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Sea King too old and putting Lives at risk.

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Sea King too old and putting Lives at risk.

Old 18th Nov 2007, 18:04
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Ah another civvi vs Mil SAR argument! Well I thought PC was looking well. and I too remember when the whole of the east coast was u/s for a couple of hours. As for SAR H. Well I say all bets are off till 2009. What I would say to all is get a copy of the presentation done by the GC and Mil. It's very funny and if you look through the double speak quite revealling.
Crab, as for 2nds all I can say is agggggghhhhhhhh noooooooohhhh!

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Old 18th Nov 2007, 20:11
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Wiretensioner - take a Sea King........are you mad??? Do you know how many serviceable we would have to have to get an overnight authorised somewhere???
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Old 18th Nov 2007, 20:42
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Crab,

You misunderstood my post, I was not miffed at lack of recognician, but the fact the the news was all RAF. We were aware at the time that RAF SAR was under pressure but we did not expect the amount of coverage given.

The report by the HSE states that the survivours were winched by Navy "believed to be Sea King Helicopters", So if they were in fact RAF helicopters only goes to re-enforce your comment.

At the end of the day whoever carries out SAR duties do it to the best of their abilities whether it be Bristow, CHC, or the Military. The individual at the point of rescue won't give a dam who is picking him/her up. Whoever you are you will be the best.

As long as there is interservice or civilian rivalry there is always going to be bragging rights or who has the biggest willy, this is healthy and should be encouraged, derogatory remarks should not.
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Old 19th Nov 2007, 12:18
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Crab

How silly of me to forget a simple thing like Sea King serviceability.

Wiretensioner
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Old 19th Nov 2007, 21:25
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Sar S92

Hay Crab I seem to remember the Sea King 3A comming into service and then being taken out of service less than 1 month later because it was unsafe. The S92 is doing a lot better than that! It is not perfect yet, but it will develop into a very good SAR aircraft. It is very early days for the SAR S92!
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Old 19th Nov 2007, 22:40
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Crab Said;

"Yes, I put my hand up to MRCC v MRSC, I copied 3D without checking. As for command and control, the very fact that over 30nm means checking with the ARCCK is a clear indicator of who has overall control of all SAR helicopters in the UK - Kinloss. That logically leads to them being quite entitled to log every SAR job as one that they have co-ordinated whether they were directly involved or not."

You missed my point. We tell Kinloss after the helo has landed at the end of the job. We would like to be co-operative and inform them as soon as possible before lift off but sometimes we are too busy and a second job starts during the first. This leads to a situation where the Kinloss guys congratulate themselves on "coordinating" a job yesterday that they only knew about today.

"The fact that you don't have a direct line to Kinloss ...."

We do. When I hit the button a voice says "Hello Portland". It does not say "This the national coordinator of only 13 assets how may we help you.."
(An MRCC typically has around 40 assets).

The sole purpose of Kinloss is to act as a booking agency that will calculate the nearest and fastest helicopter. As a general guide if the target is within 30 nm of Portland or Lee-on-Solent then it is not worth their time to work out who could get there first.

What I think is a fraud is that an MRCC evaluates the situation, conducts the search planning, coordinates other assets, deploys a helo as minor asset in the search, tells Kinloss about it later and then Kinloss claims credit for having done some work when they did nothing other than stick a pin in a map.

Last edited by Send'em; 19th Nov 2007 at 22:52.
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Old 19th Nov 2007, 22:59
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Crab said;

"3D - so, other than the fact that the FLIR is swapped between 1st and second aircraft, everything I wrote is correct - it does not have to be the same spec as the 1sts in terms of autohover etc and it doesn't have a crew."

Eh ? It does have a crew. The crew are there to fly the available helicopter.
We have a spare so if one breaks the "CREW" fly the other one.

Do you do it differently in the RAF ?
Do you have to wait for someone to paint your name on the side before you will get into it ?
Do you have to wait for the paint to dry ?
After 8 hours waiting for the paint to dry are you not allowed to fly ?
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 06:10
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Sendem - as soon as you are tasked, ARCC are informed and it appears on the RCS, all of our SAR flights know the state of the whole of the UK because of this system that the MCA won't let you have. Just how many aviation assets does your MRCC have?

Have you ever been to Kinloss to see what your tasking authority does - your oversimplified statement would suggest not.

