Guimbal Cabri G2
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I've had an hour or so in the Cabri - its a really nice machine, you can chuck it around without the fear of low G etc. Start-up is also a lot quicker and safer (for the machine!) than the 22/44 - just dial in what you want and away it goes.
It also has a nice trim system which makes flying so much easier than the R22 - if you do it right you can let go of the cyclic and it'll fly straight and level. I wouldn't dream of doing that in an R22.
Can't wait for these to hit the second hand market.
My only criticism is a nasty vibration especially when coming to a hover - Bruno isn't 100% sure why, but he thinks its to do with the 3 blade M/R setup. Hopefully its an easy fix.
It also has a nice trim system which makes flying so much easier than the R22 - if you do it right you can let go of the cyclic and it'll fly straight and level. I wouldn't dream of doing that in an R22.
Can't wait for these to hit the second hand market.
My only criticism is a nasty vibration especially when coming to a hover - Bruno isn't 100% sure why, but he thinks its to do with the 3 blade M/R setup. Hopefully its an easy fix.
obviously from a safety point of view its too early for the type but i've been reading about R22/R44 accidents and does anyone have a view?? I was reading about a German R44 shunt (D-HFSD) and the report I saw doesn't actually come to much of a conclusion.
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To me this aircraft is a big red herring, it may be nice to fly, but from a cost point of view it will not be able to compete with an R22. I have no idea how a training school will be able to make money from it.
Fluffy
Fluffy
Time will tell. From where I sit it makes a lot more sense than an R22.
Better, Faster, Cheaper - pick 2!
The R22 was NEVER designed as a training helicopter. Ask Frank.
Better, Faster, Cheaper - pick 2!
The R22 was NEVER designed as a training helicopter. Ask Frank.
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To me this aircraft is a big red herring, it may be nice to fly, but from a cost point of view it will not be able to compete with an R22. I have no idea how a training school will be able to make money from it.
Fluffy
Fluffy
Agree it has been launched at a difficult time, and training schools will be nervous about such big capital costs and such a new product.
For someone going on to fly European helicopters it must make more sense than an R22. Although, IMO, the S.300C. is also worth the extra cost over the R22.
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I am sorry have I missed something, how is this aircraft cheaper than the R22 !!!
And unfortunately ask yourself one question, why is the R22 the training aircraft......... Because it is far more cost effective, that is how training schools are able to make some small amount of money, the r22 was not meant to be a basic trainer, but due to fact of financial constraints it has been the most popular trainer for the last 20years.....
Fluffy
And unfortunately ask yourself one question, why is the R22 the training aircraft......... Because it is far more cost effective, that is how training schools are able to make some small amount of money, the r22 was not meant to be a basic trainer, but due to fact of financial constraints it has been the most popular trainer for the last 20years.....
Fluffy
fluffy,
NO finite lifed parts (throw most of an R22 away at 2200)
NO 2200 hour overhaul
NO calendar overhaul
The above run to about USD 130K not including paint and interior refurb.
Granted the capital cost is higher yet the DOC's are lower. And the way interest rates are what's the difference.
Luggage space - the R22 does have space under the seats with the proviso that you should only place objects in there that you would not mind passing through your sphincter.
Safe flight on windy days.
Pop outs - which can be removed/refitted by the pilot as operations require.
Removable and stowable dual controls.
Air conditioning - in the works.
Autorotation capabilities where the student might actually learn something.
If you stand back and look at the helicopters available with a Lyco 4 banger there is now more choice.
Crashworthiness.
Its not ugly.
"Price is what you pay, value is what you get"
NO finite lifed parts (throw most of an R22 away at 2200)
NO 2200 hour overhaul
NO calendar overhaul
The above run to about USD 130K not including paint and interior refurb.
Granted the capital cost is higher yet the DOC's are lower. And the way interest rates are what's the difference.
Luggage space - the R22 does have space under the seats with the proviso that you should only place objects in there that you would not mind passing through your sphincter.
Safe flight on windy days.
Pop outs - which can be removed/refitted by the pilot as operations require.
Removable and stowable dual controls.
Air conditioning - in the works.
Autorotation capabilities where the student might actually learn something.
If you stand back and look at the helicopters available with a Lyco 4 banger there is now more choice.
Crashworthiness.
Its not ugly.
"Price is what you pay, value is what you get"
fluffy : "I have no idea how a training school will be able to make money from it."
Hello, you should ask Heli Aviation in Germany for instance, maybe they could answer you : they've got six Cabri G2 for their training academy !
.
Hello, you should ask Heli Aviation in Germany for instance, maybe they could answer you : they've got six Cabri G2 for their training academy !
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 1st Sep 2012 at 14:39.
