Guimbal Cabri G2
many of those that operate on a Robbie have little experience on anything else as reference.
Give the 22 it's due, but as long as some of the fanatics continue to believe it is the best thing since sliced bread they will never be prepared to accept any criticism.
Sitting in a R22 or a 44 for a whole working day isn't fun. It hurts. So do the seats in a JetRanger after an hour.
The Cabri was targeted at those that intend flying larger aircraft with a conventional control layout, particularly airbus, providing fenestron experience.
The same discussion came up with the side controllers in the Corvalis and the Cirrus. It wasn't a problem.
In my experience, the brain does not care where the hand is, as long as the movement is more or less the same.
On the other hand, if Frank did not see the training market when he designed the R22, he wasn't seeing very far. Yes, during that time there where tons of ex army pilots. Not all of them wanted to continue flying. Not all of them would be able to buy a R22. And on what would his potential customers get their training? H300? Bell 47? No, if possible on the R22. I have a constantly nagging feeling, that Frank isn't telling us the whole story about his market idea. On the other hand, when he proposed his idea to his employer, they did not see a market either. But hindsight is 20/20.
The Cabri is one good training and personal helicopter, but Bruno Guimbal, being much younger than Frank, is standing on the shoulders of the other geniuses. The Cabri would not be as good as it is, weren't it for Frank Robinsons products (and the others, too, but Bruno's target is the R22 market, because the rest is just not worth it).
But there is one chance that things might change in the not too far future. The FAA certification process is being rewritten. It might be possible, that the certification of helicopters of the size of the R22 and the Cabri becomes much easier. Who knows, Robinson might be working on something even better.
Now back to the Cabri, which, we all can agree, is the better helicopter in probably every aspect, as is the Golf 7 compared to the Golf 1 (or the R22 A to the R22 Beta II).
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It's a classic chicken and egg problem. It remains to be seen if the marketplace considers the Cabri sufficiently better to displace a well established, well understood, and, one hopes, well run Robinson training ecosystem, at least in the US. However, it would not be unreasonable to expect that schools operating say three or four R22s might not replace one of them with a Cabri. That way the more well-heeled might have that choice, and it certainly seems reasonable that if they were keeping that many R22s sufficiently busy they might conceivably keep two R22s and a single Cabri equally busy. But that may be an overly simple supposition on my part when you consider that most such schools are already operating one or two R44s as well. Maybe the Cabri replaces one of the R44s, instead?
Great discussion. We'll know in another ten years or so how well the Cabri is doing in the US training market
Butters
Your examiner shouldnt be an examiner if in a test he requires you to do a vertical Take off to 100 ft. You obviously didnt bother to read my post properly did you. I was comparing 2 aircraft at the time, in the late 1980's YES the late 1980's please read the post.
Coming back to your beloved Beta11. Please do a vertical again to 100 ft and say to the examiner practice engine failure 3 2 1 go and see what he says. Oh yes by the way, why do we have to give that warning only in a Robinson product, in no other helicopter when you are examined ? Yes the Beta 2 is better than an Alpha or a Beta doesn't mean it is God's gift to the helicopter world as you seem to think. It has its place
Your examiner shouldnt be an examiner if in a test he requires you to do a vertical Take off to 100 ft. You obviously didnt bother to read my post properly did you. I was comparing 2 aircraft at the time, in the late 1980's YES the late 1980's please read the post.
Coming back to your beloved Beta11. Please do a vertical again to 100 ft and say to the examiner practice engine failure 3 2 1 go and see what he says. Oh yes by the way, why do we have to give that warning only in a Robinson product, in no other helicopter when you are examined ? Yes the Beta 2 is better than an Alpha or a Beta doesn't mean it is God's gift to the helicopter world as you seem to think. It has its place
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Hey butters, what’s the real operating cost of an R22? I mean the real cost, not what Robinson thinks it might be. You’ll find it surprising. Then do the same on the G2. You’ll be very surprised indeed.
Then come back to us about basic economics,
As for dissing the R22, I’m happy to diss the shortcomings of any product, praise it too, but too many of my friends have died in Robinsons for me to feel good about them, even though the course of my career means I’m about to get into one.
