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What is your helicopter carbon footprint?

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What is your helicopter carbon footprint?

Old 12th Feb 2008, 04:54
  #141 (permalink)  
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Sorry, I really can't take your advice to "STFU", must be awful when people don't accept all this bollocks without questioning it.

The FOE paper is full of circular references to all the previously published FOE opinion. Hardly an independent source of "facts"?

I do like the concept of getting my fuel from a different source, but I do need fuel for my lifestyle and livelihood, so until you come up with with a viable alternative, the whole discussion is really quite pointless. That is perhaps my biggest argument against the political bandwagon that is currently the backbone for change. Full of doom, but short on options.

The future absolutely lies in a different technology, but unfortunately that viable technology is some way out in the distance.

Ironically, one of my closest friends is a leader in the biofuel industry, I'm sure he'll be more interested than me in reading the FOE propaganda - now that this is deemed equally bad, or even worse then the options. Problem is, I like the places and people where these crops originate, better than some of the current regular fuel sources!

Oh well, back to the nuclear age?
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 10:16
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry, I really can't take your advice to "STFU"
(Re-)read the post, it was a request and it was based on comments around London's H4 heliroute gaining a hard surface. Drawing wide ranging consequences (based on no cited, reviewed research, consensus or otherwise) is akin to deciding the next ice age has occurred when your garden's bird bath unusually freezes over.

On the subject of 'a bit of cold' and 'can the humans affect the planet' (note can not did), I think this is one of the most curious pieces of recent research:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4755328.stm

the FOE propaganda - now that this is deemed equally bad
(re: biofuels)

Not equally, it's simply a matter of doing the accounting from a carbon (equivalence) point of view and if that makes sense, then considering the any other environmental and economic (i.e. 'agflation') issues. Government needs to be careful about distortions that cause with subsidies, but it's interesting that FOE do support some level of ROCs for biomass co-firing so they are not universally against anything, afaik.

I do like the concept of getting my fuel from a different source, but I do need fuel for my lifestyle and livelihood, so until you come up with with a viable alternative, the whole discussion is really quite pointless.
I think this is another example of how the aviation industry keeps missing the point. The problem, if one acknowledges there is one, is about the sum of all activities. Aviation is simply one business that has a high dependency on liquid fuels - it really is that simple (ignoring contrails which may turn out to be an important tweaking factor). Other industries have their own poor stories on energy efficiency and waste that simply aren't discussed in the mainstream.

There are plenty of easy areas where an individual consumer can reduce their energy consumption. I certainly have no idea how I would make an independent decision about car replacement to a more fuel efficient model. For some issues this is more easily calculable, for example domestic lightbulb replacement with CFLs. One organisation's view of the maths:

http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...tbulbs-q-and-a
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Old 25th Feb 2008, 15:58
  #143 (permalink)  
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A dose of reality in the midst of global warming religious fervor:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/...html?id=332289
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Old 30th May 2008, 09:29
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Other industries have their own poor stories on energy efficiency and waste that simply aren't discussed in the mainstream.
The Economist has rumbled one of them:

The internet could become as ungreen as aviation. A self-serving solution beckons
Computing's environmental cost | Buy our stuff, save the planet | The Economist

More data, more disagreement on counting/accounting:

BBC NEWS | Technology | 'Carbon cost' of Google revealed

Last edited by FairWeatherFlyer; 12th Jan 2009 at 13:19. Reason: additional url on data centre and internet usage for high performance services
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Old 30th May 2008, 12:33
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Seeing as Mankind adds but 3.5% to Mother Nature's annual total and aircraft are a miniscule fraction of that, even if all rotaries were grounded not one Greenie could tell the difference.

Carbon Claptrap Trading is a FRAUD perpetrated by the Lefties/Greenies/Greedies [like Al Gore, who's Carbon Footprint is bigger than Jack of the Beanstalk's Giant].

PS CO2 is .035% of atmospheric gases and Martian CO2 is 20 times our level and yet Mars' average temperature is -70ºC!

