The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions
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Hi all! 
WoW!! DO we have a little temper here and there!
Well, TC, could it be that you "just had it", "enough", "bad day/streak" lately (...like myself - lately)....
Okay, personally I never saw TC giving any bad advice or answer, so I won't comment more on that....
I believe ifresh21s question is certainly legitimate - not all engine"out"s are of the "instant silence" type, some do advise their arrival and others are instant failures, but keep making noises (aweful ones!) until they are certainly dead!
Now, I would differentiate between a "engine failure" (as in the engine broke and died or is on the way to do so...) and an "engine out" (as in fuel starvation, dumb a** who did not drain the fuel and now tried to run the engine on water, etc....)
One thing is if the engine breaks, another if the engine is "not allowed" to work...
Though - for this "friendly discussion" it doesn't really matter WHY the "Great Silence screams at you!", does it!
Okay, now.....
I am certainly in favor to get new folks going and give them all the advice they want!
However before I start to spill my elitist, egoistic cab-driver knowledge/experiences on someone, I would like to know HOW FAR ALONG the chap is, so I don't waist my precious time trying to impress the new guy with things and stories he won't grasp, yet....
This business is quite unique and there are a lot of instances one might as well talk to a wall, unless the listener "was there, done that" or at least somewhere near.
E.g.: What gives if I try to explain what it feels like or what you should do if you need to put down the tip of a skid on a rock in the middle of a river and have 3 scientists get out of or into the helo... - ....when you are not even close to maintain a steady hover on the training pad.....
So,
ifresh, why don't you let us all know, WHERE you are at this time in your training/career!
THEN, I am willing to give you all the advice/experience/stories you can digest at YOUR level of helicopter prowess!
And no worries, ALL of us started sometime - ....but pretending won't make you any wiser.....
'nough said....
3top
WoW!! DO we have a little temper here and there!
Well, TC, could it be that you "just had it", "enough", "bad day/streak" lately (...like myself - lately)....
Okay, personally I never saw TC giving any bad advice or answer, so I won't comment more on that....
I believe ifresh21s question is certainly legitimate - not all engine"out"s are of the "instant silence" type, some do advise their arrival and others are instant failures, but keep making noises (aweful ones!) until they are certainly dead!
Now, I would differentiate between a "engine failure" (as in the engine broke and died or is on the way to do so...) and an "engine out" (as in fuel starvation, dumb a** who did not drain the fuel and now tried to run the engine on water, etc....)
One thing is if the engine breaks, another if the engine is "not allowed" to work...
Though - for this "friendly discussion" it doesn't really matter WHY the "Great Silence screams at you!", does it!
Okay, now.....
I am certainly in favor to get new folks going and give them all the advice they want!
However before I start to spill my elitist, egoistic cab-driver knowledge/experiences on someone, I would like to know HOW FAR ALONG the chap is, so I don't waist my precious time trying to impress the new guy with things and stories he won't grasp, yet....
This business is quite unique and there are a lot of instances one might as well talk to a wall, unless the listener "was there, done that" or at least somewhere near.
E.g.: What gives if I try to explain what it feels like or what you should do if you need to put down the tip of a skid on a rock in the middle of a river and have 3 scientists get out of or into the helo... - ....when you are not even close to maintain a steady hover on the training pad.....
So,
ifresh, why don't you let us all know, WHERE you are at this time in your training/career!
THEN, I am willing to give you all the advice/experience/stories you can digest at YOUR level of helicopter prowess!
And no worries, ALL of us started sometime - ....but pretending won't make you any wiser.....
'nough said....
3top
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Can you also have your spindle bearings damaged by constantly flying over maximum gross weight? I am very light, so not much of a deal for me, but I know people who must be out of cg constantly by at least 50 pounds on the R22.
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I think I would almost certainly say yes but would prefer to bow to the experience of any experienced engineer.
I believe that the limiting factor in the older baldes was the integrity of the blade root structure.
You may find in these threads history of an Isreali machine that a blade parted company from, AUW rumoured to be quite excessive, and another NZ machine which a blade parted company from, rumoured to be within AUW but it was a spraying machine in a cool climate, more power y'know.
I know of one or two machines that flew abour 22-28% over AUW for a while but the blades haven't failed - yet - but then again I never saw the spindles or history of possible changes.
A massive no no I would suggest, they just dont fly well, a bit like the overloaded Aztec or big Cherokee, they tend to wallow fore and aft. Not at all pleasant
tet
I believe that the limiting factor in the older baldes was the integrity of the blade root structure.
You may find in these threads history of an Isreali machine that a blade parted company from, AUW rumoured to be quite excessive, and another NZ machine which a blade parted company from, rumoured to be within AUW but it was a spraying machine in a cool climate, more power y'know.
I know of one or two machines that flew abour 22-28% over AUW for a while but the blades haven't failed - yet - but then again I never saw the spindles or history of possible changes.
A massive no no I would suggest, they just dont fly well, a bit like the overloaded Aztec or big Cherokee, they tend to wallow fore and aft. Not at all pleasant
tet
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"Thanks Squeaks....I suspected as such.
Stringfellow / Aerobot / FSXPilot: any comments?"
I have, thank you for asking. I'd say that it's even more important to give the new kids the right answers straight off and that treating them as if they're not good enough to rate our time doesn't really advance anything except perhaps the stroking of our own insecure egos.
Furthermore, the nature of the question implies that this is not a situation in which one can say "R.T.F.M." Obviously this is a question from someone without a lot of experience, so to demand their qualifications for intruding on your time is disingenuous at best. If you don't feel they're worth your time do something else. But to spend your time telling them that they're not worth your time rather implies something other than what you might have intended.