Then come back to us about basic economics,
As for dissing the R22, I’m happy to diss the shortcomings of any product, praise it too, but too many of my friends have died in Robinsons for me to feel good about them, even though the course of my career means I’m about to get into one.
Real costs over 5-10years
Why is everyone focusing just on the upfront purchase costs ONLY? 
You've gotta operate these bucket of bolts too You know! Sure the r22 Plasticine wonder is 100k cheaper to buy than the Tonka tuff big G, but You are all forgetting that every 2,200 hrs or less You gotta fully rebuild the 22 (except the boom, that's every second rebuild)
at almost a new ones price 
if You factor that into the hourly rate then the real cost of running a 22 is much, much higher than the big G is 
So if it's about the money then the big G is the winner overall
You gotta ask Yourself what $$$ corners are being cut here to make the 22 so cheap to rent when they are far more expensive to run than the big G
Be Happy
You've gotta operate these bucket of bolts too You know! Sure the r22 Plasticine wonder is 100k cheaper to buy than the Tonka tuff big G, but You are all forgetting that every 2,200 hrs or less You gotta fully rebuild the 22 (except the boom, that's every second rebuild)
at almost a new ones price if You factor that into the hourly rate then the real cost of running a 22 is much, much higher than the big G is So if it's about the money then the big G is the winner overall
You gotta ask Yourself what $$$ corners are being cut here to make the 22 so cheap to rent when they are far more expensive to run than the big G
Be Happy
nigel
If you saw half of what I see as an examiner I have a duty of care to try and improve how people operate their machines. Now for an examiner to make a novice pilot do a vertical take off to 100 ft is well I will leave it to you !!!!!!
Butters please do me a favour and go read the height velocity curve, when I first started it was called the dead man's curve for good reason. Yes lots of us operate in it , I do all the time doing VR work. But it i is to be avoided, you appear to have a very cavalier attitude to flying. Please could you go back to your examiner do a 100 ft vertical and get him to show you what to do if the donk stops, you have a mag failure, leading plugs, oiling plugs and all the other things that got wrong with the sh1t Lycoming engine ( and yes I fly them in a 300 ) Please please go to 100 ft and shut the throttle on him and watch his face for the couple of seconds you have before you are taken away in a 7 ft long wooden box
If you saw half of what I see as an examiner I have a duty of care to try and improve how people operate their machines. Now for an examiner to make a novice pilot do a vertical take off to 100 ft is well I will leave it to you !!!!!!
Butters please do me a favour and go read the height velocity curve, when I first started it was called the dead man's curve for good reason. Yes lots of us operate in it , I do all the time doing VR work. But it i is to be avoided, you appear to have a very cavalier attitude to flying. Please could you go back to your examiner do a 100 ft vertical and get him to show you what to do if the donk stops, you have a mag failure, leading plugs, oiling plugs and all the other things that got wrong with the sh1t Lycoming engine ( and yes I fly them in a 300 ) Please please go to 100 ft and shut the throttle on him and watch his face for the couple of seconds you have before you are taken away in a 7 ft long wooden box
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You’re getting there butters, keep working at it and you’ll see through the smoke and mirrors.
Hint; ask the people who have both which one they’re likely to keep. Depending on how recently they acquired their Cabri, the answer may be “not sure, we’ll see how it goes” or it may be “when we can get more Cabri, the 22s will go”. Bear in mind that the Cabri is fairly new to the US. The truth will out in a few short years as it has in other parts of the world.
Hint; ask the people who have both which one they’re likely to keep. Depending on how recently they acquired their Cabri, the answer may be “not sure, we’ll see how it goes” or it may be “when we can get more Cabri, the 22s will go”. Bear in mind that the Cabri is fairly new to the US. The truth will out in a few short years as it has in other parts of the world.
Well, with every school from whom I've rented, when their 22's time out for rebuild, they disappear and I never see them again. I don't know anything about lease agreements, but it seems they just swap out the used up 22's for another one?
I've flown around thirty-five 22's over the years, but only two were brand spanking new. So maybe that's where the corners are cut?
I've flown around thirty-five 22's over the years, but only two were brand spanking new. So maybe that's where the corners are cut?
