R44 corrosion/"stoppo motors" merged threads
Cool as a moosp
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Shawn you have a point about whether it is a safety issue, but whilst there is an inflight start procedure in the POH then I believe there is a good case to say it is a safety issue.
As a previous poster pointed out, Robinson does have a problem with this old engine, and though it is not the fault of their engineers it comes back to sales and marketing as to the overall quality of the machine, with a vengeance.
As a previous poster pointed out, Robinson does have a problem with this old engine, and though it is not the fault of their engineers it comes back to sales and marketing as to the overall quality of the machine, with a vengeance.
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Scooter, yes, the aircraft is used in training, and also for self fly hire; as well as AOC work by the commercial pilots at the outfit.
The irony is that there are two R44's at the same base, and that the other R44 (not Nic's machine) has always been more touchy about starting, needing a longer hold before it catches. Yet this other aircraft has not [yet!] fouled any of its ring gears, and has murdered less than half the starters (despite Robinson's best efforts to provide dubious lightweight models) when compared with Nic's.
On the note of re-engaging before letting it wind down, the instructors do ensure they brief every student to wait the listed 30 seconds between start attempt. So this, although potentially a big issue, should not be the case in this scenario.
The irony is that there are two R44's at the same base, and that the other R44 (not Nic's machine) has always been more touchy about starting, needing a longer hold before it catches. Yet this other aircraft has not [yet!] fouled any of its ring gears, and has murdered less than half the starters (despite Robinson's best efforts to provide dubious lightweight models) when compared with Nic's.
On the note of re-engaging before letting it wind down, the instructors do ensure they brief every student to wait the listed 30 seconds between start attempt. So this, although potentially a big issue, should not be the case in this scenario.
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The lycoming starter ring gear problem is not new. Enstroms have suffered the same problem for 30 years.
The mechanism of failure is that while the starter is energised the retard points are active but as soon as the start switch is released, the main points are activated. If the start fails and the starter is unfortunately released at the exact instant the main points open, the engine will kick back while the starter is still engaged with the ring gear. This will either crack the starter housing or remove teeth from the ring gear or both. The only solution, unfortunately not authorised, is to hold on the retard points until after the starter has dropped out of mesh with the ring gear. An old dodge was to put in a manual switch to keep the retard points active until the engine was running and then manually switch across to the main points. This solves the problem 100%. A simple timed relay will do the same job automatically. Kick back is impossible while the retard points are in control.
As this is not a legal mod I'm afraid you got to live with it.
My Enstrom has had 14 ring gears/starters in its 30 year life.
This is not so much of a problem with fixed wing as the momentum provided by the extra weight of the prop prevents the destructive kick back.
Edit. By the way, its much more likely to happen if the starter is sluggish or the battery is down. Keep the timing right as well. Check all connections are good especially the battery and earthing straps. It is more likely to happen with higher compression engines running more ingition advance hence the problem for non turbo enstroms and raven 2s.
And to add a bit more, its not pilot error. Keeping the starter activated for a short while after the engine starts will not harm the starter. There is a clutch on the starter pinion of a B&C to protect it. Activating the starter with the engine running will make a horrid noise but the gears will not mesh so there will be no damage apart from polished edges of the teeth. Not a good idea to do it too much though.
The only thing that will provide enough energy to smash castings and strip gears is a kickback with the gears in mesh. The pilot has no control over that.
The mechanism of failure is that while the starter is energised the retard points are active but as soon as the start switch is released, the main points are activated. If the start fails and the starter is unfortunately released at the exact instant the main points open, the engine will kick back while the starter is still engaged with the ring gear. This will either crack the starter housing or remove teeth from the ring gear or both. The only solution, unfortunately not authorised, is to hold on the retard points until after the starter has dropped out of mesh with the ring gear. An old dodge was to put in a manual switch to keep the retard points active until the engine was running and then manually switch across to the main points. This solves the problem 100%. A simple timed relay will do the same job automatically. Kick back is impossible while the retard points are in control.
As this is not a legal mod I'm afraid you got to live with it.
My Enstrom has had 14 ring gears/starters in its 30 year life.
This is not so much of a problem with fixed wing as the momentum provided by the extra weight of the prop prevents the destructive kick back.
Edit. By the way, its much more likely to happen if the starter is sluggish or the battery is down. Keep the timing right as well. Check all connections are good especially the battery and earthing straps. It is more likely to happen with higher compression engines running more ingition advance hence the problem for non turbo enstroms and raven 2s.
