Guimbal Cabri G2
HH
Please tell me how much heavier a fuel injected engine is compared to a carb ? If you put a carb in your hand and an injector there is very little weight difference ! Would have thought fuel injection was more efficient !
Please tell me how much heavier a fuel injected engine is compared to a carb ? If you put a carb in your hand and an injector there is very little weight difference ! Would have thought fuel injection was more efficient !
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H500,
I do see your point but as you already know, my surname is Henri, not Bruno so I don't have all the real elements concerning the integration of the engine in the G2 to answer.
If you are waiting for an aircraft that suits at 100 % all your needs, unfortunately you will have to be very patient and you're well aware of that.
I don't know why (really just a feeling) but I'm almost sure that you will take a decision before the end of the year
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H500,
I do see your point but as you already know, my surname is Henri, not Bruno so I don't have all the real elements concerning the integration of the engine in the G2 to answer.
If you are waiting for an aircraft that suits at 100 % all your needs, unfortunately you will have to be very patient and you're well aware of that.
I don't know why (really just a feeling) but I'm almost sure that you will take a decision before the end of the year
.
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I would have to agree with the other comments about the carburettor and carb heat.
I've followed the little G2's development with casual interest, and there's a lot to commend it. But, in terms of an advanced design, the use of a carburettor fed engine seems very contradictory.
It may well work fine, but an unnecessary step backwards IMO.
I've followed the little G2's development with casual interest, and there's a lot to commend it. But, in terms of an advanced design, the use of a carburettor fed engine seems very contradictory.
It may well work fine, but an unnecessary step backwards IMO.
I hesitate to join this discussion but having flown a two seat helicopter with fuel injection for the past 20 plus years,I have found it reliable and worry free.Every one less thing to think about ticks my box.
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I have flown the G2 (very short) and liked it. I would like it even more with fuel injection. Shortly (this month?) I might have more regular access to a G2 and then build some hours so the carburettor is not going to keep me out of the machine but I am not buying one yet either.
If I were in charge of rules, I would not allow certification of any new carburettor engine for aircraft or certify the design of any new aircraft that used an existing approved carburettor engine. There is additional risk over the proven alternative of FI and it is risk that we don't need to take. I would like to see carburettor engines phased out of aircraft (not trying to stop any existing machine from being flown / manufactured / sold). Perhaps such a rule change is the only way to ensure that we move on.
If I were in charge of rules, I would not allow certification of any new carburettor engine for aircraft or certify the design of any new aircraft that used an existing approved carburettor engine. There is additional risk over the proven alternative of FI and it is risk that we don't need to take. I would like to see carburettor engines phased out of aircraft (not trying to stop any existing machine from being flown / manufactured / sold). Perhaps such a rule change is the only way to ensure that we move on.
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Hello JR81,
You're going to fly with EBG at Redhill ? (They should receive their new G2 at the end of this month).
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Hello JR81,
You're going to fly with EBG at Redhill ?
(They should receive their new G2 at the end of this month)..
Last edited by HeliHenri; 13th Feb 2014 at 12:48.
Well, is the very good feedback given by the operators and the order book fill still next year, a good explanation to say that their choice of engine was not as bad as you had stipulated ?
The "stupid" Bruno Guimbal gives two reasons for that choice, weight and cost.
If he were right, then back in the last century Schweizer/Sikorsky would have decided just for the fun of ruining revenue and performance to modify their 300CB (carburated) training heli to a "heavier, more expensive" ((c)Bruno) 300CBi (FI) successor.
I don't buy that.
I'd need to see serious data to back that claim.
You mean, if I have to choose between a brand new G2 and a brand new H300 ?
Given the ficticious chance, would you personally want to "upgrade" your ficticious heli's FI engine to a similarly powered carburated one, just from the technical point of view, lets assume someone else would be paying...?
If yes, please elaborate why.
Last edited by Reely340; 13th Feb 2014 at 18:40.
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Reely340,
You are going too far.
Several members of this forum know personally the person you are talking about, maybe they will add something about your statement above.
But as far as I'm concerned, I won't talk to you anymore.
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Here, I have to lean out of the window and claim: He is lying.
You are going too far.
Several members of this forum know personally the person you are talking about, maybe they will add something about your statement above.
But as far as I'm concerned, I won't talk to you anymore.
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Last edited by HeliHenri; 13th Feb 2014 at 19:00.
Reely340,
You are going too far.
You are going too far.
Several members of this forum know personally the person you are talking about, maybe they will add something.
exactly what I've been searching for since hearing about the G2. 
If there are personal friends of him on that forum, there must be someone knowing the real reason for him choosing an icing- and low G sensitive engine configuration for his otherswise really great aircraft.
I'm pretty sure Mr. Guimbal knew about S300C/CB/CBi engine history, R22 accidents etc. He hopefully did not draw straws while designing, hence I am genuinely interested in the underlying decision leading to a carburated engine...
But as far as I'm concerned, I won't talk to you anymore.
I'd still like to hear from you if you personally really think carburated is better than FI.
And if not, I'd hoped to hear from you as many reasons as are thinkable, be them finacial (inital cost / maintennance cost), political (no FI for the french coalition deserters ?), psychological... that might justify Guimbal's decision. I really am at the beginning of my helicopter industry intrinsics learning curve, and are craving insights into its backgrounds.
The only thing I admittedly have a problem with is statemants like "I'm right just because", I do plead guilty in that respect, especially in technical discussions. I never was good at merely believing "higher authorities", w/o being presented sesible reasoning.
FI or Carb?
I guess nobody has picked up on the fact that the "Carb Heat" on the G2 is "Automatic" and controlled by the EPM.
There are built in "self tests" and indications of system failures.
