Guimbal Cabri G2
However the mis-spelling of the name is debateable. After all, Robinson's products have been similarly abbreviated to 'Robbos' and Robbies' in quite an endearing way by their supporters, with no disrespect implied or taken by anyone. It was only the Guimbal helicopter's name that was similarly shortened, but this was not directed at Mr Guimbal himself, just as in the Robbo's case.
On a far more serious level, how can it possibly be acceptable that a poster banned for changing Guimbal to Guimbo in a playful way, when other contributors persistently refer to Crapinson Flimsicopter, and keep getting away with it? It is nothing short of blatant bias. This changing of name is far more disrespectful, inflammatory, and potentially libellous, so how can the moderator possibly allow such derogatory name calling, laying PPRuNe and the poster(s) open to legal action from Robinson?
Blatant moderation bias, pure and simple.
Last edited by pilotmike; 9th Feb 2019 at 08:57.
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Speaking as someone who has thought a lot about what helicopter to buy... though sadly not quite there yet financially, and not sure I'd really buy one anyway (the economics of owning a private heli for recreational flying are truly awful).
All but one of my ~150 heli hours are in R44s, the other hour in a G2. I really enjoyed flying the G2 and I'm not super happy with the teetering rotor in the R44. But on balance if I did buy one, I think it would be the R44, for the extra seats and because with the hydraulics it is easier to fly.
Now if there really was a G4, that would be a different story - especially if it had hydraulics. I don't think the extra initial cost would be a big factor, especially since for low-time flying the time-based overhaul limit on the R44 would kick in long before the hours limit did - making the R44 a lot more expensive than it initially appears.
All but one of my ~150 heli hours are in R44s, the other hour in a G2. I really enjoyed flying the G2 and I'm not super happy with the teetering rotor in the R44. But on balance if I did buy one, I think it would be the R44, for the extra seats and because with the hydraulics it is easier to fly.
Now if there really was a G4, that would be a different story - especially if it had hydraulics. I don't think the extra initial cost would be a big factor, especially since for low-time flying the time-based overhaul limit on the R44 would kick in long before the hours limit did - making the R44 a lot more expensive than it initially appears.
Similarly, if you buy a used ship you will get hit with an overhaul before you have banked enough to pay for it, but you will make it up on the backside if you keep the machine through the proportionate number of hours after the overhaul. Either way, fly it 200 hours a year and that keeps the insurance cost per hour in the reasonable range and gets you to overhaul before 12 years. Assuming you get a good deal on insurance, you can stay right around $300/hr (no profit) including all fixed and operating costs. You know a G4 will be more (but better not be more than a 66 or it won't sell). It's not hard to keep it moving 200 hours a year. A couple or three guys as named insured plus you and it'll move. Or enter into agreement with a local school, etc. It's not hard to keep a 44 working unless you live in the boonies.
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Not sure what the issues in detail but as I understand it G-UIMB still has around 400hours in use as it is almost daily instructing new pilots. I think a private owner might take a few years to click up over 400 hours...
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Picture taken at Guimbal's home two days before the world cup final !
Coincidentally, the three G2s were in the process of being delivered at the same time and for three French customers, which is very rare, 90% of the prduction is exported.
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Picture taken at Guimbal's home two days before the world cup final !
Coincidentally, the three G2s were in the process of being delivered at the same time and for three French customers, which is very rare, 90% of the prduction is exported.
.
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R22s still outnumber G2s by at least 20 to 1. G2s may be winning based on recent delivery rates but they don't own the market yet. Once the itch and the niche is filled G2 production rates will fall off just like R22 rates. They question is how many G2s represent a saturated market? I'd be surprised if it goes over 1000 units. Time will tell.
R22s still outnumber G2s by at least 20 to 1. G2s may be winning based on recent delivery rates but they don't own the market yet. Once the itch and the niche is filled G2 production rates will fall off just like R22 rates. They question is how many G2s represent a saturated market? I'd be surprised if it goes over 1000 units. Time will tell.
It will be THE go to ship for private purchase and people have already seen the benefit of Robinson's push to use the cadet in training.
Schools can use a G4 for training and also accrue revenue through rental.
If Bruno ever brings out a G4 it will likely also kill a large chunk of his own G2 market.
It will be THE go to ship for private purchase.
It will be THE go to ship for private purchase.
When I spoke to Bruno, he was unsure about what engine to use, particularly given the development timescales and changing times we live in with regards to electrification etc. For what it's worth, my take is that for machines of this size, for a predominantly private market, diesels are too heavy and expensive, turbines are too expensive, Electrification is a long way off for helicopters, Lycomings will do the job - albeit imperfectly. Of the Lycoming range the IO-580-B1A is the best bet for a 4-seater, particularly if you add electronic ignition and perhaps GAMI injectors.
