Family helicopter.
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Bravo73 is correct. Expect to use two seats less than the hi-capacity version of the machine has with good utility. So, expect to be able to go five-up in an AS350 or three-up in a B206 with the requisite amount of fuel and baggage.
i think he means you can go all up 4 in a 350 and 3 in a 206 if you want to have plenty fuel and some luggage. ( 350 is 6 place in uk 7 place elsewhere)
In fact the 350 BA, b2 and b3 have bags of power and will almost certainly manage a full 6 up incl kids , some luggage and plenty of fuel.
In fact the 350 BA, b2 and b3 have bags of power and will almost certainly manage a full 6 up incl kids , some luggage and plenty of fuel.
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"BEST" family helicopter in the world
Hi Rotormotor, I flew my AS350B for 4 years as a family vehicle, wife, 2 kids, luggage and full fuel, its the most wonderful ship there is. If you can still find one, they are hard to come by and pricey, especially as you go up to B2. We live at altitude (5500ft AMSL) and the EC120 is no good here, nice to look at, but wont lift the skin off a rice pudding on a hot day with more than 4 souls on board. At the coast its OK. Jetranger similarly limited. Longranger and 407 are big guns for family cars, but if budget is not a problem go for it. I still think the Squirrel is tops.
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Hi everybody,
Helonorth: Thanks and another vote for the 407, I could be leaning...?
Bravo73: Hmmm? After chatting with the wife and various sprogs they seem to agree with this; it appears there may be 'It's your turn to go backwards' kind of arguments. Another for the As350.
MSPaviation: I've 'got' this now, and this is the crux of what I didn't understand at the beginning.
nigelh: Another vote for the As350! Thanks for that, and the power reference guide.
rockpecker: Thanks for taking the time. Are you up in the Rockies or something like that? Another vote for the As350, but you seem to reckon that the 407 is more expensive to run? But that's what the 407 chaps say about the As350 too?
So it seems that I've narrowed it down to the Bell 407 and the As350, and there's 45 350's on the Uk register (44 with absent friends) and just five 407's -that I could see- so more people and organisations have plumped for the As350.
Yet I keep seeing reference to the poor support of Eurocopter, and indeed have read a few threads on this here. But in fairness I have also read of the Agusta/Bell parts non-conformance thing too.
I would ask then, all those of you who have recommended the As350, what is your experience of Eurocopter's support? I don't intend to bash them, I sincerely want to know. PM me if you wish. As a potential private owner, the prospect of an expensive missed summer doesn't appeal much.
In closing for now; it would seem to me that the As350 is the best 'family' oriented choice, but the Bell 407 is the best supported and, perhaps crucially, more reliable?
Thanks everybody for your continued support and time taken, it is much appreciated.
Rotormotor.
Helonorth: Thanks and another vote for the 407, I could be leaning...?
Bravo73: Hmmm? After chatting with the wife and various sprogs they seem to agree with this; it appears there may be 'It's your turn to go backwards' kind of arguments. Another for the As350.
MSPaviation: I've 'got' this now, and this is the crux of what I didn't understand at the beginning.
nigelh: Another vote for the As350! Thanks for that, and the power reference guide.
rockpecker: Thanks for taking the time. Are you up in the Rockies or something like that? Another vote for the As350, but you seem to reckon that the 407 is more expensive to run? But that's what the 407 chaps say about the As350 too?
So it seems that I've narrowed it down to the Bell 407 and the As350, and there's 45 350's on the Uk register (44 with absent friends) and just five 407's -that I could see- so more people and organisations have plumped for the As350.
Yet I keep seeing reference to the poor support of Eurocopter, and indeed have read a few threads on this here. But in fairness I have also read of the Agusta/Bell parts non-conformance thing too.
I would ask then, all those of you who have recommended the As350, what is your experience of Eurocopter's support? I don't intend to bash them, I sincerely want to know. PM me if you wish. As a potential private owner, the prospect of an expensive missed summer doesn't appeal much.
