Guimbal Cabri G2
Butters, when you don't have anything to say about a topic, you know there is no binding obligation for you to keep on posting anyways? Some might actually say the opposite applies. Interestingly, you seem to be a bit obsessed with the G2!
Better red than ...
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,.... when you don't have anything to say about a topic, you know there is no binding obligation for you to keep on posting anyways? Some might actually say the opposite applies. Interestingly, you seem to be a bit obsessed with the ....
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Hello helicopter-redeye,
this thread is about the G2 so if you have a positive or a negative comment about it to post, that's the right place.
No need to post here to say : " what's left to say about it?".
With nearly one and a half milion views, it seems that "some" people are interesed by the G2.
.
this thread is about the G2 so if you have a positive or a negative comment about it to post, that's the right place.
No need to post here to say : " what's left to say about it?".
With nearly one and a half milion views, it seems that "some" people are interesed by the G2.
.
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How about these helicopters in action
How about some of these pictures BC Helicopters has been putting out there. Some great shots of the Cabri in action.
Absolutely, I'm all for that! Actually applies to all threads. If someone feels the need to express himself but doesn't have anything to contribute, maybe he's better off posting pictures of his lunch on the facebook instead of trolling around and diluting this forum with spam.
The two last years, Guimbal has produced more G2 than R22 and last year he sold more G2 in the US than R22.
Hopfully, there are plenty of R22, E280 and H300 everywhere so pilots or future pilots can choose wichever they want according to their desires, needs and means
.
Will be interesting to see where RSG moves with the 269 support. I think if they go back to pre-Sikorsky service level and price range, they might have an impact on Guimbal sales.
Oh no, I'm all for the Cabri as a training aircraft. Nice little helicopter.
Bruno will sell well as the 22 just doesn't meet modern standards anymore and no one with half a clue and a couple of dollars would keep investing in one.
Hopefully the reality tv star doesn't slap on a silly import duty to help keep the Robbie twitching a little longer, though Guimbal could probably just pop in a HEMI or a HD engine to make the administration happy
Bruno will sell well as the 22 just doesn't meet modern standards anymore and no one with half a clue and a couple of dollars would keep investing in one.
Hopefully the reality tv star doesn't slap on a silly import duty to help keep the Robbie twitching a little longer, though Guimbal could probably just pop in a HEMI or a HD engine to make the administration happy
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Ford sells small cars, as do Mercedes.
Hertz hire Fords, as they do Mercedes.
People buy & hire what helicopter their budgets and fancies take, so why the continuous slagging?
Maff, an answer may be that the Robinson collective are quite sensitive about their environment.
The old argument was that bigger aircraft were far too expensive and the Rxx is as good at doing the same job for less.
The Cabri came along and started eating Robbo's lunch, so the faithful found fault with the G2 also - mainly all about cost, though few actually understand the numbers.
The cost has a cost, namely safety, though the faithful never believe the machine carries any responsibility, it is always someone elses fault.
When ford's kept falling over in the US, they eventually found and fixed the problem. They didn't insert a note in the owners manual asking people to drive slower or to turn less enthusiastically.
No one goes to Hertz and asks for a small Ford or a Merc that has a 1-star NCAP rating in the hopes they can shave a few bucks off the rental.
But we digress.
I really hope they can produce a 4-seater Cabri, it would be interesting to see that eat the R44 marketshare also.
The old argument was that bigger aircraft were far too expensive and the Rxx is as good at doing the same job for less.
The Cabri came along and started eating Robbo's lunch, so the faithful found fault with the G2 also - mainly all about cost, though few actually understand the numbers.
The cost has a cost, namely safety, though the faithful never believe the machine carries any responsibility, it is always someone elses fault.
When ford's kept falling over in the US, they eventually found and fixed the problem. They didn't insert a note in the owners manual asking people to drive slower or to turn less enthusiastically.
No one goes to Hertz and asks for a small Ford or a Merc that has a 1-star NCAP rating in the hopes they can shave a few bucks off the rental.
But we digress.
I really hope they can produce a 4-seater Cabri, it would be interesting to see that eat the R44 marketshare also.
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It's way too early to be making blanket statements about Guimbal eating Robinson's lunch. Certainly the R22 market is so mature that additional sales are slow. Meanwhile, the G2 does admittedly fill a niche. Once that niche is filled the G2 production rate will become as low as the R22 rate, probably lower, since it is a niche machine, in the US, anyway.
