Autopilot question
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Autopilot question
Hello rotorheads.
It just occured to me to ask a perhaps blindingly obvious question...
Do helicopters have autopilot?
I know nothing about nothing about helicopters, but I would like to know the answer nonetheless.
Thanks!
It just occured to me to ask a perhaps blindingly obvious question...
Do helicopters have autopilot?
I know nothing about nothing about helicopters, but I would like to know the answer nonetheless.
Thanks!
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Welcome to the Professional Pilots Rumour Network
A quick search on google would reveal your answer and probably stop you getting the barrage of abuse that such a dumb question from a professional pilot is about to receive.
A quick search on google would reveal your answer and probably stop you getting the barrage of abuse that such a dumb question from a professional pilot is about to receive.
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If you cant ask a simple question without getting abuse, pprune must be a pretty crummy neighborhood.
Yes, the top of the line helos have autopilots that rival those of airliners, and the SAR helos are even more sophisticated, with auto-hover and precise hover position control.
Yes, the top of the line helos have autopilots that rival those of airliners, and the SAR helos are even more sophisticated, with auto-hover and precise hover position control.
There are no limits
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Some helicopters have nothing.
Some helicopters have a Stick Trim
Some helicopters have Stability Augmentation Systems
Some helicopters have Autopilots
Some helicopters have Flight Directors
Some helicopters have Flight Management Systems
Suggest you google these terms to find out a lot more about them. Enjoy!
Some helicopters have a Stick Trim
Some helicopters have Stability Augmentation Systems
Some helicopters have Autopilots
Some helicopters have Flight Directors
Some helicopters have Flight Management Systems
Suggest you google these terms to find out a lot more about them. Enjoy!
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Non-JAR ATPLs in Europe vs JAR ATPLs in Canada
Recent heated posts in a Job Advertisement site (see http://www.aeroads.ca/cgi-bin/employment/search.cgi ) seem to indicate that it is much easier for JAR licensed ATPL pilots to convert their license to a Canadian ATPL license and then find work in Canada as opposed to non-JAR licensed pilots (read Canadians and Americans) converting to JAR licenses and finding work in Europe. I agree that a job website is not the place to discuss this and thought PPrune would be. Anybody out there with first hand experience and willing to comment on their experiences?
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Tonic Please - thanks for your PM calling me a grumpy git...I tend to agree 
It is infinately boring for me and others when an incredibly stupid question is asked, and yes it makes me grumpy...
I could understand it if you didn't have internet access so couldn't research answers to your questions first but you do otherwise you wouldn't be on pprune.
And now my rantings have made it to the top of the forum which will distract from good topics on rotorheads
Off to make a strong brew...
It is infinately boring for me and others when an incredibly stupid question is asked, and yes it makes me grumpy...
I could understand it if you didn't have internet access so couldn't research answers to your questions first but you do otherwise you wouldn't be on pprune.
And now my rantings have made it to the top of the forum which will distract from good topics on rotorheads
Off to make a strong brew...
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Silly questions
It is infinately boring for me and others when an incredibly stupid question is asked.......
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TRC - Good point! That surely tops the dumb question list..?
Where better to ask a helicopter related question than a helicopter pilot forum?
If you think the question is dumb, just ignore it and move on. There's no need to give the guy a hard time...
PR
Where better to ask a helicopter related question than a helicopter pilot forum?
If you think the question is dumb, just ignore it and move on. There's no need to give the guy a hard time...
PR
Well I think its a perfectly reasonable question. Its a question any beginner pilot might ask (OK TP is not a pilot but so what) and an area often misunderstood by non-heli pilots, and even by pilots like WhatLimits who quotes several items of equipment that are not autopilots (Stick trim, flight directors, FMSs).
What is often misunderstood is that with suitably equipped helicopters, the autopilot is normally engaged some time before takeoff and not disengaged until after landing or perhaps until shutdown, unlike fixed-wing where
the autopilot is only engaged when the pilot wants to take his hands/feet off the controls in flight.
This is because of the inherent instability of a helicopter versus a plank (fixed-wing to you!). The most basic autopilot has SAS (stability augmentation system) whereby the system makes control inputs to resist rates of pitch, roll or yaw, thereby giving a feeling of artificial stability. It could be argued that even this is not an autopilot because it does not allow the aircraft to be flown hands/feet off - the aircraft will still want to fall over, just more slowly than it would without the SAS. When the pilot is flying hands-on, SAS mode is there to make the aircraft more stable. In large helis, if SAS is not working this would be considered a significant failure especially in cloud.