If the fellow is still reading and hasn't been put off by TC, there are a few other things that it might just save his life to know: one is that, aside from my previous advice, piston engines often flutter just before dying. That was the case in my H269C. Practicing for 180-degree autos, the instructor rolled it off and it went "flutter-flutter-flutter, dead." As we discovered later when it was investigated (hours after my instructor took over the auto and brought us to a cold stop ten feet over the tarmac - BANG!) the fault was the absence of a cotter pin on the correlator, which allowed the butterfly valve to snap shut and choke off the engine.
So, unless it snaps a shaft or sucks a valve it will probably make some noise just before it quits - in fact I've heard of Lycomings sucking a valve and still flying home - complaining but flying.
But our newbie should not just worry about engine failures and the warnings thereof: of just as much import is the possibility of a drivetrain failure. The one time I experienced that there was no warning at all save a godawful BANG just behind my head as rotor RPM dove for the carpet.
The practical answer is that you will generally get about a second's worth of something going wierd just before it quits - but count on it happening only when you're not paying attention to it. So live with your left arm spring-loaded: anytime it does something the least bit strange - get the collective down. If you were just being an old woman you can always bring the power back in.
Stringfellow / Aerobot / FSXPilot: any comments?"
I have, thank you for asking. I'd say that it's even more important to give the new kids the right answers straight off and that treating them as if they're not good enough to rate our time doesn't really advance anything except perhaps the stroking of our own insecure egos.
Furthermore, the nature of the question implies that this is not a situation in which one can say "R.T.F.M." Obviously this is a question from someone without a lot of experience, so to demand their qualifications for intruding on your time is disingenuous at best. If you don't feel they're worth your time do something else. But to spend your time telling them that they're not worth your time rather implies something other than what you might have intended.
If the fellow is still reading and hasn't been put off by TC, there are a few other things that it might just save his life to know: one is that, aside from my previous advice, piston engines often flutter just before dying. That was the case in my H269C. Practicing for 180-degree autos, the instructor rolled it off and it went "flutter-flutter-flutter, dead." As we discovered later when it was investigated (hours after my instructor took over the auto and brought us to a cold stop ten feet over the tarmac - BANG!) the fault was the absence of a cotter pin on the correlator, which allowed the butterfly valve to snap shut and choke off the engine.
So, unless it snaps a shaft or sucks a valve it will probably make some noise just before it quits - in fact I've heard of Lycomings sucking a valve and still flying home - complaining but flying.
But our newbie should not just worry about engine failures and the warnings thereof: of just as much import is the possibility of a drivetrain failure. The one time I experienced that there was no warning at all save a godawful BANG just behind my head as rotor RPM dove for the carpet.
The practical answer is that you will generally get about a second's worth of something going wierd just before it quits - but count on it happening only when you're not paying attention to it. So live with your left arm spring-loaded: anytime it does something the least bit strange - get the collective down. If you were just being an old woman you can always bring the power back in.
Last edited by Aerobot; 1st Jul 2011 at 14:31. Reason: grammar
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I'm quite sure a lot of people gained some useful insight into engine failures from this thread, many of whom would not have dared to post such a question.
so, thanks ifresh for daring to ask the "silly" questions!
so, thanks ifresh for daring to ask the "silly" questions!
Can I please remind you yet again that this is NOT the forum for individuals like IFresh, cute cheeky chappie that he is
The forum for guys questions like this is quite clearly set out on page 1:
.
Not this:
I'm the first to help pilots out: right time, right place. There seems to be "forum creep" on Pprune of late where some misguided threads linger in the wrong forums for eternity. It's a minority at the mo, but growing.
Some of us (me included) are being 'drawn into' miscellaneous useless diatribes (MUD) by boy wonders in their R22's or wannabees flying RC helicopters who want advice....Guys target the right group will ya? When you get your Blue Peter Badge, you can then join in.
There....how'd I do Peter R/B, 3top, on the grump scale
Bah humbug
The forum for guys questions like this is quite clearly set out on page 1:
Wannabes Forums:
Forums for those aspiring to join our fraternity of professional aviators with the best view in the house. Please use the Private Flying forum for initial PPL issues and anything not connected with professional licences.
Forums for those aspiring to join our fraternity of professional aviators with the best view in the house. Please use the Private Flying forum for initial PPL issues and anything not connected with professional licences.
Not this:
Rotorheads:
A haven for professional helicopter pilots to discuss the things that affect them.
A haven for professional helicopter pilots to discuss the things that affect them.
Some of us (me included) are being 'drawn into' miscellaneous useless diatribes (MUD) by boy wonders in their R22's or wannabees flying RC helicopters who want advice....Guys target the right group will ya? When you get your Blue Peter Badge, you can then join in.
There....how'd I do Peter R/B, 3top, on the grump scale
Bah humbug
Join Date: Jul 2002
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TC!!
You're doing fine, Mate!!
TO all,
TC is right on the spot - thinks me....
So far we are lucky that this forum has mods and so far they are VERY lenient.
I don't want to see this forum go the way a certain Un-moded one went....
Personally I don't mind questions like this one, but from experience gleaned from other forums, most newbees DON'T even read up on the forum rules/suggestions, DON'T bother to do a search - admitted, the search function in about all forums suc** big time, but a "restricted/defined" search on Google generally finds you plenty to read about your topic.
E.g. Google "Engine failure warning signs, Pprune" and everything about the topic on Pprune will show first.....