My take on the G4 spec would be:
MTOW: 1,250kg
Empty: 750kg
Payload: 500kg (140kg fuel, 360kg PAX)
Engine: Lycoming IO-580-B1A, 315hp de-rated to 275hp for 5-mins and 240hp Continuous.
Cruise Speed: 120kts
Vertical Climb @ MGW: >400fpm
Max Climb @ MGW/60kts: >1,500fpm
The fuel payload assumes you can keep the fuel consumption down with EFI and Gami injectors and appropriate mixture control, without it you end up with 19.3 US Gal/hr rather than 17.2 so you don't quite get the 3hrs.
All the above is a natural growth path from the G2 and would eat the R44 for breakfast, as long as it doesn't cost as much as Scottish Castle! Any private owner facing a re-build of an R44 would have to take such a machine seriously, just on the basis of controlled depreciation and improved performance, safety and appearance.
I don't think the G4 would impact the G2 market significantly as my understanding is most G2's are working machines rather than private machines.
There we go, gauntlet laid...come on Bruno (pleaseeeeeeee).
Step 1: Design the above
Step 2: Open Factory in Eastern Europe
Step 3: Announce £375K Base price
Step 4: Sell 300 units per year.
(All in jest, obviously).
CRAN
Last edited by CRAN; 18th Jul 2018 at 08:46. Reason: Added Power Curve
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@CRAN: yes exactly. But you'd need to keep base price under the 600USD/450GBP mark, and the all up operating cost at 500hrs/year at less than $300/hr to really steal away the R44 market. Start pushing up into $400/hr or higher category and you might as well get a used 66 or 206, since those operate at $500/hr or so.
However, perhaps most important, is that a G4 had better come with a blade fold kit as an available option at launch. This way all of the 44 owners Guimbal will be chasing can keep their current hangar spots. Otherwise the price, availability and hassle associated with obtaining a larger hangar space may put them into a used 66 instead, seriously.
However, perhaps most important, is that a G4 had better come with a blade fold kit as an available option at launch. This way all of the 44 owners Guimbal will be chasing can keep their current hangar spots. Otherwise the price, availability and hassle associated with obtaining a larger hangar space may put them into a used 66 instead, seriously.
AA,
All good points.
How significant is hangar cost in the operating costs of a machine of this size for a single private owner. I live in a relatively inexpensive area and could have a hangar spot for £3000/year, that would be less than 10% of my fixed costs to run an R44 privately/personally.
On the other hand if the R44, was ‘on-condition’ rather than lifed at 12-years, then that would save me £18,750/year (current UK overhaul prices with poor exchange rate). Assuming I wanted to keep the machine to myself rather than lease back. Hence why I think Guimbals approach works better for private owners.
This does all fall apart if the purchase price is so high that the capital cost dominates everything.
Its a fascinating conundrum.
CRAN
All good points.
How significant is hangar cost in the operating costs of a machine of this size for a single private owner. I live in a relatively inexpensive area and could have a hangar spot for £3000/year, that would be less than 10% of my fixed costs to run an R44 privately/personally.
On the other hand if the R44, was ‘on-condition’ rather than lifed at 12-years, then that would save me £18,750/year (current UK overhaul prices with poor exchange rate). Assuming I wanted to keep the machine to myself rather than lease back. Hence why I think Guimbals approach works better for private owners.
This does all fall apart if the purchase price is so high that the capital cost dominates everything.
Its a fascinating conundrum.
CRAN
Sure, but I'm basing it upon the idea of using it as a working machine too, possibly leasing to a school, in a challenge to the Cadet.
Good work, great machine, very safe and good trainer - for sure.For me potential was clearly visible in Mar 2011.,
by opening dedicated linkedin group (with no any commercial relation to producer)
G2 like brand new helicopter, was certified through EASA which was another important milestone
BTW please correct me but can not remember of any other, from zero to hero - through EASA
A trainer helicopter needs to be tolerant of those that have not yet learned to fly as well as instructors that can get caught out when they haven’t noticed something’s changed. And so they crash, even the last “perfect” trainer, the Bell47. As the Cabri gains marketshare (and I think it is a great trainer), it will likewise gain its share of misfortune. Today’s autorotation was no better than an R22.
Funny someone should bring this old thread up, I was just about to come here to ask a question about the Cabri.
I was watching this video, and at first thought there was a bug on the windshield, then I realized it was the trim string. As a pilot who is used to a divided windshield and two trim strings, I feel I must ask.
How weird is it just having one string, and in the middle of an undivided windshield like that?
https://youtu.be/AuaoJZM1_f8
I was watching this video, and at first thought there was a bug on the windshield, then I realized it was the trim string. As a pilot who is used to a divided windshield and two trim strings, I feel I must ask.
How weird is it just having one string, and in the middle of an undivided windshield like that?
https://youtu.be/AuaoJZM1_f8