3D was the one who stated you don't have a direct line - are Portland and Lee operating to different rules?

As for your last post, you well know what I was commenting on regarding second standby - you don't have a seconds crew and we do, is that simple enough for you.

And, oh yes, we do do it very differently in the RAF. The difference is mainly in ethos, we constantly strive to be better at our job, improve our capability, improve our equipment, revise our SOPs (ever heard of them). We don't just tick the contractual boxes and send anyone away who has a good idea, justifying that it isn't in the contract so we won't get paid for it.

Gaspode - yes but it didn't have problems with gearboxes cracking and dumping oil everywhere - it just had some avionic issues that should have been corrected at Boscombe Down.
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 09:09
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Post deleted for personal abuse

ropedope,

You do not enhance your username with such posts: no matter what you think of the posts of other Rotorheads, keep your responses civil, or take them elsewhere

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 20th Nov 2007 at 09:58. Reason: Personal abuse
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 10:30
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Crab.
As usual, you have not read and understood the whole post. If you check his/her title, I think you will find that "Send'em" is actually a member of the MCA!! (Title is obviously lost on you..) and not a Bristow employee, as I freely admit to being.( Not a dig Send'em.)
We, at the flight, DO NOT have direct access to ARCCK. The MRCC may have. but WE DON'T!!!!!!!! O.K. got that one?????
Second standby. I think we have done that to death!! The taxpayer, you and I, foot the bill for that.
Now to the nitty gritty.
I think you have just blown away any chance of getting a non hostile reception at any MCA flight with your comments on standards! What an arrogant attitude to start the day with.
I am amazed you need to practice and have SOPS,(yes we do have them) you always put it across that you cannot surpass perfection. That is, I think you will find, the attitude which really p....s everyone off with the whole RAF.
Improve equipment?? Would you care to inform us just how long it took you to get FLIR!!! (Something that MCA aircraft had light years before you even thought about it!!) Admitted, yours is better than ours at the moment but that will change with the advent of the new aircraft. And do all your aircraft have it now? That is a question, not a dig.
Ropedope.
A bit strong but right on the nail!!!
His post has since been removed but summed it up really what a lot of people think Crab is doing, ie. trying to save a lost cause.( And in the process, keeping lots of people in cushy office jobs.) Not you Crab, I know you are at the sharp end but lots of people at ARCCK are just duplicating jobs that can be, and are carried out at an MRCC.
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 13:13
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I blame the MCA. How many times have we seen a tasking successfully co-ordinated by the Coastguard being followed by some bloke from "RAF Kinloss" on the telly taking all the credit for it. The MCA just sit back and allow the RAF to trample all over them. Mind you the MCA PR department only seems to focus on the south coast and generally fails to properly inform the media so you could easily mistake the Coastguard for being a English Channel Patrol Group!
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 13:42
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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3D cam - send'em's handle was obviously too subtle for me - does yours mean you are a 3 dimensional camera??

It might have been his use of 'we' when stating that he does have a direct line (we were talking about SAR flights not MRCCs)- he did not highlight the fact he was from MCA in his post. If he had then you wouldn't have to shout at me about it - I replied to his statement in good faith.

If it pisses you off that we do things a certain way and are proud of our high standards then watch out in 2012 when you have to start doing all the stuff that we do now. You won't be able to maintain the standards we have now across all the disciplines because you won't be allowed all the training hours (IMC PLB homings, radar letdowns, FLIR searching, NVG, Mountain flying etc etc etc) because it will cost too much and some beancounter will make you try and cut your flying hours because it's an easy thing to do. Look at the Police and AA - it's mostly on-the-job training because otherwise it costs money.

Yes the FLIR took a long time to get but that wasn't from lack of trying and eventually the money was found to enhance our capability without having to make a profit on it.

I may be trying to save a lost cause but until it is proven that civilianising military SAR will do anything other than reduce capability then I will keep going - I'm not doing it to win friends (probably just as well), just prevent the British Public from being short-changed.

It's a shame I missed ropedope's post but I suspect it was long on abuse and short on fact. You seem to think I am in some ivory tower and don't know anyone outside military SAR - I don't make any of this stuff up and many tit-bits come from guys who are doing your job and recognise that the Holy Grail of civilian SAR is not so holy.