We all started sometime at ZERO and I for one learned heaps on here (Pprune), but generally I did my homework first.
NOT to say ifresh didn't do it - but we are already discussing if it makes sense to give advice if personal experience/training level is not yet ready to digest the info or worse is taken in the wrong context.
Granted, for those that are just out of helo-kindergarten and on their way to grad-school, it may sound a little arrogant/elitist/egoistic
- BUT just recently I had another episode of "taking information the wrong way", and that from a 5k+ hrs pilot that has already some real and interesting work experience. (see below)
So, I for one, DO WANT to know WHERE the chap is on his EXPERIENCE LEVEL, before I tell him MY experiences!!
We heard quite a few interesting episodes here, but so far I only remember one partially correct answer/guideline/tip from Aerobot (including myself...):
"So live with your left arm spring-loaded: anytime it does something the least bit strange - get the collective down. If you were just being an old woman you can always bring the power back in." - by Aerobot
However I only agree partially.
Over the years, I learned, that even MORE important than the initial collective down, is the initial cylic BACK. (If you need more details, ask! Remember - my time is PRECIOUS)
THEN, although I get what Aerobot says, someone like ifresh might interpret "spring loaded" as "smack it to the floor when the engine quits!"
Well, thanks, but NO!
"Lower the collective but smoothly" or you might find yourself all over the place! Again, ask for more ....
Finally, "old woman" are often tougher than the hardest Rambo out there!
Sounds like "chicken" to me - when this is EXACTLY what you should be taught in Flightschool!
Always looking out for an emergency landing place is theory at best:
You just don't fly looking for ELSs all the time, and even if you just overflew a pefect one, when the "need for it arises" - hopefully you still remember you have it right on your 6.
However, often the ELS does not matter anymore if the helo never gets a chance to autorotate.
So, my advice is (and I do teach that - ....just induce some abnormal reactions now and then -), no matter WHAT the unusual "thing" is:
Rough engine, turbulence, cyclic wiggle, vibration, bug on the windshield....
Be prepared to pull back and push down!
This has to become automatic (that's why I train it with students).
Now to avoid misunderstandings, I will spend some of my PT to go into detail this time:
Be prepared does not mean to constantly look for trouble, but if you feel/see/guess some, your arms should be in pull/push mode (respectively) - don't move it yet, just get ready, if "things develope" - do it, if not - keep going....
It really is more of a mental exercise than a physical.....
IF "things keep developing" DON'T make HUGE inputs! Things generally just "develop faster and worse"
PULL back means "apply back PRESSURE" - not necessarily hauling the cyclic into your stomach!
PUSH down means "apply down PRESSURE"- not necessarily punch a hole in the floor!
Now - this doesn't mean either to just freeze the controls!
If you NEED a large cyclic input, by all means do it! Just don't over-react!
The idea is if things settle back to normal, that you hardly felt that "you where getting ready" - it only takes a few sessions and this becomes automatic, like a real auto (if you ever need one)....
So, ifresh, first lesson on the PROFESSIONAL PILOT RUMOUR NETWORK:
Don't worry too much specifically about Engine out warning signs, but be GENERALLY prepared to use the parachute (autorotation).
It should NOT matter what caused the need for the reaction - for all it counts, if you ever break the belts on your R22, you will NOT loose the engine (right away - until it stops from over-speeding), but you are still in the EXACT same dire need for correct reaction - Loss of power to your Rotor....
Forget about specifically the engine - teach yourself to react (at least mentally) to ANY&EVERYTHING!
"If the engine fails in an R22, the pilot has to react instantaneously to lower the collective in order to avoid complete rotor stall." - by ifresh
YES - you want to REACT instantaneously, but you do NOT need the collective down this instant.
To make the point (Energy Mangement) I used to demo to my students, rolling off the throttle and keeping the collective up to the count of 3 - ....without getting the LOW-RPM warning on!
(A decently "pronounced" cyclic flare will do that just fine - also gives you all the time to lower the collective smoothly and in no real hurry, but remember to get it down ALL the way - initially)
Robinsons don't die, just because you hear the low-rpm warning horn!
It only tells you that your rpm is not where it should be for normal flight - check it!
The "1.4 or so second to rotorstall..." thing on the Robinsons is - IF you want to maintain speed and altitude, then - and ONLY then the rotor inertia will be wasted below rotorstall in the one second.
Maybe you get a second more in most other helos before the same happens...
That's why you should condition yourself to "Pull back, Push down" - smart guy mode (not chicken mode)
(...or alternatively SSEECB mode - if you are a member...)
This way you instantly gain all the time needed to establish a proper autorotation....., no matter if it was the engine, trans, belts, a bug or ..... that started the whole trouble.
Engine stops dead "Pull back, Push down"
Engine coughs "Pb,Pd"
Magneto/Sparkplug roughs the run "Pb,Pd"
Bug commits suicide on your windshield "Pb, Pd" (those BIG bugs give you quite a scare when they expire with a bang on the windshield)
So to end the soap - the guy I mentioned above....:
I did a AS350B3 transition (type rating) with him, and as it seems to be comon these days in our industry, was a little rusty on his autos.
Over 2 sessions I got him where I needed him on the NORMAL autos.
You always can tell, that people are NOT on top with emergency maneuvers when they keep Rrpm at the very top of the green (B3 specific now) instead near the center of the green. Of course this causes more stress at the bottom, ....but we fixed it.
Now to emphasize that there is no need to fear the lower green, I explained what the lower YELLOW arc is for (normally I get a blank stare, when I question a trainee for the reason of the lower YELLOW arc....)