Those schools that are more substantial and use plenty of hours can invest in a new aircraft and gain the benefits from the improved maintenance schedule and overall lower running costs.
If Robinson ever try produce a new generation 22 (highly unlikely), or move away from that terrible rotor design, the modern certification costs are likely to narrow the gap to the Cabri which would spell the end for the 22.
Last edited by Bell_ringer; 24th May 2018 at 05:50. Reason: grammar gremlins
One thing is for certain, if Bruno is targeting the R22, he doesn't really "get" basic economics!
Economics happen to be not very scientific and a lot of guesswork. It worked out for Robinson, but not as he expected. It did not work out for a lot of other start-ups and sometimes people just have a very vague idea about the market and still make it.
Actually, thinking about it, today Guimbal might not look only at the R22 market anymore, but at the Cadet market. The R22s production will stop sometime and I suppose Robinson does not want give away the market share, but the Cadet does not seem to be the solution the market wants. Downgrading something to make it cheaper seldom works (ask Apple). I don't think Robinson has an option other than building a completely new training helicopter to replace the R22, if it wants to stay in this market. Who knows, they probably are happy with just the R44 and the R66, leaving the training market to Guimbal, whos G2 could with higher production rates, which will lower the effective price, become the winner.
If you don't factor in somehow the rebuild cost to your hourly rate, your going broke. There is no way, you don't pay for the rebuild in some way. Offer and demand in the used market will only offset so much of the rebuild cost. There are some operators who see themselves as very clever by trading Robinsons around (some are, some are not). It does make sense, if you don't want your maintenance department rebuilding the ships, because it is either too small or has better things to do. On the other hand, some companies make money by doing only rebuilds, because they don't make money flying the things. And if you streamline your processes the rebuild will be less expensive for the operators. The factory rebuild business of Robinson is not what it once was. Most Robinsons are now rebuild by others. Buy a kit and you are good to go.
When the R22 was designed, the fixed cost of the factory rebuild and the 2000 hour limit, where applauded in the market, because it made calculating the hourly cost so much easier, than with the old designs, where things had to be replaced in much less orderly fashion. Old ships like the 47 where always a nightmare in this respect, because you never knew, when to replace something for too much wear and tear and Bell did not make it any easier by rising prices constantly. That today we would rather want "on condition" parts, is obvious, but this can have its own stumbling blocks. But almost 50 years ago, "on condition" was rarely seen on helicopters and wasn't an option for Robinson, so he took the next best solution, give everything the same times - same as the engine - and a fixed price (well, more or less) for the rebuild. I think, this was a big part of the success of the R22. Now it was possible to buy a new inexpensive helicopter and run a business without many maintenance nightmares and make it through the first few difficult years. If you don't like Robinsons thinking, good for you, but many helicopter companies just use them and make money doing it. And for the widow-maker argument, AFIAK the accident rate of the R22 isn't the worst in the business even compared with fixed wing (comparing apples with apples) and the R44 had an excellent accident rate from the beginning. The Cabris rate is hard to beat, since there wasn't (again AFIAK) a single fatal accident ... yet.
I never had an examiner, nor instructors doing biannuals nor the instructors at the Robinson Safety Course doing 1 2 3. But one can feel what is coming, when the throttle is turning suddenly or even when the collective gets heavier or the examiners hand is moving stealthily toward the collective.
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Why is everyone focusing just on the upfront purchase costs ONLY?