In closing for now; it would seem to me that the As350 is the best 'family' oriented choice, but the Bell 407 is the best supported and, perhaps crucially, more reliable?
Thanks everybody for your continued support and time taken, it is much appreciated.
Rotormotor.
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MSP aviation: What are you talking about?
By hi-capacity, I meant the most dense seating arrangement available. Some AS350s have 7.
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Ouch, 119 expensive but nice...and not sure about any UK aircraft though.
Rotormotor - careful you don't muddle the ill-fated Agusta/Bell joint venture with pure Bell - quite different
Rotormotor - careful you don't muddle the ill-fated Agusta/Bell joint venture with pure Bell - quite different
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I don't know if I would go as far to say the 407 is more reliable, have had more problems with little things going wrong while flying them than I have in squirrels, but I am sure there will be someone with an opposite opinion.
If you intend to do night flight, the gauges in the 407 will not impress you at all, and I have had quite a few problems with gauges or senders, and the LCD gauges are not cheap!
If you have snow deflectors on the 407, and you want the heater on, (which go hand in hand) It seems to suck in exhaust smell into the cabin when you are on the ground.
Grease every where - as it has expensive pitch bearings that need grease and then it gets tossed every where.
These are not big deals, but just little things that bug me about the 407, really the only good thing I can say about it, is that it is better for long lining out of than the squirrel.
From any engineers I have spoke to about it, the squirrel is a lot easier to work on than bell, I think it was designed for engineers really.
I don't know how many hours you think you would do a year, but as a private ship I'm not sure if you would have to many maintenance issues if not doing 100 hours a month?
To cap off
I personally have had more maintenance issues with the 407 than squirrel in general.
I enjoy flying the 407 with a line on, but if I had to use a heli for more passenger/utility/private type work I would choose the squirrel (if I had the choice).
Oh, and from what I have seen, the 407 is in just as much demand as the squirrel at the mo, so both are demanding hi prices.
my 20c worth
If you intend to do night flight, the gauges in the 407 will not impress you at all, and I have had quite a few problems with gauges or senders, and the LCD gauges are not cheap!
If you have snow deflectors on the 407, and you want the heater on, (which go hand in hand) It seems to suck in exhaust smell into the cabin when you are on the ground.
Grease every where - as it has expensive pitch bearings that need grease and then it gets tossed every where.
These are not big deals, but just little things that bug me about the 407, really the only good thing I can say about it, is that it is better for long lining out of than the squirrel.
From any engineers I have spoke to about it, the squirrel is a lot easier to work on than bell, I think it was designed for engineers really.
I don't know how many hours you think you would do a year, but as a private ship I'm not sure if you would have to many maintenance issues if not doing 100 hours a month?
To cap off
I personally have had more maintenance issues with the 407 than squirrel in general.
I enjoy flying the 407 with a line on, but if I had to use a heli for more passenger/utility/private type work I would choose the squirrel (if I had the choice).
Oh, and from what I have seen, the 407 is in just as much demand as the squirrel at the mo, so both are demanding hi prices.
my 20c worth
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I did a aircraft acquisition course which I found useful for selecting the correct aircraft type on the manner in which it is to be used. Value of an aircraft is not just about cost, but suitability too (although your budget will certain figure into the equation). The course also involved analysing cost of the aircraft over its entire life (as well as the DOCs).
Investing in this sort of education is certainly worthwhile - even if it is for a one off personal purchase. Of course, there are people that you can pay to make these decisions for you if you haven't got the time.
I know its some way off, but if you can wait I suggest attending Heli-Expo in Feb and getting on some courses to learn more about the process. It won't replace real experience, which is what many people in this forum have to offer, but it levels the playing field somewhat. It can give more confidence when going through the actual acquisition bit.
Having said all that, going from the info you have alluded to, I would err towards the AS350, but I also really like the B407 (if you don't need ample baggage space - maybe all your stuff we already be at your destination, such as a second home or whatever).
Good luck,
FFF
Investing in this sort of education is certainly worthwhile - even if it is for a one off personal purchase. Of course, there are people that you can pay to make these decisions for you if you haven't got the time.
