you need!
PS. I got Ave - 0.2766
Johe: If only everyone went round poised ready to react for that fatal silence...NOT!
Secondly - don't fly a bloo** Robinson then the problem will go away. Fly a proper helicopter, not a LADA
Secondly - don't fly a bloo** Robinson then the problem will go away. Fly a proper helicopter, not a LADA
Join Date: Sep 2007
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I think Old TC is trying to win the "Mr Grumpy Old Man" Cup.
It comes to us all in time, but he is right.! ..the 22 is too risky, for a few more sheckles you could fly somthing bigger, and then at least your reaction time would stretch to maybe 1 to 2 seconds or do a JetR thats a different sort of flying altogether.
Pprune just wouldn't feel right without TC launching his stingers at us ...sometime's!!
Eh.. TC what do ya say...!!
Peter R-B in wetland near Pendle Hill, just going in for a nice G&T.
It comes to us all in time, but he is right.! ..the 22 is too risky, for a few more sheckles you could fly somthing bigger, and then at least your reaction time would stretch to maybe 1 to 2 seconds or do a JetR thats a different sort of flying altogether.
Pprune just wouldn't feel right without TC launching his stingers at us ...sometime's!!
Eh.. TC what do ya say...!!
Peter R-B in wetland near Pendle Hill, just going in for a nice G&T.
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Well two 'proper' helicopters crashed on the board at the moment.
I personally think you have more chance of getting a more warning from a piston engine than a turbine. The 1 second they talk about is just theory. . Its down to the pilot.
I had an instructor cut the power on me in an R22 climbing away from the airfield at 300ft. It went like this - <closes throttle> says, "the engine has just failed what are you going to do about it" I say, "What"!? . . Slight pause and he takes over and completes a 180 auto back inside the airfield boundary.
I wasn't counting but that's gotta be more than a second. . . I'll get my coat
I personally think you have more chance of getting a more warning from a piston engine than a turbine. The 1 second they talk about is just theory. . Its down to the pilot.
I had an instructor cut the power on me in an R22 climbing away from the airfield at 300ft. It went like this - <closes throttle> says, "the engine has just failed what are you going to do about it" I say, "What"!? . . Slight pause and he takes over and completes a 180 auto back inside the airfield boundary.
I wasn't counting but that's gotta be more than a second. . . I'll get my coat
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I had a blown gasket on one cylinder with oil coming in and believe me there is no mistake that the engine was f****d. Smoke and a shaking airframe like no tomorrow.
What would be more worrying is carb icing and MR icing (which I believe led to a fatal crash in the UK some years ago)
What would be more worrying is carb icing and MR icing (which I believe led to a fatal crash in the UK some years ago)
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I had an instructor cut the power on me in an R22 climbing away from the airfield at 300ft. It went like this - <closes throttle> says, "the engine has just failed what are you going to do about it" I say, "What"!? . . Slight pause and he takes over and completes a 180 auto back inside the airfield boundary.
The awesome abilities of most instructors never ceases to amaze me, however assuming my less impressive skills allowed me to recognise the problem in time, with a 10 second window I'd pretty much be going down to flare into whatever's ahead of me, which is why I usually go to the upwind end of the airfield/take off area to start my departure so if it happens that low I'm still over the nice grassy bits.
And I dumped an R22 for an R44 pretty much for the reasons stated above: I had more confidence as a low hours ppl that I would be able to sort out a 44 EF than a 22. That's as close to following TC's delicately articulated advice as I could afford to go!
It's unarguable that having the lowest hours pilots in the aircraft that require some of the fastest responses to an engine failure is less than ideal. It all comes down to money: if it's all you can afford and you're prepared to take the risk, you have to do it, but the carriage of pax is on your own conscience (I rarely carried them in a 22 sub 200 hours).
Lafite
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You need to retain a proper perspective about engine failure. It is not a common way of crashing a helicopter: just look at the stats.
My understanding of the design of the R22 is that the engine was derated to reduce the chance of failure further. It is true that the relatively low rotor inertia means that IF you had one, you need to respond quickly to maintain/recover RRPM. The other side of the coin is that once the lever is down, RRPM will recover quicker than a high inertia system.
If I was worried about flying with a low time pilot in an R22 (as a pax without a stick) it would not be his response to engine failure but so many other things.
My understanding of the design of the R22 is that the engine was derated to reduce the chance of failure further. It is true that the relatively low rotor inertia means that IF you had one, you need to respond quickly to maintain/recover RRPM. The other side of the coin is that once the lever is down, RRPM will recover quicker than a high inertia system.
If I was worried about flying with a low time pilot in an R22 (as a pax without a stick) it would not be his response to engine failure but so many other things.
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When I was training people, I always made sure at the end of the lesson when we were back on the ground and the wrung-out student thinks all that learning stuff is over, to tell the student to "Listen!" as they pull the bit that's going to kill the engine.
When the engine coughed out I would say to their puzzled faces, "That's what an engine failure sounds like! That may be all the warning you get!"
When the engine coughed out I would say to their puzzled faces, "That's what an engine failure sounds like! That may be all the warning you get!"
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Great responses! Thank you.
Thankfully they don't happen often. Unfortunately they do lol.
Way off topic: Is a downwind autorotation dangerous, besides the fact that you may land with a higher groundspeed that you would if you were into the wind?
Thankfully they don't happen often. Unfortunately they do lol.
Way off topic: Is a downwind autorotation dangerous, besides the fact that you may land with a higher groundspeed that you would if you were into the wind?
Ifresh21: I think your answer to my original question "do you drive a car", is now in no doubt: You don't do you, because you are only 8 yrs old aren't you? Hence your questions.......
Now who is going to get suckered into this one then lads??????
Now who is going to get suckered into this one then lads??????
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TC, I can't help wondering: what is gained by refusing to answer the guy's question? You've spent more effort on downing the guy then you would by answering the question, and even that's more than you'd spend on ignoring him.