And to add a bit more, its not pilot error. Keeping the starter activated for a short while after the engine starts will not harm the starter. There is a clutch on the starter pinion of a B&C to protect it. Activating the starter with the engine running will make a horrid noise but the gears will not mesh so there will be no damage apart from polished edges of the teeth. Not a good idea to do it too much though.
The only thing that will provide enough energy to smash castings and strip gears is a kickback with the gears in mesh. The pilot has no control over that.
Last edited by Gaseous; 14th Jun 2008 at 01:11.
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In reply to Shawn's post: here in New Zealand our CAA gathered up all of the R44 sprag (overunning) clutch problems by serial number, and on realizing that they weren't lasting long, issued an AD requiring inspection at 500 hours instead of 2200 hours. This data was presented to Robinson (about 23 occurences I think). An improved clutch is now available I believe. One has been fitted in NZ as a trial. So yes, if the data is collected and presented by the regulator, the FAA and Robinson do listen.
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Gaseous IS TOTALLY CORRECT!
on a ship that has had 5 ring gears and starters from starting kickback
in less than 300 hrs ! and all long flights the time delayed switch is the fix or remote switch!! Has Robertson adressed this issue?? and as far as legal well i'll like to see a well dressed attourney in the remote wilderness of Alaska either at -40 in the winter our summer in a bug infested swamp waiting for me to get a starter that has busted our drive gear that need replaced!! its in the slick start as soon as power is dropped the primary points kick in if the engine is not turning over enough it will kick back
i think all you owners of R-44 with this starting system should write the factory i just work on fixed wing mostly but i think this needs to be adressed the owner of this R 44 has spent alot of money in Labor and parts and i know its not his starting technique! I see not one SB addressing this issue
Steve
on a ship that has had 5 ring gears and starters from starting kickback
in less than 300 hrs ! and all long flights the time delayed switch is the fix or remote switch!! Has Robertson adressed this issue?? and as far as legal well i'll like to see a well dressed attourney in the remote wilderness of Alaska either at -40 in the winter our summer in a bug infested swamp waiting for me to get a starter that has busted our drive gear that need replaced!! its in the slick start as soon as power is dropped the primary points kick in if the engine is not turning over enough it will kick back
i think all you owners of R-44 with this starting system should write the factory i just work on fixed wing mostly but i think this needs to be adressed the owner of this R 44 has spent alot of money in Labor and parts and i know its not his starting technique! I see not one SB addressing this issue
Steve
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A number of posts on this thread have referred to running down the battery as a result of starting difficulties. I understand the R22/44 series helicopters do not have external power receptacles, although I may be mistaken. If they don't, is a Robinson option or an STC installation available?
As one contributer explained, don't simply accept these repetitive mechanical failures, make sure Robinson and Lycoming are fully aware of them by whatever means possible. Also, don't assume that either manufacturer is fully aware of what is happening with their products in service, it is only with feedback from operators that they can develope product improvements. Remember, repeated technical problems adversley affect the image and reputation of the product, i.e. their 'bottom line', and this is a sure fire way to get someones attention.
As one contributer explained, don't simply accept these repetitive mechanical failures, make sure Robinson and Lycoming are fully aware of them by whatever means possible. Also, don't assume that either manufacturer is fully aware of what is happening with their products in service, it is only with feedback from operators that they can develope product improvements. Remember, repeated technical problems adversley affect the image and reputation of the product, i.e. their 'bottom line', and this is a sure fire way to get someones attention.
I would have thought that a manufacturer who values customers would have noticed the posts on web sites, or the larger than expected?? take up of parts of any description (Sprag Clutches) would at least come up with a subsidised repair 
until a fix found.
If we as owners keep paying and not making our displeasure felt they will not address the problems, start by Emailing the factory EVERY time there is a problem, ask what they are doing to cure your problem, Email CEO, service, AOG department, and if no reply keep emailing till they do.
Also remember there are other machines out there.
until a fix found.If we as owners keep paying and not making our displeasure felt they will not address the problems, start by Emailing the factory EVERY time there is a problem, ask what they are doing to cure your problem, Email CEO, service, AOG department, and if no reply keep emailing till they do.
Also remember there are other machines out there.
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I assume you are all submitting Service Difficulty Reports on this problem...
Only way this can be documented completely. Might get the attention of the authorities. Certainly will get the attention of attorneys....
(the authorities might take the view that if you can't start, you can't fly, and that's a safe thing... but the counter is that if you had to do a restart in the air, it might not work!)