After explaining I went ahead and demo-ed a "streched" auto:
4000 feet, enter normal auto, lower nose, speed up to 90 kts, rpm to lower half of the YELLOW!
Incredible, the thing still flys! And now gets some serious glide distance too - WOW!
1000-800 feet, PULL back (slowly) and PUSH down (easy) and you are back to 70 kts and the middle of the green on rpm (POH say 65 kts, but 70 works WAY better - terminate with a normal full touch down!
Great, isn't it!
Next thing I hear - the guy pulls rpm into the lower YELLOW on his check ride, nearly ALL THE WAY DOWN!
(He got away with it - thanks B3!! But he also told the examiner, that 3top showed him how to do this....)
Moral? Obviously, it takes some serious work to get the point across the RIGHT WAY - sometimes!
So, after I now expended some Serious amount of my PRECIOUS TIME to make a point, I hope all you 1/2 baked wussies, complaining about seriously Professional people on this Rumour NEtwork, get the point THIS Seriously Selfish, Egoistic and Elitist Cab Driver is trying to make!
Now - there is ONE thing I need to complain about TC: WTF do you mean with Bloody Robinson?? Just because you never were allowed to touch one, does not mean they are bad machines!
Rpm range on these rigs are 2nd to none!
I can still do a pedal turn in a R44 when a 206 already quit flying! .... not even getting into the TR-issues of the old horse....
Actually in their size class - they are about the BEST you can get!
And if the R44 is any indication for the R66, it will kill the market for the EC120 and all the other small turbines in short order!
Ask if you need more! 'cause even if you are a member of this SSEECD club
(Seriously Selfish Egoistic Elitist Cab Driver CLUB) - MY time is still PRECIOUS!
Enough....
Fly safe, all - and don't take this post too serious!
...and yeah, I did not have anything else to do today, to waiste my PT on!
3top
PS: Aerobat - "That's what an engine failure sounds like! That may be all the warning you get!"
Love that one! .... gonna steal it!
You're doing fine, Mate!!
TO all,
TC is right on the spot - thinks me....
So far we are lucky that this forum has mods and so far they are VERY lenient.
I don't want to see this forum go the way a certain Un-moded one went....
Personally I don't mind questions like this one, but from experience gleaned from other forums, most newbees DON'T even read up on the forum rules/suggestions, DON'T bother to do a search - admitted, the search function in about all forums suc** big time, but a "restricted/defined" search on Google generally finds you plenty to read about your topic.
E.g. Google "Engine failure warning signs, Pprune" and everything about the topic on Pprune will show first.....
We all started sometime at ZERO and I for one learned heaps on here (Pprune), but generally I did my homework first.
NOT to say ifresh didn't do it - but we are already discussing if it makes sense to give advice if personal experience/training level is not yet ready to digest the info or worse is taken in the wrong context.
Granted, for those that are just out of helo-kindergarten and on their way to grad-school, it may sound a little arrogant/elitist/egoistic
- BUT just recently I had another episode of "taking information the wrong way", and that from a 5k+ hrs pilot that has already some real and interesting work experience. (see below)
So, I for one, DO WANT to know WHERE the chap is on his EXPERIENCE LEVEL, before I tell him MY experiences!!
We heard quite a few interesting episodes here, but so far I only remember one partially correct answer/guideline/tip from Aerobot (including myself...):
"So live with your left arm spring-loaded: anytime it does something the least bit strange - get the collective down. If you were just being an old woman you can always bring the power back in." - by Aerobot
However I only agree partially.
Over the years, I learned, that even MORE important than the initial collective down, is the initial cylic BACK. (If you need more details, ask! Remember - my time is PRECIOUS
)THEN, although I get what Aerobot says, someone like ifresh might interpret "spring loaded" as "smack it to the floor when the engine quits!"
Well, thanks, but NO!
"Lower the collective but smoothly" or you might find yourself all over the place! Again, ask for more ....
Finally, "old woman" are often tougher than the hardest Rambo out there!
Sounds like "chicken" to me - when this is EXACTLY what you should be taught in Flightschool!
Always looking out for an emergency landing place is theory at best:
You just don't fly looking for ELSs all the time, and even if you just overflew a pefect one, when the "need for it arises" - hopefully you still remember you have it right on your 6.
However, often the ELS does not matter anymore if the helo never gets a chance to autorotate.
So, my advice is (and I do teach that - ....just induce some abnormal reactions now and then -
), no matter WHAT the unusual "thing" is:Rough engine, turbulence, cyclic wiggle, vibration, bug on the windshield....
Be prepared to pull back and push down!
This has to become automatic (that's why I train it with students).
Now to avoid misunderstandings, I will spend some of my PT to go into detail this time:
Be prepared does not mean to constantly look for trouble, but if you feel/see/guess some, your arms should be in pull/push mode (respectively) - don't move it yet, just get ready, if "things develope" - do it, if not - keep going....
It really is more of a mental exercise than a physical.....
IF "things keep developing" DON'T make HUGE inputs! Things generally just "develop faster and worse"
PULL back means "apply back PRESSURE" - not necessarily hauling the cyclic into your stomach!
PUSH down means "apply down PRESSURE"- not necessarily punch a hole in the floor!
Now - this doesn't mean either to just freeze the controls!
If you NEED a large cyclic input, by all means do it! Just don't over-react!
The idea is if things settle back to normal, that you hardly felt that "you where getting ready" - it only takes a few sessions and this becomes automatic, like a real auto (if you ever need one)....
So, ifresh, first lesson on the PROFESSIONAL PILOT RUMOUR NETWORK:
Don't worry too much specifically about Engine out warning signs, but be GENERALLY prepared to use the parachute (autorotation).