Last edited by aviate1138; 30th May 2008 at 12:34. Reason: typo
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Old 15th Sep 2008, 11:13
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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After that thorough evaluation of emissions trading, back to efficiency, diesel is back in fashion and the EC120 gets a mention:

Diesel-powered flight | Whirlybirds go green | Economist.com

ROTOR on line - A publication of Eurocopter - Clean Sky
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Old 15th Sep 2008, 11:46
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This BBC series is well worth watching:

BBC | Topics | Climate Change

Dr Iain Stewert presents a well informed and impartial overview of the debate.

Episode I
BBC - BBC Two Programmes - Earth: The Climate Wars, The Battle Begins

Episode II
BBC - BBC Two Programmes - Earth: The Climate Wars, Fightback


The planet is hotter than any time in history: undisputed fact.

CO2 is higher than at any time in history: undisputed fact.

The model of CO2 --> Global warming is now the subject of debate.

Frankly, i'd be terrified if i thought that every caution light in a helicopter was disputed the way CO2 has been on this thread.
You either play it safe or accept that in Russian Roulette you will eventually loose...
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Old 15th Feb 2009, 10:50
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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How Green Are We?

Thanks to some help from other members of this forum (JT!) I purchased my Jetranger in October last year and loving every minute of it.

Last night one of my mates said "ahhh so your one of those who fly the things polluting the planet!", I went to reply then realised I didn't know how green our piston and turbines are??? So I said "get back to you on that!"

Any stats out there to show how much C02 we chuck into the sky compared to the same journey by car? Would be good to see Piston vs Turbine as well?

Not expecting to, but would love to prove him wrong!

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Old 15th Feb 2009, 12:13
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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2008 was the year man-made global warming was disproved - Telegraph

Powerful Documentary Trounces Man-Made Warming Hoax

Last edited by GoodGrief; 15th Feb 2009 at 12:29.
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Old 15th Feb 2009, 12:14
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In September 2006 Dutch Environment Secretary Van Geel was called on by the Socialist Party to answer parliamentary questions on the inter-urban helicopter service that Helinet and Connexxion wish to operate. Question no. 3 concerned the environmental performance of helicopter transport compared with more conventional modes. CE Delft was called on by the environment ministry to assist in answering the question: How do emissions from helicopter transport compare with those of other forms of transport like car, train and aircraft on a trip from Amsterdam to Brussels?

The question was addressed from the perspective of a business traveller going from Amsterdam to Brussels, i.e. considering the means of transport currently available to such travellers. For each of these, ranges were estimated for CO2 and NOx emissions. These depend on the following factors:
  • fuel conversion efficiency;
  • detour factor;
  • upstream and downstream transport links.
The conclusions were as follows:
  • Helicopter emissions exceed those of other modes of transport.
  • Compared with the journey by diesel car, emissions are about a factor 3 to 5 higher. There is less difference compared with air travel, but more compared with rail.
  • Occupancy levels are a significant factor, particularly when it comes to smaller vehicles like cars and helicopters.
The translated version from dutch to english (the graphs are missing which can be seen in original report, url below)

Translated version of http://www.ce.nl/pdf/06_4375_51.pdf=


The original version


http://www.ce.nl/pdf/06_4375_51.pdf
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Old 15th Feb 2009, 12:24
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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I have had similar conversations in the past.

Sadly, the answer that "I would like to offer them my personal thanks for reducing their emissions so that I can make compensating increases" is the best way to manage it.

If it goes any further, then a simple statement that as far as it's concerned I don't really give a sh*t is the only way to end a largely unwinnable position

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Old 15th Feb 2009, 13:29
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Any stats out there to show how much C02 we chuck into the sky compared to the same journey by car?
That's a trivial calculation, at least in terms of fuel, distances and PAX. The thread is entitled 'how green are we' which is a rather more encompassing question than a pure C02 one. On just the CO2 emissions front, should a portion of the engineer's job related emissions be included for your maintenance?