I know its some way off, but if you can wait I suggest attending Heli-Expo in Feb and getting on some courses to learn more about the process. It won't replace real experience, which is what many people in this forum have to offer, but it levels the playing field somewhat. It can give more confidence when going through the actual acquisition bit.
Having said all that, going from the info you have alluded to, I would err towards the AS350, but I also really like the B407 (if you don't need ample baggage space - maybe all your stuff we already be at your destination, such as a second home or whatever).
Good luck,
FFF
Stop playing with little machines and think big. Go for a bus of helicopters, one the whole family, friends and relatives can fly in as well. How about something like an S61, AS332L or 214ST. 18 plus seats plenty of room, air stair door, possably a bog or bar servise.
Go on, THINK BIG.
Go on, THINK BIG.
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Rotormotor,
My experience with the AS350 has been excellent regarding the service from Eurocopter. The problem comes when you start dealing with Turbomeca. Don't get me wrong- I love the engine....just hate the customer service. Might be a option to buy a BA or B2 and put the Honeywell engine in when the time is right
My experience with the AS350 has been excellent regarding the service from Eurocopter. The problem comes when you start dealing with Turbomeca. Don't get me wrong- I love the engine....just hate the customer service. Might be a option to buy a BA or B2 and put the Honeywell engine in when the time is right
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Hi everybody! Thanks again for the replies and PM's
gov1: never really considered the A119, too big and heavy I think. Also, wasn't the only one in the UK a rally support vehicle?
docstone: Hello again; I won't confuse the two, I just mentioned it in a sense of fair play.
skidbiter2: Great post, you obviously have a lot of experience. I haven't quite got to night flying yet, but I'd like to try and master it at some stage. I'd love to do 100 hours a month, but I doubt it, I have to do some work...
I think that the reasons you outlined are also the reasons that these two machines are still in demand and holding their prices.
FFF:
Got it in one there! That's the nub of the problem. I also really like your use of the word 'allude'! I'm not being deliberately circumspect, I really am trying to appreciate both helicopters in every way. I could wait until Heli-expo in Feb, though I did want to have started the process by then, but you make a good point. Was your aircraft acquisition course in the US? Thanks for the reply.
Impress to inflate: I do think big, it's just that my accountant hasn't quite grasped the concept yet, he keeps telling me that I have fiscal limitations, and that I have to consider running costs! I just wish he'd get with 'my' acquisition program
Pee Ess. The tribe's enough; in-laws and friends too
!
Dynamic Component: I'm not aware of the engine-swap thing with the As350, is that an end-of-life thing or routine maintenance? Thanks for the great heads-up for Eurocopter service, you are the third positive vote for them. Unfortunately nobody has said anything good about Turbomeca service? Anybody?
Great replies again, and great PM's too. I have been privately chided for discounting the Longranger, and ignoring the fact that it fits my needs perfectly. Also I have had another vote for the Longranger, so I mustn't ignore it.
FFF got it right with the As350 leaning; but now I have two Bells to hold in consideration, the 407 and the 206L4.
I can't ignore them despite their somewhat 'ancient' architecture . One Rotorhead runs both types and tells me that he prefers the 407. This about sums it up. Any more two cents worth would be greatly appreciated. More soon in this acquisition saga!
Rotormotor.
gov1: never really considered the A119, too big and heavy I think. Also, wasn't the only one in the UK a rally support vehicle?
docstone: Hello again; I won't confuse the two, I just mentioned it in a sense of fair play.
skidbiter2: Great post, you obviously have a lot of experience. I haven't quite got to night flying yet, but I'd like to try and master it at some stage. I'd love to do 100 hours a month, but I doubt it, I have to do some work...