You've gotta operate these bucket of bolts too You know! Sure the r22 Plasticine wonder is 100k cheaper to buy than the Tonka tuff big G, but You are all forgetting that every 2,200 hrs or less You gotta fully rebuild the 22 (except the boom, that's every second rebuild) at almost a new ones price if You factor that into the hourly rate then the real cost of running a 22 is much, much higher than the big G is
So if it's about the money then the big G is the winner overall
You gotta ask Yourself what $$$ corners are being cut here to make the 22 so cheap to rent when they are far more expensive to run than the big G
You've gotta operate these bucket of bolts too You know! Sure the r22 Plasticine wonder is 100k cheaper to buy than the Tonka tuff big G, but You are all forgetting that every 2,200 hrs or less You gotta fully rebuild the 22 (except the boom, that's every second rebuild)
at almost a new ones price if You factor that into the hourly rate then the real cost of running a 22 is much, much higher than the big G is So if it's about the money then the big G is the winner overall
You gotta ask Yourself what $$$ corners are being cut here to make the 22 so cheap to rent when they are far more expensive to run than the big G
That $250/hr for an R22 easily covers all direct and indirect operating costs, including all fuel, oil, insurance, periodic maintenance, overhauls (yes, even the Big One), rebuilds, etc., etc., and provides a reasonable profit, as well. This requires, of course, that the ship is flying at least 500 hours a year or so such that the insurance is properly amortized, and that the operation in question qualifies for reasonable insurance rates. But these issues are the same for all helicopters, and familiar to all helicopter owners/operators, or at least should be. Similarly, the typical rate for an R44 of $450/hr works the same, and provides a profit close to $150/hr for a busy ship. As an owner of an R44, I can absolutely assure you this is the case.
As for what happens to old R22s, as far as I know the workhorses that belong to schools are overhauled in accordance with the maintenance manuals and keep on flying. I'm not aware of any sketchy stuff going on, at least not in this neck of the woods. The school I am associated with is also a Robinson dealer and maintenance organization and they overhaul timed out ships on a regular basis. I've watched the overhaul process and flown 22's both before and after their overhauls. No fuss, no muss, the system works, and provides a measure of predictability to maintenance costs far beyond that of other helicopters and still keeps operating costs lower than any other helicopter. The only downside is that one needs to bank those dollars and not be tempted to spend them prior to the Big Overhaul. You can predict your cash flow requirements much more easily with a Robinson, but you can also much more easily find yourself short of cash when the overhaul comes due if you don't exercise some appropriate fiscal restraint. When the latter problem occurs that's where you find good deals on timed out ships, which are subsequently purchased, properly overhauled by smarter operators. and put back to work.
G2 close encounter with drone in CH
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...30630772400128
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...30630772400128
Dear friends, today a drone which was flying within the 5km radius around the airport of Locarno hit one of our Helicopters, damaging heavily one of the main rotor blades. The pilot took immediate action to reduce forward speed and landed just 2 minutes later at the Airfield. The drone was around 750g, and thankfully to the rapid response of the Cantonal Police the drone pilot could be found and identified. It seems the Drone Pilot was flying at around 3000 Ft AMSL (corresponding to around 1500 Ft AGL) in FPV (First Person View, looking to the camera screen, but not directly to the drone) mode, and did not hear the Cabri helicopter arriving neither realized the collision.
Speed was around 90 kts, hit on the forward blade so I estimate impact speed around 700km/h. Vibrations as usual after blade impact.
Flimsy.........sure is!
VF you are so totally off base here, and I'm really surprised that that is the case, because I have to believe that your economic savvy is just as good as everything else you do. I realize that some folks carry a lot of emotion with respect to Robinson helicopters, and that you lost someone close to you in a Robinson, but that in no way means that the economics of operating Robinsons violate the laws of physics, or sanity. Bottom line up front: the operating costs of an R22 are absolutely, positively and unambiguously lower than a G2, by some $125/hr, and that includes profit. This assumes, of course, that the average US hourly rate for a G2 of approx. $375 is set with the same degree of care that the average hourly rate for an R22 of $250 is set.
That $250/hr for an R22 easily covers all direct and indirect operating costs, including all fuel, oil, insurance, periodic maintenance, overhauls (yes, even the Big One), rebuilds, etc., etc., and provides a reasonable profit, as well. This requires, of course, that the ship is flying at least 500 hours a year or so such that the insurance is properly amortized, and that the operation in question qualifies for reasonable insurance rates. But these issues are the same for all helicopters, and familiar to all helicopter owners/operators, or at least should be. Similarly, the typical rate for an R44 of $450/hr works the same, and provides a profit close to $150/hr for a busy ship. As an owner of an R44, I can absolutely assure you this is the case.
