Civilian SAR Aircraft

[Heliport]

Interesting thread.



BTW, women SAR pilots?
See post 3189: Rotorheads Around the World


H

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cyclic - it may well be the best way forward but the problem is there is no framework for it to happen, milsar is not included in the home office plans other than being just another asset, we are not seen as either class 1 or 2 responders which is crazy. The SARF has led on the concept of putting a liaison officer into the Silver or Gold controls but not because we were asked to and certainly not because we were told to by government - we recognised the need because there was no top down planning or govt overview that would have otherwise included us. The UK response to a major incident shouldn't be haphazard and unplanned but it will be until command and control of all the assets is formally brought together - only the home office and the cabinet office can make this so.

As for S92, I am not after another p8ssing contest just stating that PRESENT capability (not what could be fitted to the aircraft at a future date) is not the same. Therefore the SARH must ensure that blurring of real and perceived capabilities by those who don't fully understand them is not allowed to occur, because once things are gone they will never be replaced.

[SARREMF]

Yeah, but seriously, it does look like a Basset Hound.

[SARREMF]

On a really serious note, I will feed that back in about Gold control and the use of helicopters. Might just have a way forward with that one.

Of course fitting all the SAR-H aircraft with Tetra would help.

Expanding SAR-H to cover all the other areas that we all know need covering as Crabb points out is the right way forward. However, give the SAR-H team credit, they did try that and had to step back as it became just too complex and territorial. What they then did was withdraw the competition to something that could be contracted for and more importantly delivered in the timescales required.

Interestingly, I am over in another country talking about co-ordinating exactly as Crabb highlighted. Same problems the SAR-H team had. However, other countries have done it - police,fire, air ambulance coast guard and SAR all under one service. Now you have to guess the country.

[steve_oc]

The interim SAR S92 config has NVG-compatible cabin lighting. The SAR-H spec includes full NVG compatibility.

The interim spec also includes Tetra for both the S92 and AW139.

[zalt]

POLSA = Police Search Aware / Advisor??

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zalt - advisor

steve oc - just need the CAA to come on board and the contractors to create realistic, sustainable training plans for NVG ops. But what about letdowns to rigs, boats and cliffs in zero visibility (OK then less than 100m)

We may get a Tetra fit in the next year or 2 as well but at the Cumbria rail crash the network saturated as all the users on scene tried to talk at once. It would be very nice to be able to talk direct to the Police on scene (we've only been asking for it for 20 years or so

SARREMF - it is definitely achievable but will only happen with direct govt involvment and direction.

[SARCO]

Now this thread is going somewhere

I am curious about the Airwave fit, would that not be expensive to have a digital (for police,fire,ambulance comms) and analogue (for CG,MRT,Shipping and ATC)?

One interesting thing I am aware of the new S92 will not have HF fitted to it and will instead have a Satfone system similar to the BP helicopters. I think this may be a hiccup for coordination purposes as ARCC/MRCC's will still require to communicate with helo's on HF for Ops Norms and long range jobs over the oggin, also you can't coordinate jobs if no one is listening to you.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[cyclic]

SARCO

Not wishing to be picky but BP don't actually have any helicopters. The helicopters belong to Bond and are on contract to BP; it's a very long contract but there is always a distinction between ownership and contract.

The Bond L2s have both a sat phone and HF. I wouldn't want to be a long way out to sea and have to rely on phoning my Mayday call in - I can't believe they are not HF fitted. What speed dial is it for Oh my God.....

[Helinut]

The issue you are talking about certainly is fragmented. It is part of completely patchwork provision of aviation support to the emergency services in the UK.

No one seems to have mentioned police helicopters in connection with inland SAR (or at least the search part). A couple of observations:

Police helicopters are part of the police's provision for onshore SAR and spend an enormous amount of their time doing onland searches for various categories of people that the police want to find - very many of these are NOT criminals. There is much variation between forces and ASUs as to how they go about that - there is much variation in the way individual forces and ASUs operate.

Even though ASUs are part of the police, the problem of the lack of knowledge of police commanders about helicopter ops is common for us too. Sometimes they do not seem to want to know about helicopter issues. A very few ASUs place ASU personnel in C&C setups, which works well when it is done, but only the minority.

Historically, police ASUs have been pressed to stay out of the rescue element of SAR in any cases where winching would be the preferable method. There are a couple of cases where pilots involved have been warned when in extremis, they have used non-approved measures to rescue a person. However, at least one ASU, the Met, have apparently been provided with winches to hang off their shiny new EC145s. Presumably, the taxpayers' money has not been used simply for them to be expensive ornaments, although I do not believe there has been any indication of how they are planned to be used so far.

Incidentally, most police helicopters in coastal areas have both Tetra/Airwave and Marine VHF to talk to the CG. It does require separate systems, but it seems to be done without too much trouble. I won't expand on it here but the airborne use of Tetra is a nightmare and it is currently a horribly unreliable comms system.

We also have various little projects where helicopters have been trialled for use by fire and rescue services, but to date no permanent dedicated provision is provided for them. In some areas, police regularly provide assistance to fire services - in other areas such cross-service assistance is rare or non-existent. I am not sure that it would be possible to generate a satisfactory case for full-time separate air support for the F&R.