It should NOT matter what caused the need for the reaction - for all it counts, if you ever break the belts on your R22, you will NOT loose the engine (right away - until it stops from over-speeding
), but you are still in the EXACT same dire need for correct reaction - Loss of power to your Rotor....Forget about specifically the engine - teach yourself to react (at least mentally) to ANY&EVERYTHING!
"If the engine fails in an R22, the pilot has to react instantaneously to lower the collective in order to avoid complete rotor stall." - by ifresh
YES - you want to REACT instantaneously, but you do NOT need the collective down this instant.
To make the point (Energy Mangement) I used to demo to my students, rolling off the throttle and keeping the collective up to the count of 3 - ....without getting the LOW-RPM warning on!
(A decently "pronounced" cyclic flare will do that just fine - also gives you all the time to lower the collective smoothly and in no real hurry, but remember to get it down ALL the way - initially)
Robinsons don't die, just because you hear the low-rpm warning horn!
It only tells you that your rpm is not where it should be for normal flight - check it!
The "1.4 or so second to rotorstall..." thing on the Robinsons is - IF you want to maintain speed and altitude, then - and ONLY then the rotor inertia will be wasted below rotorstall in the one second.
Maybe you get a second more in most other helos before the same happens...
That's why you should condition yourself to "Pull back, Push down" - smart guy mode (not chicken mode)
(...or alternatively SSEECB mode - if you are a member...)
This way you instantly gain all the time needed to establish a proper autorotation....., no matter if it was the engine, trans, belts, a bug or ..... that started the whole trouble.
Engine stops dead "Pull back, Push down"
Engine coughs "Pb,Pd"
Magneto/Sparkplug roughs the run "Pb,Pd"
Bug commits suicide on your windshield "Pb, Pd" (those BIG bugs give you quite a scare when they expire with a bang on the windshield)
So to end the soap - the guy I mentioned above....:
I did a AS350B3 transition (type rating) with him, and as it seems to be comon these days in our industry, was a little rusty on his autos.
Over 2 sessions I got him where I needed him on the NORMAL autos.
You always can tell, that people are NOT on top with emergency maneuvers when they keep Rrpm at the very top of the green (B3 specific now) instead near the center of the green. Of course this causes more stress at the bottom, ....but we fixed it.
Now to emphasize that there is no need to fear the lower green, I explained what the lower YELLOW arc is for (normally I get a blank stare, when I question a trainee for the reason of the lower YELLOW arc....)
After explaining I went ahead and demo-ed a "streched" auto:
4000 feet, enter normal auto, lower nose, speed up to 90 kts, rpm to lower half of the YELLOW!
Incredible, the thing still flys! And now gets some serious glide distance too - WOW!
1000-800 feet, PULL back (slowly) and PUSH down (easy) and you are back to 70 kts and the middle of the green on rpm (POH say 65 kts, but 70 works WAY better - terminate with a normal full touch down!
Great, isn't it!
Next thing I hear - the guy pulls rpm into the lower YELLOW on his check ride, nearly ALL THE WAY DOWN!
(He got away with it - thanks B3!! But he also told the examiner, that 3top showed him how to do this....)
Moral? Obviously, it takes some serious work to get the point across the RIGHT WAY - sometimes!
So, after I now expended some Serious amount of my PRECIOUS TIME to make a point, I hope all you 1/2 baked wussies, complaining about seriously Professional people on this Rumour NEtwork, get the point THIS Seriously Selfish, Egoistic and Elitist Cab Driver is trying to make!
Now - there is ONE thing I need to complain about TC: WTF do you mean with Bloody Robinson?? Just because you never were allowed to touch one, does not mean they are bad machines!
Rpm range on these rigs are 2nd to none!
I can still do a pedal turn in a R44 when a 206 already quit flying! .... not even getting into the TR-issues of the old horse....
Actually in their size class - they are about the BEST you can get!
And if the R44 is any indication for the R66, it will kill the market for the EC120 and all the other small turbines in short order!
Ask if you need more! 'cause even if you are a member of this SSEECD club
(Seriously Selfish Egoistic Elitist Cab Driver CLUB
) - MY time is still PRECIOUS! Enough....
Fly safe, all - and don't take this post too serious!
...and yeah, I did not have anything else to do today, to waiste my PT on!
3top
PS: Aerobat - "That's what an engine failure sounds like! That may be all the warning you get!"
Love that one! .... gonna steal it!
Second time I was with the boss in the R22 in the circuit and asked him if he'd ever had any total loss of power and he leaned over and pulled the mixture out. Not much warning there either, again at about 700 feet.
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Good sunny Sunday morning,
Hey TC....Admirable yes OK, well put,....
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
However the Victor title is easy to attach when answers are couched in harsh words.
Hey TC....Admirable yes OK, well put,....
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
However the Victor title is easy to attach when answers are couched in harsh words.
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Ifresh, I had an experience several years ago with an R22 that I hired to pick up my pals son, as a birthday treat.
My usual actions on SFH was to check the Tech Logs to see who had previously been out, and what if anything was to report about the Heli, seemed the last one out was a young pupil pilot (H) and a reasonable proficient ( but not yet fully qualified Fi) the tech log was written up seemed OK and no mention of any problems.