From a student point of view, who will once passed continue on their own in the model that they did their PPL, it just doesn't punish mistakes in the savage way an R22 would. Its almost inevitable that a low time pilot will make some mistake - as any pilot of any experience might for that matter.
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Well you lovers of this aircraft mark my words, in a few years time the nasty little problems will emerge due to unforeseen maintenanace issues of a new airframe on the market, and with students clanking it down on the ground, and then you will see how expensive it will be to rectify.
I will shut up for now, but I will revive this thread and laugh whole heartedly when the time comes.
Just to get a few in for now .......
Fluffy
I will shut up for now, but I will revive this thread and laugh whole heartedly when the time comes.
Just to get a few in for now .......
Fluffy
fluffy,
Well noted.
Back when I first flew the R22 in 1981 after coming from the H300, similar things were said.
Those were the days before "tip weighted" blades. Auto's were an eye-watering experience.
Went back to the H300.
The Cabri is not that "new" as it first flew in 1992 and a Type Cert was issued in 2007.
Franks philosophy was "low acquisition and operating costs".
And Bruno obviously has a different idea and has addressed a few of the shortcomings of the R22.
Well noted.
Back when I first flew the R22 in 1981 after coming from the H300, similar things were said.
Those were the days before "tip weighted" blades. Auto's were an eye-watering experience.
Went back to the H300.
The Cabri is not that "new" as it first flew in 1992 and a Type Cert was issued in 2007.
Franks philosophy was "low acquisition and operating costs".
And Bruno obviously has a different idea and has addressed a few of the shortcomings of the R22.
Fluf like you suggest the real cost will emerge in coming years but really unless it becomes so huge that you get toward turbine cost it won't matter.
There are so many people that won't entertain light helicopters because the safety is referenced off the R22 - and rightly or wrongly that is seen as very negative.
None of these machines are especially cheap however and outside of the training establishments the private owner is likely to reach the limit of an R22 by way of time passed idle than time in use.
Outside of that the capability of the G2 is vastly superior to the R22 - I'd not like to be sat in an R22 in a stall turn for example.
There are so many people that won't entertain light helicopters because the safety is referenced off the R22 - and rightly or wrongly that is seen as very negative.
None of these machines are especially cheap however and outside of the training establishments the private owner is likely to reach the limit of an R22 by way of time passed idle than time in use.
Outside of that the capability of the G2 is vastly superior to the R22 - I'd not like to be sat in an R22 in a stall turn for example.
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If this aircraft handles like a baby AS350 it will be a great transition aircraft for its turbine brother. I can't Imagine it beig as hard to land when one up as the aforementioned type!
Regards MF26
Regards MF26
Last edited by madflyer26; 3rd Sep 2012 at 11:45.
... and in the meantime at least the Cabri pilot is able to count the cost.. this is all too frequent with the R22 isn't it?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/494...wn-france.html
ok there are a greater number of R22's but these accidents hardly ever seem to have a satisfactory explaination.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/494...wn-france.html
ok there are a greater number of R22's but these accidents hardly ever seem to have a satisfactory explaination.
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not for me
There are definitely not enough flying Cabris to make statistics. You can't say it's not a new aircraft because one or two have been flying in the 90s'...
When these people will move from amateur to industrial scale, meaning they start producing more than few pieces a year, we will be able to make decision. Until then, I am not qualified to be a test pilot...
When these people will move from amateur to industrial scale, meaning they start producing more than few pieces a year, we will be able to make decision. Until then, I am not qualified to be a test pilot...
Hello VinceWS and welcome,
First message and already insulting, that's your choice.
You feel safer in an R22 because a lot have been produced, that's your choice.
But about the facts : first delivery in 2009 and by the end of the year, there will be 50 aircraft flying. Can we say that 50 build in 3 years is amateur ? well, you know what? that's quite the same figures than Bell and their 429 !
Do we have to be insulting and think that Bell are amateurs ?
I don't think so, but that's only my choice ...
.
First message and already insulting, that's your choice.
You feel safer in an R22 because a lot have been produced, that's your choice.
But about the facts : first delivery in 2009 and by the end of the year, there will be 50 aircraft flying. Can we say that 50 build in 3 years is amateur ? well, you know what? that's quite the same figures than Bell and their 429 !
Do we have to be insulting and think that Bell are amateurs ?
I don't think so, but that's only my choice ...
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 6th Sep 2012 at 08:42.
let's forget the polemics
You cannot compare the Robinson22 and the Guimbal Cabri2... one was conceived as a cheap machine for the private market and found itself a training machine by "accident" (SIC!!!), the other was conceived from the start as a trainer and with safety and longevity in mind (crash tested seats, safe autorotations, corrosion proof... etc...) Nevertheless, I do not have any experience in any of them but know I would never consider flying a Robby myself or let my family ride in one of them, maybe I am being irrational?...