As for what happens to old R22s, as far as I know the workhorses that belong to schools are overhauled in accordance with the maintenance manuals and keep on flying. I'm not aware of any sketchy stuff going on, at least not in this neck of the woods. The school I am associated with is also a Robinson dealer and maintenance organization and they overhaul timed out ships on a regular basis. I've watched the overhaul process and flown 22's both before and after their overhauls. No fuss, no muss, the system works, and provides a measure of predictability to maintenance costs far beyond that of other helicopters and still keeps operating costs lower than any other helicopter. The only downside is that one needs to bank those dollars and not be tempted to spend them prior to the Big Overhaul. You can predict your cash flow requirements much more easily with a Robinson, but you can also much more easily find yourself short of cash when the overhaul comes due if you don't exercise some appropriate fiscal restraint. When the latter problem occurs that's where you find good deals on timed out ships, which are subsequently purchased, properly overhauled by smarter operators. and put back to work.
That $250/hr for an R22 easily covers all direct and indirect operating costs, including all fuel, oil, insurance, periodic maintenance, overhauls (yes, even the Big One), rebuilds, etc., etc., and provides a reasonable profit, as well. This requires, of course, that the ship is flying at least 500 hours a year or so such that the insurance is properly amortized, and that the operation in question qualifies for reasonable insurance rates. But these issues are the same for all helicopters, and familiar to all helicopter owners/operators, or at least should be. Similarly, the typical rate for an R44 of $450/hr works the same, and provides a profit close to $150/hr for a busy ship. As an owner of an R44, I can absolutely assure you this is the case.
As for what happens to old R22s, as far as I know the workhorses that belong to schools are overhauled in accordance with the maintenance manuals and keep on flying. I'm not aware of any sketchy stuff going on, at least not in this neck of the woods. The school I am associated with is also a Robinson dealer and maintenance organization and they overhaul timed out ships on a regular basis. I've watched the overhaul process and flown 22's both before and after their overhauls. No fuss, no muss, the system works, and provides a measure of predictability to maintenance costs far beyond that of other helicopters and still keeps operating costs lower than any other helicopter. The only downside is that one needs to bank those dollars and not be tempted to spend them prior to the Big Overhaul. You can predict your cash flow requirements much more easily with a Robinson, but you can also much more easily find yourself short of cash when the overhaul comes due if you don't exercise some appropriate fiscal restraint. When the latter problem occurs that's where you find good deals on timed out ships, which are subsequently purchased, properly overhauled by smarter operators. and put back to work.
(no offense intended) If You owned & operated one personally & covered all the real costs then You'd know, but, only then. I know a few private owners that are covering all the real costs & it ain't anywhere as cheap as what You think! The primary reason the Robbo is so popular is because of the purchase price, that's it, end of story You really think Frank had some extra unique magic dust in his pockets when he created the cheapest machine on Earth? It's a numbers game & all numbers are basically equal, unless pixi dust is replacing the magic dust 
Be Happy; keep it in the green & do everything into wind, except pee
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If You owned & operated one personally & covered all the real costs then You'd know, but, only then. I know a few private owners that are covering all the real costs & it ain't anywhere as cheap as what You think!
The primary reason the Robbo is so popular is because of the purchase price, that's it, end of story You really think Frank had some extra unique magic dust in his pockets when he created the cheapest machine on Earth? It's a numbers game & all numbers are basically equal, unless pixi dust is replacing the magic dust
You really think Frank had some extra unique magic dust in his pockets when he created the cheapest machine on Earth? It's a numbers game & all numbers are basically equal, unless pixi dust is replacing the magic dust
Be Happy; keep it in the green & do everything into wind, except pee
Flimsy.........sure is!
G'day aa777888.....great to hear Brother, enjoy the ride! Do avoid any & all turbulence as that head is designed to self destruct & could never today pass a certification process the way it did when it did! Like to see it do the 'lamp post' test the way a G2 had too
So Frank created magic by cutting corners, that is obvious. Otherwise his numbers would stack up similar to the others. There are no secrets there
Happy Landings
So Frank created magic by cutting corners, that is obvious. Otherwise his numbers would stack up similar to the others. There are no secrets there
Happy Landings
Last edited by Vertical Freedom; 29th May 2018 at 12:09.
The G2 seems to be very popular in Canada with BC Helicopters. Their commercial courses are booked up until 2019. I'm looking to get my Canadian CPL completed this year and thus wanted to do it in the Cabri. It's either wait a year or do it on the 44 with Chinook this year.