Only way this can be documented completely. Might get the attention of the authorities. Certainly will get the attention of attorneys....
(the authorities might take the view that if you can't start, you can't fly, and that's a safe thing... but the counter is that if you had to do a restart in the air, it might not work!)
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I have always been staggered at the way aviators are prepared to bend over and drop their pants.
UK consumer law decrees "fitness for purpose"....a starting -system that can be called "disposable", is not fit for the job.
Many manufacturers try to hush-up non-critical,non-safety recalls,- they cost a disproportionate amount in resources and time.
This Robinson fiasco would not be tolerated if it was a mass-market car /tractor / truck......If a machine is "experimental", you takes your chances
You accept that this is a developing product and as an "early adopter" you may get unexpected reliability and durability problems....likewise ,operating outside standard conditions (racing or rallying cars, you expect to exceed the performance envelope.)
This is a production helicopter, volume-produced and has a large and varied consumer-base.
Don't insult my, or the customers' intelligence by suggesting they are not aware of the vastly disproportionate number of starters and associated components they are selling.
A concerted campaign of writs for unmerchantable quality/fitness for purpose could well concentrate their minds on an approved redesign/mod.
If you add up the costs of some people here, it'd be cheaper to just leave it permanently idling
UK consumer law decrees "fitness for purpose"....a starting -system that can be called "disposable", is not fit for the job.
Many manufacturers try to hush-up non-critical,non-safety recalls,- they cost a disproportionate amount in resources and time.
This Robinson fiasco would not be tolerated if it was a mass-market car /tractor / truck......If a machine is "experimental", you takes your chances
You accept that this is a developing product and as an "early adopter" you may get unexpected reliability and durability problems....likewise ,operating outside standard conditions (racing or rallying cars, you expect to exceed the performance envelope.)
This is a production helicopter, volume-produced and has a large and varied consumer-base.
Don't insult my, or the customers' intelligence by suggesting they are not aware of the vastly disproportionate number of starters and associated components they are selling.
A concerted campaign of writs for unmerchantable quality/fitness for purpose could well concentrate their minds on an approved redesign/mod.
If you add up the costs of some people here, it'd be cheaper to just leave it permanently idling
Well said CS. but it is not only Robinson that has the theme it was the customers fault, so they pay
The other problem with most IC engined helios is the basic engine was designed 60 +years ago and we expect a higher reliability, how do you over rev a modern motor under 5000 rpm, & as for the oil consumption the problem is cost of certification of a new design, this has led to no one designing\or even radically redesigning a more cost effective unit
The other problem with most IC engined helios is the basic engine was designed 60 +years ago and we expect a higher reliability, how do you over rev a modern motor under 5000 rpm, & as for the oil consumption
the problem is cost of certification of a new design, this has led to no one designing\or even radically redesigning a more cost effective unit
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the same problems are just as bad in australia, lots of people very pissed off with robinson.
plenty of ring gears on the scrap heap and plenty more to come.
always the pilots fault never theirs, no no no.
90 hour rotor blade corroded and unserviceable at a dealers premises,
our machine less than two hundred hours the same thing but its our fault. we have been operating for thirty years with all different types with no problems and all hangared and cared for but it is our fault because we are not looking after them properly.
frank is in complete denial.
class action.
plenty of ring gears on the scrap heap and plenty more to come.
always the pilots fault never theirs, no no no.
90 hour rotor blade corroded and unserviceable at a dealers premises,
our machine less than two hundred hours the same thing but its our fault. we have been operating for thirty years with all different types with no problems and all hangared and cared for but it is our fault because we are not looking after them properly.
frank is in complete denial.
class action.
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Warranty
Hi all,
I dont know what you are talking about.
When my 11 month old R44 started corroding - tail boom, empennage, tanks etc - they immediately shipped new replacement parts. They even applied the registration letters to it. Further, they put a £2k credit on my account in order that I could hire a machine while mine was down. I was up and running again in 7 days.
And then I woke up........
Comlete denial of responsibility, 'we cannot warrant against corrosion due to the vagiaries of the UK environment' etc. etc.
The vagiaries of the UK environment were restricted to the conditions inside my airconditioned hangar - it never got wet.
It cost me a busting load of money and several weeks down-time.
The best they offered - no acceptance of liability of course - was for me to ship the bits over at my expense for repair. I took the quicker. lower-cost option and had it done in the UK. They did offer to supply the paint...