I went out and did my walkround,crawl under, climb on and checked everything I could see touch and fondle(in machinary terms ) fueled up and went through the start up proceedure, evrything seemed to be A1 and OK to go, so after permission I lifted and hover taxied to take of into wind, doing that meant I was going to be flying towards the almost full tide, almost at its full height and depth, cleared to go by the tower I proceeded to do what most pilots do and that was to start the bird going and increasing power to attain t/lift, just at the point were lift was aquired I started to feel a stiffness in the stick, at this point I was clearing the perim at about 200ft with the wind and speed lifting me rapidly higher, I requested an immediate return to land , this was granted, what happened next was a total shock to me for I found I could not turn left, and the stick was starting to violently shake to the point that I found I could not risk lifting my thumb to use the radio button, I could not turn sharpe right for two reasons the R22 wouldnt respond but I would have been over private dwellings and public areas, I considered landing in the sea but due to the wind I could see some huge waves and quickly lost the want to land in the water, the tower was aware of my predicament and cleared the airspace for me to try any way back, after a very careful and "green area " flight I managed by turning right only to get back to the field to use the vast expanse of outfield and the service there on offer to bring this stricken R22 back down with as much smoothness as I could muster, at this time I can say to you I was exhausted, the stick had been occilating so much and so fast that I was unable to feel my hands or fingers I had two hands on the stick to use the radio button to inform the Twr of my plans and told them I would not speke again until I was down, they were brilliant they kept telling me they were watching me and could see exatly where I was in relation to the field,. to cut a long and boring story short, I found that as I came down to the point of being just 20/30 ft from the grass area I had picked and below T/lift speed the violent occilations ceased, so down I sank and stopped the engine.
Being an ex farmer and steel worker I consider myslef pretty strong, but that occilation on the stick could not be controlled by my bulk fighting to control it.
All this was caused because said earlier trainee Fi, had allowed his student pilot to overspeed by a massif amount I was eventuall told it was about 125/130% whilst showing said pupil what a full EOL would feel like, but the FI never owned up or entered this fact into the Tech log, for if he had I would not have flown that Heli.
However I started then to examine my own ways of doing my preflight and asked many very experienced pilots and engineers what I could have done to find that problem which was badly stretched main rotor bearinds and or housings due to the massif O/speed, their answers were, I would not have seen anything on a pre-flight check, and the only way was to rely on honesty of previous Fi's or pilots.
Since that day I have not flown any Robinson R22's simply because if I had used my massif bulk and strength to stop the occilation something else more serious would have broken.
I am sorry for such a long winded story, but you must rely on your ability to do the pre-flight as well as total and absolute honesty of the previous flyers, Many people up here in this part of Lancashire know who I blame for the diabolical record keeping of that heli.
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfrpilot Pb
My usual actions on SFH was to check the Tech Logs to see who had previously been out, and what if anything was to report about the Heli, seemed the last one out was a young pupil pilot (H) and a reasonable proficient ( but not yet fully qualified Fi) the tech log was written up seemed OK and no mention of any problems.
I went out and did my walkround,crawl under, climb on and checked everything I could see touch and fondle(in machinary terms ) fueled up and went through the start up proceedure, evrything seemed to be A1 and OK to go, so after permission I lifted and hover taxied to take of into wind, doing that meant I was going to be flying towards the almost full tide, almost at its full height and depth, cleared to go by the tower I proceeded to do what most pilots do and that was to start the bird going and increasing power to attain t/lift, just at the point were lift was aquired I started to feel a stiffness in the stick, at this point I was clearing the perim at about 200ft with the wind and speed lifting me rapidly higher, I requested an immediate return to land , this was granted, what happened next was a total shock to me for I found I could not turn left, and the stick was starting to violently shake to the point that I found I could not risk lifting my thumb to use the radio button, I could not turn sharpe right for two reasons the R22 wouldnt respond but I would have been over private dwellings and public areas, I considered landing in the sea but due to the wind I could see some huge waves and quickly lost the want to land in the water, the tower was aware of my predicament and cleared the airspace for me to try any way back, after a very careful and "green area " flight I managed by turning right only to get back to the field to use the vast expanse of outfield and the service there on offer to bring this stricken R22 back down with as much smoothness as I could muster, at this time I can say to you I was exhausted, the stick had been occilating so much and so fast that I was unable to feel my hands or fingers I had two hands on the stick to use the radio button to inform the Twr of my plans and told them I would not speke again until I was down, they were brilliant they kept telling me they were watching me and could see exatly where I was in relation to the field,. to cut a long and boring story short, I found that as I came down to the point of being just 20/30 ft from the grass area I had picked and below T/lift speed the violent occilations ceased, so down I sank and stopped the engine.
Being an ex farmer and steel worker I consider myslef pretty strong, but that occilation on the stick could not be controlled by my bulk fighting to control it.
All this was caused because said earlier trainee Fi, had allowed his student pilot to overspeed by a massif amount I was eventuall told it was about 125/130% whilst showing said pupil what a full EOL would feel like, but the FI never owned up or entered this fact into the Tech log, for if he had I would not have flown that Heli.
However I started then to examine my own ways of doing my preflight and asked many very experienced pilots and engineers what I could have done to find that problem which was badly stretched main rotor bearinds and or housings due to the massif O/speed, their answers were, I would not have seen anything on a pre-flight check, and the only way was to rely on honesty of previous Fi's or pilots.
Since that day I have not flown any Robinson R22's simply because if I had used my massif bulk and strength to stop the occilation something else more serious would have broken.
I am sorry for such a long winded story, but you must rely on your ability to do the pre-flight as well as total and absolute honesty of the previous flyers, Many people up here in this part of Lancashire know who I blame for the diabolical record keeping of that heli.
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfrpilot Pb
Good post Peter, RB, and not in the least boring.