The real questions are what is that niche, and how big is it? Clearly it is a better choice if someone is going to know they are transitioning straight into a larger, fenestron equipped machine. I can only speak from a narrow, US based perspective on this, but that market is quite small. The rich guys I see coming in for lessons have their hearts set on a 44 or maybe a 66, possibly even a 505, but that's it. Like a lot of wealthy guys they only want to buy a new machine and would turn their nose up, right or wrong, at a used 120 or 130. That said, they might still choose to train in a G2 because of the "lux" factor. It does look, feel and smell a lot nicer than a 22. But it won't help them with the transition to the two-bladed products they'll eventually own. Meanwhile, the guys who are actually wealthy enough to be buying a $2M USD machine, or more, are also wealthy enough to hire some young pilot to fly it for them for peanuts. So they are not looking to learn to fly.
That brings us to the "young person looking to make it as a helicopter pilot" category. This is the largest part of the market and in the US it's all about price in this regime. If you told this market they could save $10/hr by flying the R22 with the tattiest interior you better believe they'll be fighting over who gets to book that ship. So the G2 will make little if any inroads into that part of the market.
Finally we come to the most interesting part of the US market: the fatties (and some folks that are legitimately large, like The Rock
). And this being the US, where everything is super-sized, we do have them. Right now they have to train in the 44. But the G2 would be a good option for them given it's increased useful load over the 22, and it would be less expensive than the 44.
So what will the US G2 market look like? I predict it will consist of those who legitimately expect to jump right into a larger fenestron ship (a very tiny number), wealthy folks who just like the look/feel (a fair number, but not the largest US student demographic), and people of a certain size (a small number). Meanwhile the majority of the market will continue to be driven almost entirely by cost, and for that you cannot beat the R22. So we will see continued sales of the G2 in the US for a few years until it goes just as flat as the R22 sales figures, and R22s will still dominate the US training fleet.
P.S. Maff--the slagging is because before SFAR 73 took effect in the US, Robinsons were being crashed at a significant rate. Since SFAR 73 Robinson loss and fatality rates in the US have been commensurate with the US helicopter fleet as a whole, but there is an old guard who will never forget, and never let anyone else forget, either. That said, it is the lightest weight, lowest inertial helicopter, with the least safety margins. Nevertheless, even though it is typically flown by the least experienced pilots, it seems to do just fine safety-wise in the US. (since the late 90's, anyway). Outside of the US, particularly in certain countries, people continue to crash them with remarkable frequency. This also plays into people's attitudes towards them.
The real questions are what is that niche, and how big is it? Clearly it is a better choice if someone is going to know they are transitioning straight into a larger, fenestron equipped machine. I can only speak from a narrow, US based perspective on this, but that market is quite small. The rich guys I see coming in for lessons have their hearts set on a 44 or maybe a 66, possibly even a 505, but that's it. Like a lot of wealthy guys they only want to buy a new machine and would turn their nose up, right or wrong, at a used 120 or 130. That said, they might still choose to train in a G2 because of the "lux" factor. It does look, feel and smell a lot nicer than a 22. But it won't help them with the transition to the two-bladed products they'll eventually own. Meanwhile, the guys who are actually wealthy enough to be buying a $2M USD machine, or more, are also wealthy enough to hire some young pilot to fly it for them for peanuts. So they are not looking to learn to fly.
That brings us to the "young person looking to make it as a helicopter pilot" category. This is the largest part of the market and in the US it's all about price in this regime. If you told this market they could save $10/hr by flying the R22 with the tattiest interior you better believe they'll be fighting over who gets to book that ship. So the G2 will make little if any inroads into that part of the market.
Finally we come to the most interesting part of the US market: the fatties (and some folks that are legitimately large, like The Rock
). And this being the US, where everything is super-sized, we do have them. Right now they have to train in the 44. But the G2 would be a good option for them given it's increased useful load over the 22, and it would be less expensive than the 44.So what will the US G2 market look like? I predict it will consist of those who legitimately expect to jump right into a larger fenestron ship (a very tiny number), wealthy folks who just like the look/feel (a fair number, but not the largest US student demographic), and people of a certain size (a small number). Meanwhile the majority of the market will continue to be driven almost entirely by cost, and for that you cannot beat the R22. So we will see continued sales of the G2 in the US for a few years until it goes just as flat as the R22 sales figures, and R22s will still dominate the US training fleet.