I think that the reasons you outlined are also the reasons that these two machines are still in demand and holding their prices.FFF:
I would err towards the AS350, but I also really like the B407
Impress to inflate: I do think big, it's just that my accountant hasn't quite grasped the concept yet, he keeps telling me that I have fiscal limitations, and that I have to consider running costs! I just wish he'd get with 'my' acquisition program
Pee Ess. The tribe's enough; in-laws and friends too!Dynamic Component: I'm not aware of the engine-swap thing with the As350, is that an end-of-life thing or routine maintenance? Thanks for the great heads-up for Eurocopter service, you are the third positive vote for them. Unfortunately nobody has said anything good about Turbomeca service? Anybody?
Great replies again, and great PM's too. I have been privately chided for discounting the Longranger, and ignoring the fact that it fits my needs perfectly. Also I have had another vote for the Longranger, so I mustn't ignore it.
FFF got it right with the As350 leaning; but now I have two Bells to hold in consideration, the 407 and the 206L4.
I can't ignore them despite their somewhat 'ancient' architecture . One Rotorhead runs both types and tells me that he prefers the 407. This about sums it up. Any more two cents worth would be greatly appreciated. More soon in this acquisition saga! Rotormotor.
Last edited by Rotormotor; 20th Dec 2007 at 07:47. Reason: Forgot smiley!
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407 may look old fashioned on the outside, but underneath its pretty leading edge stuff - Kiowa military head, composites galore, gearbox will run oil dry for hours at 120%...and no Turbomeca AOG support to fight with.
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I would be going a Bell product, good support & flow of parts. Much cheaper & consistent than the French. The L4 is a great machine & if your funds allow then go the 407. You wont be disappointed. Fast, smooth, oodles of power to get you out of any situation & the rear facing pax will get used to it, at least they can look at each other when they chat. I have operated all the machines mentioned & still prefer the 407 to them all. No surprises, heaps of grunt, maintenance - no problems. The L4 is also a great machine that wont let you down. If you are funds limited further then the 206 is a solid investment, an honest machine that has proven itself & is a tireless performer, depends on how many bums, bags & distances you wanna go. Stick with Bell & you wont be let down
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206 jock please tell me more.......
Just reading the comments about a 206 via Denmark to escape vat. I am looking for a JR3 at the moment. Please fill me in a bit more on rules and regs.Thanks,
AT
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Docstone: Post edited to include forgotten smiley! Didn't intend to impugn Bell!Rotors88: Another vote for the 407 and the Longranger! There's been strong support for both camps, Eurocopter and Bell, and strong, well-reasoned arguments for the As350 of all variants, and the B206 in normal and Longranger forms. But for me the overriding feeling has been the sheer affection which pilots hold for the Bell 407.
I've also come across similar affection on the military forums, where pilots express their confidence and enjoyment in flying the Oh-58D Kiowa Warrior version. I suppose you can't say better than that really?
So, apologies to all those that supported the As350, now it comes down to looking at just the 407 and the Longranger; though I am leaning towards the 407 right now. I know you said this in the first place Docstone, I just had to work through it all!
I have been looking through various heli-sales websites, mainly the AV one, and I have noticed a number of both the above variants for sale on the 'N' registrations. Can anyone explain to me the implications of 'importing' one? If I buy one (from Ireland say) can it stay 'N' registered in the UK, or do I have to change it to 'G'? Does this lead to problems with different equipment not being 'G' certified and such?
Thanks again for all your replies and the time taken doing so, much appreciated.
Even though I haven't advanced much in real experience yet, I feel as though I have a much better understanding of what I am getting into, and the implications of said in both money and mechanical terms. Much more so than I had just a week ago, and it's all down to the good folk of Rotorheads!
Thanks again, all replies and Pm's have been much appreciated!
Rotormotor.
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The 206L is much easier to stow in a narrow place with only 2 blades, does not quiet have the reserve grunt the 407 has but none the less, its a comfortable, reliable, safe & honest machine. A dream to auto & runs very economically with few if any surprises. Good resale too. Mind you if hangar space & funds were not in question I would not hesitate to go with the 407, there are very few singles than can perform like her, maybe the B3 (just) but at what price?. Have sat on the ground for 4 months waiting on French parts so they can smoke me, Bell has not let me down like that..