We also need to acknowledge the HEMS and air ambulance roles and the ad-hoc way that this also essential helicopter service is currently provided (or indeed NOT provided in some cases).

Helicopters are an expensive resource and even though many emergency service helicopters fly more than many commercial equivalents, they can fly more. My feeling is that the whole issue should be considered as a whole - holistically if you like that word.

There are some moves to gently nudge us away from the current piecemeal approach. The noises from the Home Office "centre" are towards regionalisation of police aviation and even a National Police Air Wing. I suspect there would be much objection to that from the individual Chief Officers, if it ever happens at all. In a similar way, cross-department joint use of heles is fraught with problems. Even in cases where it has happened successfully in the past (there are some really good examples of joint Police/HEMS heles in rural areas), they are now threatened by moves to separate and provide a worse service using more aircraft at greater cost.

UK-wide multi-use emergency service helicopter support seems like the obvious answer to me. It would involve different helicopters with differing sizes and capabilities, working across the emergency services. I doubt that there is the desire for such a system to occur amongst the decision-makers, despite the effectiveness and financial benefits which could be achieved. It would need different government departments at national and local level to work together and combine budgets.

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SARCO, it's just another box in the aircraft and another aerial on the tail, that fact it is digital instead of analogue doesn't really matter, it will just be routed through the station box. The Mk3A already has 3 multiband radios - it's about time this fit was added to the Mk 3s as well. Are you sure that the 92 won't have HF? Since the ARCC have operational control of the CG helos it seems odd that this has slipped through the net.

I know their sat tracker isn't compatible with the RCS - again we are expecting to have one fitted (RCS compatible though) in the near future.

Helinut - absolutely right on all counts

[332mistress]

Cyclic

I don't want to be picky either but I think you'll find that bp have a large interest in Bond's L2s having financed the set up of what is known, in Aberdeen, as Air BP as it flies almost only for bp. The present JIGSAW set up is a much smaller operation than was originally proposed and financed by bp.

332M

[cyclic]

They have a large interest - yes. Do they own the aircraft - no. Do Bond fly for other companies other than BP - yes. Don't want to go off thread so I'll leave it there.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Helinut

I am technically involved in trying to get TETRA / Airwave comms on the UK mil SAR Fleet. Please PM me with the problems - I really need to know before we propose to spend taxpayers money..

SARCO - multiple radio systems ain't difficult, it just costs money and there isn't any - unless the new govt realises that integrated c2/3/4 is the way to go and coughs up - not likely IMHO seeing as Des is now double-hatted - MoD obviously not flavour of the month.

Sven

[Night Watchman]

The new CG S92's will have the ability to speak direct to the police and ambulence crews on the encrypted frequencies used by them.

[Helinut]

Night Watchman,
If that's true it will be more than the police helicopters fitted with Airwave can do most of the time.

[SARCO]

Night Watchman regarding airwave that is an interesting development.

Crab I have it on good authority that the 92 does not have HF fitted which I agree is very strange when the CG has operational control of the CG helo's when on task it has been known for the Northern stations to use HF to maintain contact with them due to the distances involved and the dog leg that is sometimes generated between the Helo, ARCC and MRCC.

The AIS transponders will be an interesting development also. As you know it will enable the MRCC's to see where the helo's are in real time, eventually as you say the Mil SAR fleet should have them and the ARCC or JRCC will eventually have the softyware to track them also.

Cyclic, yes Bond fly for other companies but the JIGSAW aircraft were heavily financed by BP as were the RSV's and the ARRC's so are contracted to fly for them only. They have carried out SAR missions to other platforms owned by other companies on a large number of occasions when tasked by the ARCC/MRCC or Jigco but are still tied to BP.

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SARCO - whilst the CG can scramble a CG SAR helo within 30 miles of its (the CG unit's) location - the ARCCK has operational control of all SAR helo assets and theoretically, any job outside that 30 nm radius must be activated through ARCC.

The AIS transponder is a different piece of kit to the sat tracker but you are correct in that it gives visibility of the helos location to the MRCCs. The sat tracker will only give a feed to the ARRC and their RCS although there is a plan to make the RCS available to other users (MRCCs, ambulance and police control rooms etc) through the internet with password access - this will require the IT to work so probably won't be quick or cheap!!!!

Helinut - is it a weakness in the Airwave system or the aircraft installation that is causing the problems?

[cyclic]

SARCO

I wasn't referring to the Jigsaw assets as it is obvious that Jigsaw is a BP contract only even though both aircraft's ownership has nothing to do with BP. Who lent who money is anyone's guess and why the heck should it matter? Why is it that so many of you are still so down on what Bond have achieved? They have proved the concept and saved lives offshore. This is a good thing for everyone in the industry. No more thread creep please.

[zalt]

So how are the Bond aircraft tasked? Is it through some kind of BP emergency control centre?

I understand the oil company funded SAR operation in Den Helder is tasked through the Dutch Coastguard who are free to task it themselves.