And if your friend has an electric car, try working out how 'green' the electricity is that fuels it. That's a surprisingly difficult task given how the UK market is rigged and questions of additionality,

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/report...riffs_2004.pdf

If you to use some distraction in the debate, tell him/her you only bought it because the previous owner flew it a lot and you're flying it a lot less

(A small chap who looks like a reject from a 70s cop show commented on a BBC2 documentary earlier this evening that the a380 is more fuel efficient than a car per person - clearly time to upgrade your B206! Oh, and Tesco are selling own-brand/GE CFL bulbs of many types for 88p if you buy three.)

Last edited by FairWeatherFlyer; 15th Feb 2009 at 21:34. Reason: additional info
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Old 15th Feb 2009, 13:56
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks all

I am going to go with a "who will be poor sod who has to hover over and winch polar bears when they are balancing on a 2m piece of ice? Not you Mr Plank"

Damn, those stats aren't good reading! Wish I never asked.....
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Old 15th Feb 2009, 16:41
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hover over and winch polar bears when they are balancing on a 2m piece of ice? Not you Mr Plank"
Don't worry about the Polar Bear, the Sabre Tooth Tiger went for the same reasons that the Polar Bear will irrespective of the ice cap.

Damn, those stats aren't good reading!
Perhaps not but there is a school of thought that specifies global warming first started when man started farming and chopping trees for wood. It makes no difference, there is little you or I can do about it - or the whole race within 10 lifetimes - that will change the course mother nature takes us. We certainly cannot reverse anything and nor do we have the knowledge or intellectual ability to grasp the whole issue in its entirety. So don't you fret just fly safely.

Best Wishes
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Old 15th Feb 2009, 16:50
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Total green is the only way to settle it - the cost for a mile of road (2M?) is almost all enegry and people cost - tarmac, machines, steel for the machines, etc. - this balances against the greater fuel flow of the helo, and I would bet on the lesser flown routes, the helo wins. Furthermore, building a bridge to an oil rig is really an environmental disaster>

The relative green-ness of a helo is quite nice, thank you. And a helo is lot more fun than a bull dozer is to drive.
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Old 15th Feb 2009, 18:12
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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How Green am I?...At 16-20 gallons for a Raven 2, 25-30 for a 206, 120 litres for a 120 and 175 litres for FXII/B2...I would think the answer to that would be "not very bloody much!" But then again try and find a cheaper way of moving bags, moving a drill, mountain rescue, or save yourself time getting across a city. I'll drive a Hybrid if I have to but leave my chopper alone!
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 00:12
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We are witnessing the beginning of the end of mankind as we know it - get used to this idea!
This sounds like the spirit from the 1940s!

or the whole race within 10 lifetimes - that will change the course mother nature takes us.
Even at the Alfie end of the spectrum, 10 lifetimes is highly likely to deliver commerically viable nuclear fusion. The issue is dealing with the economic consequences of the interm and it looks like not everyone wants to board Disaster Area's spaceship,

Climate bill needed to 'save our planet,' says Obama - NYTimes.com
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 06:05
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at a pretty certificate, framed and proudly mounted in a position of maximum visual impact (Toilet door). A carbon neutral B206 costs 312 native trees.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 12:16
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(Sensing a profitable opportunity here....)

I can salve your guilt by planting a tree for you to offset your carbon emissions. I can send you annual photo, and an estimate of your tree's mass (and hence carbon captured).

Guilt-free flying.

If you fly more often, you can buy two trees!!!

Any takers??????
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 12:34
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Ramen,

Have you ever driven a Bull Dozer?

I got to operate a CAT D-10R one time.....second in size only to their D-11R...and it is a real hoot!

More importantly....the seat was really comfy, heated, cab was sound insulated and air-conditioned....unlike any helicopter made yet!

Funny thing about the "Greeners" of this world....not one of them admits to the oil platforms collateral benefit of being fish habitats. The fish love them! It is the "Greeners" that hate them.
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