P.S. Maff--the slagging is because before SFAR 73 took effect in the US, Robinsons were being crashed at a significant rate. Since SFAR 73 Robinson loss and fatality rates in the US have been commensurate with the US helicopter fleet as a whole, but there is an old guard who will never forget, and never let anyone else forget, either. That said, it is the lightest weight, lowest inertial helicopter, with the least safety margins. Nevertheless, even though it is typically flown by the least experienced pilots, it seems to do just fine safety-wise in the US. (since the late 90's, anyway). Outside of the US, particularly in certain countries, people continue to crash them with remarkable frequency. This also plays into people's attitudes towards them.
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To continue...now a 4 seat "G4" that priced out somewhere between a 44 and a 66/505 would be a real, serious contender for market share. That part of the market is hugely ripe for competition and change. To be really successful I think Guimbal would need to achieve nearly the performance spec's of a 66. And a blade fold kit should definitely be an option on Day 1. One of the best loved features of the two-bladed ships is the ability to store it in a small space. Keep it shorter than a 66, or as short as a 44, and have the blade fold kit available right away, and people will not have find new hangar space if they decide to "upgrade".
7's and 8's, the simple maths says the new 22 market seems to be in trouble while Guimbal continue to ship aircraft in this segment worldwide, as small as it may be.
This may be helped by the already large base of R22's that keep reincarnating minus normal attrition and Robinson's push to get people into 44's instead, not that the Cadet has done well. Neither of these trends will help the cost-sensitive hire and flyer as they will be stuck between two more premium products, but then trends aren't defined by that demographic, it is owners and operators that will choose the direction.
Robinson has a large section of private owners, people who don't just buy for cost reasons.
A 4-seater cabri (promising a better operational experience) with modern looks and feel may just corrode an important part of the private owner base.
Imagine how the hire and flyers would complain about having to rent one of those
wrt slagging, everyone has an opinion, you only have to look at the Bell 505 discussions, it's not unique to Robinson - but then no other manufacture has had as colourful a past, or indeed present.
This may be helped by the already large base of R22's that keep reincarnating minus normal attrition and Robinson's push to get people into 44's instead, not that the Cadet has done well. Neither of these trends will help the cost-sensitive hire and flyer as they will be stuck between two more premium products, but then trends aren't defined by that demographic, it is owners and operators that will choose the direction.
Robinson has a large section of private owners, people who don't just buy for cost reasons.
A 4-seater cabri (promising a better operational experience) with modern looks and feel may just corrode an important part of the private owner base.
Imagine how the hire and flyers would complain about having to rent one of those
wrt slagging, everyone has an opinion, you only have to look at the Bell 505 discussions, it's not unique to Robinson - but then no other manufacture has had as colourful a past, or indeed present.
Speaking as someone who has thought a lot about what helicopter to buy... though sadly not quite there yet financially, and not sure I'd really buy one anyway (the economics of owning a private heli for recreational flying are truly awful).
All but one of my ~150 heli hours are in R44s, the other hour in a G2. I really enjoyed flying the G2 and I'm not super happy with the teetering rotor in the R44. But on balance if I did buy one, I think it would be the R44, for the extra seats and because with the hydraulics it is easier to fly.
Now if there really was a G4, that would be a different story - especially if it had hydraulics. I don't think the extra initial cost would be a big factor, especially since for low-time flying the time-based overhaul limit on the R44 would kick in long before the hours limit did - making the R44 a lot more expensive than it initially appears.
All but one of my ~150 heli hours are in R44s, the other hour in a G2. I really enjoyed flying the G2 and I'm not super happy with the teetering rotor in the R44. But on balance if I did buy one, I think it would be the R44, for the extra seats and because with the hydraulics it is easier to fly.
Now if there really was a G4, that would be a different story - especially if it had hydraulics. I don't think the extra initial cost would be a big factor, especially since for low-time flying the time-based overhaul limit on the R44 would kick in long before the hours limit did - making the R44 a lot more expensive than it initially appears.
Chief Bottle Washer
Any more and you will be moderated, and that will include all your previous posts on this thread.
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In the same way that persistent disparaging of Robinson products by deliberately mis-spelling the name leads to post moderation, you have been tolerated for long enough with your abuse of the name Guimbal.
Any more and you will be moderated, and that will include all your previous posts on this thread.
Any more and you will be moderated, and that will include all your previous posts on this thread.
Go ahead and "moderate" me snowflake!