For all the intrusive officialdom in aviation regulations and certification standards, you'd wonder how hard and expensive it would be to have mandated recording devices that would alert for a few simple things like overspeeds.
For all the intrusive officialdom in aviation regulations and certification standards, you'd wonder how hard and expensive it would be to have mandated recording devices that would alert for a few simple things like overspeeds.
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I remember being told that there are 2 preflight tell tales to look for indicating an overspeed in flight/auto, one is on the blade itself, the ribbed section near the root, following a serious overspeed you may get slight stretching of the blade and this could show as the blade paint actually showing cracks due to the expansion (apparently the area near the root is most common). And that if the bearings have suffered brinelling then the collective may feel notchy/rough when doing your 'full and free' checks... not saying either will always be present, but in extreme cases they may be, and certainly if either signs are present I would get an engineering opinion before flying.
I know this has been covered in another thread, but don't train with or rent a helicopter from anywhere who's integrity and honesty you cannot trust.
It sound like a traumatic event to have happened to Peter-RB, but I wouldn't blame it on the type. There are plenty of occurrences of people over temp/torque 206's etc that are not immediately noticeable that lead to problems down the line etc. Trusting your provider is the main starting point. Ideally somewhere with a no-blame culture so people are not scared to admit an accidental mistake...
I know this has been covered in another thread, but don't train with or rent a helicopter from anywhere who's integrity and honesty you cannot trust.
It sound like a traumatic event to have happened to Peter-RB, but I wouldn't blame it on the type. There are plenty of occurrences of people over temp/torque 206's etc that are not immediately noticeable that lead to problems down the line etc. Trusting your provider is the main starting point. Ideally somewhere with a no-blame culture so people are not scared to admit an accidental mistake...
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Peter-RB,
"to cut a long and boring story short" ...... what you call boring!
Don't want to know what you call interesting then!!
From experience (....or whatever you call it, if you get away with doing stupid things) - Robinsons are extremly hard to kill, VERY tough aircraft.
So, no worries, find a different place to rent and stay in it!
Don't have the book available right now, but 125/130% should call for new blades at a minimum, if not new spindels and head, too...
Now, one item I REALLY like on Eurocopters is the "Flightreport/Failure/Overlimit"-feature in their VEMDs!!
At least for the last 31 flights you can review the aircraft-generated flightreports, any failures detected and overlimits are stored until cleared by maintenance (IIUC - some can only be cleared by Eurocopter Service Centers).
As a pilot you have full acces to this data, just by going into the VEMD before you take over the helo. Also, this encourages pilots to "volunteer" any "F*** Up" they might have produced.
Unfortunately there are people out there that rather would cover up and let someone else find out - I couldn't live with myself, if I find out that I caused someone elses death or injury, because I was a coward, not reporting my mistakes!
(I had a interesting "episode" - not boring at all to me! ...in a 206, that I blame on a another driver [can't call that guy a pilot...], causing - "instant engine failures, but keep making noises (aweful ones!) until they are certainly dead!" - this one did all the way down....)
The chap who caused "your episode", hopefully burned himself in the industry - should be a lesson to others!
Now, implementing a mandatory reporting/recording device is only going to happen if the authorities make it happen.
Changing ANYTHING on existing airframe-designs costs huge money to he manufacturer - certification/re-certification/STC.
They may do it on a newly developed airframe (does the R66 have such a system??), but it will need some serious arm-twisting to have this implemented on existing designs and even worse to re-equip on existing airframes.....
(Though technically it is "chickens***" to do - ALL the necessary sensors are already in place - just need to collect the data and compare to set parameters)
3top
"to cut a long and boring story short" ...... what you call boring!
Don't want to know what you call interesting then!!
From experience (....or whatever you call it, if you get away with doing stupid things) - Robinsons are extremly hard to kill, VERY tough aircraft.
So, no worries, find a different place to rent and stay in it!
Don't have the book available right now, but 125/130% should call for new blades at a minimum, if not new spindels and head, too...
Now, one item I REALLY like on Eurocopters is the "Flightreport/Failure/Overlimit"-feature in their VEMDs!!
At least for the last 31 flights you can review the aircraft-generated flightreports, any failures detected and overlimits are stored until cleared by maintenance (IIUC - some can only be cleared by Eurocopter Service Centers).
As a pilot you have full acces to this data, just by going into the VEMD before you take over the helo. Also, this encourages pilots to "volunteer" any "F*** Up" they might have produced.
Unfortunately there are people out there that rather would cover up and let someone else find out - I couldn't live with myself, if I find out that I caused someone elses death or injury, because I was a coward, not reporting my mistakes!
(I had a interesting "episode" - not boring at all to me!
...in a 206, that I blame on a another driver [can't call that guy a pilot...], causing - "instant engine failures, but keep making noises (aweful ones!) until they are certainly dead!" - this one did all the way down....)The chap who caused "your episode", hopefully burned himself in the industry - should be a lesson to others!
Now, implementing a mandatory reporting/recording device is only going to happen if the authorities make it happen.
Changing ANYTHING on existing airframe-designs costs huge money to he manufacturer - certification/re-certification/STC.
They may do it on a newly developed airframe (does the R66 have such a system??), but it will need some serious arm-twisting to have this implemented on existing designs and even worse to re-equip on existing airframes.....