If there is arrogance in attitude perhaps it is those who think they can do more with less that have the problem
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 13:50
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Fact - The MCA are advised when RAF/RN bases are off state. SYY MCA call the SYY SAR unit to say that Lossiemouth are off state and SYY have to cover their area, it also happens elsewhere.

FAct - MCA units do not have RCS (and I know what i stand for)

Fact - The Mk3A did not go out of service after a month. Introduction was delayed due to the avionics/autopilot problems and when they were sorted, then the aircraft entered service.

Fact - the only capability differences that exists at the moment between the RAF and CHC/Bristows aircraft are:

1. Lack of NVG.
2. Lack of autohover on the standby aircraft.

The RAF wins on both these points, but, that is all. There's not much between the two services and in any case the gap will diminish with once CHC have taken over Portland. Then its only NVG and that will be sorted out with SARH (wont it?)
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 14:42
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The Crab said: If there is arrogance in attitude perhaps it is those who think they can do more with less that have the problem.

Then clearly you do not deny the accusation dear boy. Rightly so in my book, from what I have read here and elsewhere. You really do not think that there are others out there in the real world who can do just as well as you perceive yourself to do. Well that is how it reads IMO.

Pride comes before a fall and you'd do well to enjoy your career, I suspect it will be difficult if not impossible to replace out here. We refused an ex Squadron Leader last year, just wouldn't fit in, far too arrogant to adjust, felt it was not necessary.

Good luck ginger.
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 14:42
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And lets not forget twin winches on both aircraft on the MCA flights
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 15:20
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Admitted, yours is better than ours at the moment but that will change with the advent of the new aircraft.
Already has up North.

Poor old Crab, at it again. He's a bit like Napoleon - just keeps coming back! Mind you, Napoleon was eventually defeated in the Battle of Waterloo albeit only after the timely intervention of the RAF...... and you all thought it was the Prussians!!!
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 17:06
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Have it your own way chaps, we have already been round all the buoys several times and it is getting very tedious - I have said my piece and if you don't like it or don't agree with it, that's your choice. Time will tell.

Calli - yet again you think I am digging at the individual crews which is not the case. You miss my point in that you say you can choose when and how you train (do you really do 4 hrs plus a shift?) but our training is mandated to ensure that we keep topped up on all the disciplines. As for kit - how is your Polycon doing ?

I do worry that many seem to think the adoption of NVG ops will be simple and straightforward.
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 17:06
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Crab.
Wow, you really have wound up some people this time!
Wiretensioner.
Sorry, forgot about the dual hoist!
See Crab, that's the differance. Civvies can react to an accident, in this case the very sad loss of Billy Deacon, quicker than the military because we don't have to go through the likes of Boscombe Down! You are still waiting, I believe, for your equal capability dual hoist. Mind you, that's probably a good thing if you have to get Wastelands involved!
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 19:25
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Speechless2 - Why is it always assumed that the civilian way of doing things is new, better or cheaper? I defend my service and the job we do robustly because we are going to be sold off for the sake of convenience and a dwindling MoD budget, not because we aren't any good or can't launch for SAROps because the aircraft are U/s. If you don't understand my frustration at this then so be it, if you want to see this as poor CRM or arrogance then so be it. You make so many unfounded assumptions about me without knowing me that I am rather glad not to be working for you.

As for visiting an MCA flight, I am still waiting for an invitation - but how many MCA pilots have visited an RAF SAR flight recently to see how we do business, it's not a one way street you know.

3D - we have been carrying an emergency hoist for many years now and it has yet to be used in anger. I do seem to be quite good at putting peoples backs up, maybe I should write a book about it.
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Old 20th Nov 2007, 19:56
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Then Crab, you must curb your frustration for you are either misinterpreting or just not reading posts properly or in their entirety.
Yousuggested a lowering of standards if RAF SAR assets form part of a civilian organisation in the future and no matter how much others explain to you that this is not accurate you stick to your guns.
Your unwillingness to accept the justifiable criticism levelled at you (not all of it was justifiable) for any number of reasons is testament to pure arrogance and does not bode well for career prospects should SARH mean you have to apply to a civilian operator to remain in SAR in the south west. Many management personnel within the 2 main competitors for SARH read and sometimes post here, they won't be responding to your CV any time soon.
I agree with many of the posts here and it is testament to many of the comments that some of the criticism comes from those former members of the same service....
N
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