Its a great aircraft despite. However, I think its important for any potential customers to know exactly what level of support they can expect from the factory.
In this way, their attitiude to complaints from unsuspecting punters - probably used to a loaner and top class service from their local car dealer irrespective of model - wont stress them out too much.
Later...
JB
I dont know what you are talking about.
When my 11 month old R44 started corroding - tail boom, empennage, tanks etc - they immediately shipped new replacement parts. They even applied the registration letters to it. Further, they put a £2k credit on my account in order that I could hire a machine while mine was down. I was up and running again in 7 days.
And then I woke up........
Comlete denial of responsibility, 'we cannot warrant against corrosion due to the vagiaries of the UK environment' etc. etc.
The vagiaries of the UK environment were restricted to the conditions inside my airconditioned hangar - it never got wet.
It cost me a busting load of money and several weeks down-time.
The best they offered - no acceptance of liability of course - was for me to ship the bits over at my expense for repair. I took the quicker. lower-cost option and had it done in the UK. They did offer to supply the paint...
Its a great aircraft despite. However, I think its important for any potential customers to know exactly what level of support they can expect from the factory.
In this way, their attitiude to complaints from unsuspecting punters - probably used to a loaner and top class service from their local car dealer irrespective of model - wont stress them out too much.
Later...
JB
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This is symptomatic of the legal and regulatory environment that has stifled development in light aviation. The technology is ancient. Magnetos - FFS its 2009!! I cant remember the last car I had with points let alone a magneto. Sure they work but can anyone seriously say that magnetos are the ignition system of choice now?
I have had 2 magnetos fail in flight so why we are still forced to use them is beyond me.
The kickback problem would not occur with a modern ignition system.
Even if the magnetos are retained it should be a $50 fix.
While the bloated and idiotic regulatory system heaps ludicrous costs on anyone hoping to fix a problem like this, let alone update the system, it ain't likely it's going to get fixed anytime soon.
The only hope, as has been said before, is to keep complaining to the manufacturer.
I have had 2 magnetos fail in flight so why we are still forced to use them is beyond me.The kickback problem would not occur with a modern ignition system.
Even if the magnetos are retained it should be a $50 fix.
While the bloated and idiotic regulatory system heaps ludicrous costs on anyone hoping to fix a problem like this, let alone update the system, it ain't likely it's going to get fixed anytime soon.
The only hope, as has been said before, is to keep complaining to the manufacturer.
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plenty of tail boom corrosion problems in australia as well, all in machines that are very well kept and hangared. no help from the factory at all. it is all our fault.
any type of corrosion protection at manufacture would help the problem but that would cost a few pennies wouldn't it frank?
any type of corrosion protection at manufacture would help the problem but that would cost a few pennies wouldn't it frank?
Frank might not have a solution for the corrosion, but he certainly has one for the ring gear & magneto faults - the R66!!! At least then you'll have a new corroded turbine machine in the hangar with it's tail boom off rather than a new corroded piston machine in the hangar with it's ring gear off. I can't wait.
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Warranty? hahahahahhaha.......
One of the greatest laughs around - Robinson warranty. Great if you live in Torrance and can hand deliver your broken item, not so good from anywhere else where freight costs are prohibitive.
I asked RHC if they would appoint an Australian agent who could investigate and address warranty issues - 'not being considered' was the response. Fantastic.
Air con issues abound, pi** poor fittings, switches etc etc. Local approved mods do the trick, get your local automotive mobile air con repair van down and after they get a great laugh looking at the rubbish fitted to the 44 system they will manufacture quality items. All followed up by engineering approvals for those who question. Why bother RHC with it, freight costs too much and on the odd chance they do approve warranty you will only being refiting the same crap that failed in the first place.
Mufflers - rubbish. Air filtration integrity - rubbish. Repainting blades every 100 hrs - rubbish. The list goes on...........
I asked RHC if they would appoint an Australian agent who could investigate and address warranty issues - 'not being considered' was the response. Fantastic.
Air con issues abound, pi** poor fittings, switches etc etc. Local approved mods do the trick, get your local automotive mobile air con repair van down and after they get a great laugh looking at the rubbish fitted to the 44 system they will manufacture quality items. All followed up by engineering approvals for those who question. Why bother RHC with it, freight costs too much and on the odd chance they do approve warranty you will only being refiting the same crap that failed in the first place.
Mufflers - rubbish. Air filtration integrity - rubbish. Repainting blades every 100 hrs - rubbish. The list goes on...........