If you revert to "manual" or have any doubts you should select "HOT" whenever below 80% MLI.
Carb definitely starts a lot easier. FI has its own little foibles and is not the only answer.
With respect to FI - Lycoming would have to certify another engine as there is no equivalent to the current 360 model as used that is injected. It is not a case of just bolting an FI system on the existing engine.
A carburetor is lighter and cheaper to overhaul and or repair. USD 500.00 versus USD 5000.00.?
As to the zero G cuts - what were these people doing? If it was the competition the rotor probably would have departed as well.
The aircraft was developed personally by Bruno and first flew in 1992. I think his solution is a pretty good one.
Anybody ever experienced icing in a G2? Possibly not.
I guess nobody has picked up on the fact that the "Carb Heat" on the G2 is "Automatic" and controlled by the EPM.
There are built in "self tests" and indications of system failures.
If you revert to "manual" or have any doubts you should select "HOT" whenever below 80% MLI.
Carb definitely starts a lot easier. FI has its own little foibles and is not the only answer.
With respect to FI - Lycoming would have to certify another engine as there is no equivalent to the current 360 model as used that is injected. It is not a case of just bolting an FI system on the existing engine.
A carburetor is lighter and cheaper to overhaul and or repair. USD 500.00 versus USD 5000.00.?
As to the zero G cuts - what were these people doing? If it was the competition the rotor probably would have departed as well.
The aircraft was developed personally by Bruno and first flew in 1992. I think his solution is a pretty good one.
Anybody ever experienced icing in a G2? Possibly not.
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Heli Aviation (Germany) takes delivery of its eighth Cabri G2 !
Press release*- Heli Aviation GmbH
" With the eight Guimbal helicopter participating actively in training operations, Heli Aviation is continuing to develop its global competence advantage in respect of Cabri G2 and additionally satisfies the claim of operating the largest G2 fleet in the world used in an aviation school."
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Heli Aviation (Germany) takes delivery of its eighth Cabri G2 !
Press release*- Heli Aviation GmbH
" With the eight Guimbal helicopter participating actively in training operations, Heli Aviation is continuing to develop its global competence advantage in respect of Cabri G2 and additionally satisfies the claim of operating the largest G2 fleet in the world used in an aviation school."
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Hello H500
,
So what is his point of view about this subject ?
Must be interesting because if I remember well, he has worked for a firm producing diesel engines for fixed wings aircraft.
Diesel engine seems to be one of the three options examined for the G4.
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Hello H500
,So what is his point of view about this subject ?
Must be interesting because if I remember well, he has worked for a firm producing diesel engines for fixed wings aircraft.
Diesel engine seems to be one of the three options examined for the G4.
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 14th Feb 2014 at 09:28.
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I'm not a fan of carburator equipped engines in aircraft either and never understood nor will understand why Bruno put one in the G2.
Frpm what I have heard he decided to do so cause a lot of pilots/flight instructors asked him to do so.
The argument was that the carburator equipped engine starts a lot easier (Personally I disagree on that one).
As far as the the zero G cuts are concerned, you really have to push it over and hold it there for a loooooong time before you get even close to cut off the engine. Not a manoeuver you want to show any of your students or to any other kind of spectators.
The Cabri is a great machine to fly with and for x-mas I want one with a fuel injector.
Shouldn't it say SEVENTH 
after last weeks that little mishap 
Frpm what I have heard he decided to do so cause a lot of pilots/flight instructors asked him to do so.
The argument was that the carburator equipped engine starts a lot easier (Personally I disagree on that one).
As far as the the zero G cuts are concerned, you really have to push it over and hold it there for a loooooong time before you get even close to cut off the engine. Not a manoeuver you want to show any of your students or to any other kind of spectators.
The Cabri is a great machine to fly with and for x-mas I want one with a fuel injector.
Heli Aviation (Germany) takes delivery of its eighth Cabri G2 !
after last weeks that little mishap
Spunk it sums our industry up if flight instructors ( who normally have next to no experience ) asked him to put a carb in it !!
If you know what you are doing with FI then no problem. It is laughable that in 2014 we cant get a FI engine to start at a turn of a key !!! Now if your BMW or any car had the dramas that we put up with in aviation ...............
When will the regulatory bodies get their head out of the sand with certification rules. Currently Ford have a predicted failure rate of their engines of 10million to 1 bet Lycoming gets nowhere near that
G2 has a plasma start so presumably starting with FI would be no problem
HH diesel to heavy currently !! I assume too expensive to make out of aluminium ?
If you know what you are doing with FI then no problem. It is laughable that in 2014 we cant get a FI engine to start at a turn of a key !!! Now if your BMW or any car had the dramas that we put up with in aviation ...............
When will the regulatory bodies get their head out of the sand with certification rules. Currently Ford have a predicted failure rate of their engines of 10million to 1 bet Lycoming gets nowhere near that
G2 has a plasma start so presumably starting with FI would be no problem
HH diesel to heavy currently !! I assume too expensive to make out of aluminium ?
With respect to FI - Lycoming would have to certify another engine as there is no equivalent to the current 360 model as used that is injected. It is not a case of just bolting an FI system on the existing engine.
These 35 hp would have added great power reserves / hot and high capabilities / additional loading options to the otherwise great G2!
I'm still waiting for an explanation why they were not using the CBi's "heli certified" FI engine. IIRC even the mounting direction would be comparable. (e.g. no need for vertical crank..)
Carb definitely starts a lot easier.
One of our 300Cs has the standard starter, the other one some hi-torque STC(?) version. Granted they turn over the engine at different speeds but both fire up nicely, as soon as one has developed a feeling for how much throttle each type wants when cold.
Last edited by Reely340; 14th Feb 2014 at 14:04.