The next level of autopilot (sometimes called ASE - automatic stability equipment) comes into effect when the pilot lets go of the controls. It has attitude retention, ie the aircraft can be trimmed to a desired attitude (in terms of pitch and roll), which it will try to retain, and usually these have some sort of heading hold on the yaw control when bank angle is near zero and/or feet are off the pedals.
Then the pilot can select what are what are called the "upper modes" - such things as pressure altitude hold, radio altitude hold, IAS hold, selected heading hold, coupling to Area Nav (FMS), ILS, VOR etc, and the cleverer ones have altitude acquire where the pilot preselects an altitude and the aircraft will climb or descend to achieve it, and/or a pseudo ILS function which allows ILS-like vertical and lateral guidance using GPS data to a waypoint in the FMS.
Some aircraft may have SAR (Search and Rescue) modes such as predefined search patterns, automatic guidance from the cruise to the hover over a point defined in the FMS either by previously over-flying it, or by moving a marker over it on the radar screen, automatic hovering, including the ability to input a fixed lateral and longitudinal velocity (eg to allow hovering over a drifting ship), ability for rear crew to modify the hover position (they can see under the heli when the pilots can't), and automatic transitioning up from the hover to cruise flight.
Modern autopilots can also include such things as controlling the rotor rpm in the event of engine failure, reducing collective if the pilot demands excessive power etc, and generally are at the heart of digital aircraft systems, and typically duplexed or quadruplexed (ie there are 2 or 4 separate computers to cater for failures).
So definitey not a stupid question!
HC
What is often misunderstood is that with suitably equipped helicopters, the autopilot is normally engaged some time before takeoff and not disengaged until after landing or perhaps until shutdown, unlike fixed-wing where
the autopilot is only engaged when the pilot wants to take his hands/feet off the controls in flight.
This is because of the inherent instability of a helicopter versus a plank (fixed-wing to you!). The most basic autopilot has SAS (stability augmentation system) whereby the system makes control inputs to resist rates of pitch, roll or yaw, thereby giving a feeling of artificial stability. It could be argued that even this is not an autopilot because it does not allow the aircraft to be flown hands/feet off - the aircraft will still want to fall over, just more slowly than it would without the SAS. When the pilot is flying hands-on, SAS mode is there to make the aircraft more stable. In large helis, if SAS is not working this would be considered a significant failure especially in cloud.
The next level of autopilot (sometimes called ASE - automatic stability equipment) comes into effect when the pilot lets go of the controls. It has attitude retention, ie the aircraft can be trimmed to a desired attitude (in terms of pitch and roll), which it will try to retain, and usually these have some sort of heading hold on the yaw control when bank angle is near zero and/or feet are off the pedals.
Then the pilot can select what are what are called the "upper modes" - such things as pressure altitude hold, radio altitude hold, IAS hold, selected heading hold, coupling to Area Nav (FMS), ILS, VOR etc, and the cleverer ones have altitude acquire where the pilot preselects an altitude and the aircraft will climb or descend to achieve it, and/or a pseudo ILS function which allows ILS-like vertical and lateral guidance using GPS data to a waypoint in the FMS.
Some aircraft may have SAR (Search and Rescue) modes such as predefined search patterns, automatic guidance from the cruise to the hover over a point defined in the FMS either by previously over-flying it, or by moving a marker over it on the radar screen, automatic hovering, including the ability to input a fixed lateral and longitudinal velocity (eg to allow hovering over a drifting ship), ability for rear crew to modify the hover position (they can see under the heli when the pilots can't), and automatic transitioning up from the hover to cruise flight.
Modern autopilots can also include such things as controlling the rotor rpm in the event of engine failure, reducing collective if the pilot demands excessive power etc, and generally are at the heart of digital aircraft systems, and typically duplexed or quadruplexed (ie there are 2 or 4 separate computers to cater for failures).
So definitey not a stupid question!
HC
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Wow.
A great post. I have always wondered it and since I have equal reasons as to why I would have said rotors do and don't have AP, I was completely oblivious.
I don't use google when I can ask professionals.
I understand about stupid questions - I have them in French, Jazz Piano and English teaching... I do have a PPL with 110 hours, (proudly got the higest past mark in the club too)...
Thanks again for the detailed answer. That's all I really wanted in the first place!
But this is proon after all..
A great post. I have always wondered it and since I have equal reasons as to why I would have said rotors do and don't have AP, I was completely oblivious.
I don't use google when I can ask professionals.
I understand about stupid questions - I have them in French, Jazz Piano and English teaching... I do have a PPL with 110 hours, (proudly got the higest past mark in the club too)...