(Though technically it is "chickens***" to do - ALL the necessary sensors are already in place - just need to collect the data and compare to set parameters)
3top
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3T,
I mentioned Boring, for when you are explaining things and how they develop, most people get a sort of Glazed expression, my incident didnt give me any time to be bored, in fact most of the time I was wondering how I could leave some message for my wife and five children, that very short and to be honest terrifying flight changed my appreciation of simple things..like "Doing the Dishes"
Peter R-B
VfrpilotPB
I mentioned Boring, for when you are explaining things and how they develop, most people get a sort of Glazed expression, my incident didnt give me any time to be bored, in fact most of the time I was wondering how I could leave some message for my wife and five children, that very short and to be honest terrifying flight changed my appreciation of simple things..like "Doing the Dishes"
Peter R-B
VfrpilotPB
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R22 HP vs R22 Beta
Hi 
what is the difference between the R22 HP and the R22 Beta?
What are the disadvantages and advantages?
If you were to buy one, what would you chose?
what is the difference between the R22 HP and the R22 Beta?
What are the disadvantages and advantages?
If you were to buy one, what would you chose?
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IIRC, the HP doesn't have an aux fuel tank, so has less max endurance. It also has different CofG, loading numbers, although the max all-up will be the same. Whether you buy one or the other really depends on what you want out of your aircraft, and what you plan to do with it.
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The Max AUW is not the same. 1300lbs in the HP; 1370lbs in the Beta (and Beta 2)
Pandalet is correct about the absence of the aux fuel tank on the HP.
Unless you're lightweight or only ever planning to fly solo, the payload in the HP is very limiting. This lack of utility may well be reflected in the purchase price.
FoM
Pandalet is correct about the absence of the aux fuel tank on the HP.
Unless you're lightweight or only ever planning to fly solo, the payload in the HP is very limiting. This lack of utility may well be reflected in the purchase price.
FoM
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The HP is underpowered (even though the HP stands for High Powered!) and the majority on the market are either time expired or have had the rebuild and remain unsold, so either way they are going to cost quite a bit !
I would take the Beta any day, the Alpha and HP as far as I'm concered have too many problems to make them economical to operate.
I would take the Beta any day, the Alpha and HP as far as I'm concered have too many problems to make them economical to operate.
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HP versus BETA
R22 HP vs R22 Beta
Hi
what is the difference between the R22 HP and the R22 Beta?
What are the disadvantages and advantages?
If you were to buy one, what would you chose?
Hi
what is the difference between the R22 HP and the R22 Beta?
What are the disadvantages and advantages?
If you were to buy one, what would you chose?
My recollection of the major differences (i.e. when they appeared):
Standard: 150 HP - very much a dog but could run on 80/87 fuel. Battery was in the nose, inside the instrument panel.
HP: High compression heads to bring the horsepower up to 160, but needed 100 octane fuel. Battery was typically under the left seat. Like the Standard, 1300 max gross weight.
Alpha: Moved the battery to the current engine compartment location, canted the tailboom up to the present angle. Added the auxiliary fuel tank, and thus upped the max gross weight to 1370 to account for the weight of the tank and fuel.
Beta: I don't remember if the rotor brake appeared here, or whether it was available on the alpha. The first governor (yuck) showed up on the Beta (the one that moved the collective - sounded like a good idea at the time), but they all have governors now so that's not a difference today. 5 minute takeoff rating (required a larger oil cooler). Larger instrument panels, better instrument panel layout.
Beta II: O360 for more horsepower, redesigned TR gearbox.
All from memory so I probably made some mistakes and forgot some differences, but it's mostly correct.
(787-1): The HP is underpowered (even though the HP stands for High Powered!) and the majority on the market are either time expired or have had the rebuild and remain unsold, so either way they are going to cost quite a bit !
I would take the Beta any day, the Alpha and HP as far as I'm concered have too many problems to make them economical to operate.
I would take the Beta any day, the Alpha and HP as far as I'm concered have too many problems to make them economical to operate.
An HP will perform just as well as a Beta with one exception - the Beta has the 5 minute takeoff rating, while the HP does not. Don't be fooled by the 70 pound increase in gross weight of the Alpha and Beta. That's a legal limit that was raised (to account for the weight of the aux fuel tank and it's contents). While the legal limit is raised, there is no more engine power in the Beta-1 than the HP (160 in both cases, derated to a max continuous 124HP.). The Beta-1 does give you a 5 minute takeoff rating, but again, this is mostly a legality. While it has a larger oil cooler, using that extra inch of manifold pressure is no different than pulling an extra inch on an HP, except that you are legal to do that on the Beta, but not on the HP (quibbling perhaps, but the point is that if you fly high/hot, you'll hit the wide open throttle at the same point on the two machines. It's only the LEGAL definition of power that is different (and, I admit that is an advantage because I personally would not exceed the MCP rating of the HP - I pay attention to the limits, even if they seem arbitrary).
The resale on the HP is probably considerably lower, so you might get a deal on purchase, but the overhaul kit is going to cost the same, so you probably lose when you sell it. If you play your cards right, you can probably save some money by going with an older aircraft.
HP Advantages: It sure is nice preflighting without that aux tank installed! Also, with the battery up front the CG is actually better, so you have a more level takeoff. That's the reason the tail boom was canted up - to account for the nose up hover attitude when the batter was moved to the engine compartment. When I was first instructing, we soloed people in the HP because the level lift off was easier.
Beta Advantage: Better instrument panel layout, rotor brake, aux tank if you need it, 5 minute takeoff rating. Extra 1.5 hours of fuel if you fill the aux tank.
If I could afford a Beta, that's what I would buy, but if I couldn't afford a Beta I'd try to find a nice HP that needed some TLC. They're good aircraft, just keep in mind that any older helicopter is probably going to require more maintenance.
If I didn't fly at sea level, I'd go with a Beta-II.
Paul