Thanks again for the detailed answer. That's all I really wanted in the first place!
But this is proon after all..
Rotorspin, just a friendly observation:
I would hate to be your copilot if your response and reaction to a question is based purely upon how smart you think it is, rather than the content of it.
When I read this thread, you are the one that actually sounds stupid mate, not him.
Slow down on the coffee man.
I would hate to be your copilot if your response and reaction to a question is based purely upon how smart you think it is, rather than the content of it.
When I read this thread, you are the one that actually sounds stupid mate, not him.
Slow down on the coffee man.
There are no limits
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So the misunderstanding regarding autopilots is more widespread than expected.
The basic question was about autopilots. Its my experience that people think that the autopilot does everything including sexual favours. Not quite right.
The autopilot is a mechanical clamp that has two modes, on and off. The position of the autopilot can be trimmed and has several possible inputs.
There is no such thing as the 'upper modes' of an autopilot. There are as many sources of trim information as you like but the typical controller is called a Flight Director. The aircraft can be flown with the FD providing steering information but with the AP disengaged.
Flak jacket on, cover being taken, coffee being drunk.
The basic question was about autopilots. Its my experience that people think that the autopilot does everything including sexual favours. Not quite right.
The autopilot is a mechanical clamp that has two modes, on and off. The position of the autopilot can be trimmed and has several possible inputs.
There is no such thing as the 'upper modes' of an autopilot. There are as many sources of trim information as you like but the typical controller is called a Flight Director. The aircraft can be flown with the FD providing steering information but with the AP disengaged.
Flak jacket on, cover being taken, coffee being drunk.
WL
Perhaps you fly a small heli with only basic SAS (hence just an on-off switch) but I'm sorry you lose credibililty when you say ther is no such thing as "upper modes". Unless that is I have been mistaken since I flew the the SA330 in 1981, then AS332, the EC225 all of which have them, as do EC135 onwards, S76 (with the right fit), S92, AW139, EH101 and lots more. (In truth I can't remember if the SA330 did!).
A Flight Director is not an autopilot - its an indication system to tell the pilot how to move the controls (more precisely what attitude is required) to achieve the target of the upper modes engaged. The FD is controlled by the autopilot and as you say, in equipped aircraft the autopilot can be routed to the FD instead of the flight controls - the pilot effectively then becomes part of the autopilot. This is typically to cater for failure modes where the autopilot's ability to move the controls is lost.
HC
Perhaps you fly a small heli with only basic SAS (hence just an on-off switch) but I'm sorry you lose credibililty when you say ther is no such thing as "upper modes". Unless that is I have been mistaken since I flew the the SA330 in 1981, then AS332, the EC225 all of which have them, as do EC135 onwards, S76 (with the right fit), S92, AW139, EH101 and lots more. (In truth I can't remember if the SA330 did!).
A Flight Director is not an autopilot - its an indication system to tell the pilot how to move the controls (more precisely what attitude is required) to achieve the target of the upper modes engaged. The FD is controlled by the autopilot and as you say, in equipped aircraft the autopilot can be routed to the FD instead of the flight controls - the pilot effectively then becomes part of the autopilot. This is typically to cater for failure modes where the autopilot's ability to move the controls is lost.
HC
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WL
Sorry me old, "upper modes" certainly exist on the EC225. And they fly the damn aircraft a lot better than I can!
Sorry me old, "upper modes" certainly exist on the EC225. And they fly the damn aircraft a lot better than I can!
Last edited by whoateallthepies; 27th Sep 2007 at 05:50. Reason: Added Pie
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In defence of Tonic Please, I've learnt a lot here! Don't forget there's lots of professional heli pilots flying robbos, 206s, etc who would have no reason to know the details and capabilities of advanced autopilots either!
That was someone I never realised for starters.
NOW it's time for me to go google the details!
"Modern autopilots can also include such things as controlling the rotor rpm in the event of engine failure, reducing collective if the pilot demands excessive power etc"
NOW it's time for me to go google the details!
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The distinctions being made here between FD's and autopilots, upper modes and such are arcane - the definition is not standard, so all comers get a vote on what Autopilot means.
The FBW Comanche had every mode conceivable, including automatic targeting, load factor enhancement, decoupling of rotor modes, control limit clipping for structural envelope purposes and range optimization scheduling of rpm. THERE was an autopilot!
The FBW Comanche had every mode conceivable, including automatic targeting, load factor enhancement, decoupling of rotor modes, control limit clipping for structural envelope purposes and range optimization scheduling of rpm. THERE was an autopilot!