Video released for Aust Army BlackHawk crash
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Video released for Aust Army BlackHawk crash
Sorry I don't have the link as it was only released today, however the military has released footage of the BlackHawk that sank off Timor after crashing off the back of the Navy ship. Pilot Error and Strong Tailwinds were blamed and apparently a landing should have never been attempted in those conditions.
The aircraft literally bounced off the deck after hitting at a massive rate of knots, tail snaps off downwards and it bounced off the side of the ship. At first glance it appeared to be travelling at 20-30 knots. The video only lasts for around 2-3 seconds.
The aircraft literally bounced off the deck after hitting at a massive rate of knots, tail snaps off downwards and it bounced off the side of the ship. At first glance it appeared to be travelling at 20-30 knots. The video only lasts for around 2-3 seconds.
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The above video link appears not to work? Is there another source for the same please? So if the PIC was not attempting to land what was he trying to do? Or was it a mechanical failure?
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So what was the point of releasing the video? does it add anything to the BOI? does it help the bereaved family? or does it, in a half-ar*ed way show how open and transparent the BOI is....
I don't blame the Army for trying to 'supress' it as it's basically morbid curiousity at it's worst, leading to speculation on the part of uninformed pruners.
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Why should the Military have the privilege of suppressing the info, if it were a civilian operation it would not be? Yes it was a very sad tragedy, a senseless loss of life. There may be some learning in this tragedy for pilots to learn more about managing a safer operation & for raising safety awareness there should not be suppression.
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... and it wasn't attempting a landing.
sad , for sure very sad.
no conjecture could be had without at least the previous several seconds as well.
at least most of those close will know the irrelevance of some of press comments that went with it.
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Black Hawk crash footage released
Monday Jun 18 18:00 AEST
By ninemsn staff with wires
Shocking footage of an army Black Hawk helicopter crashing into the deck of the HMAS Kanimbla has been made public after it was shown at an inquiry earlier today.
Two soldiers were killed when Black Hawk A25-221 crashed and plunged into the sea off Fiji on November 29 last year.
RELATED LINKS
VIDEO: Shocking impact
The CCTV footage shows the helicopter slamming into the ship's deck before uncontrollably spinning into the ocean.
The inquiry heard that wind conditions on the day meant the helicopter should never have attempted the landing it had been briefed to conduct.
The inquiry is being conducted by retired NSW Supreme Court Justice David Levine QC at Sydney's Randwick Barracks.
Four crew members and six passengers were on the helicopter.
Nine of the 10 were rescued before the Black Hawk sank but the pilot,
Captain Mark Bingley, later died of his injuries.
In March, the helicopter wreckage and body of Special Air Service Trooper Joshua Porter were recovered from the sea floor at a depth of almost 3km.
Counsel assisting the defence board of inquiry, Commander Jack Rush QC, said the Black Hawk was undertaking a "high-risk" training exercise in tail winds of 10-15 knots when it crashed into the deck, severing the tail rotor from the main body.
Cdr Rush said the brief of how to conduct the exercise should have been altered to take into account the tail wind, which would have made it difficult for the pilot to control the helicopter's descent.
"The evidence before the board foreshowed there was a critical lack of risk management processes," Cdr Rush told the inquiry.
"As briefed, the flight should not have been authorised.
"Specifically, changes should have been made to the brief to allow for the wind."
He said changes should have included an adjustment to the speed at which the aircraft approached the ship.
The inquiry was also shown graphic video footage filmed by a trooper sitting in the back of the helicopter. Both videos showed the helicopter colliding with HMAS Kanimbla.
The family of Trooper Porter, including his widow Carinna and one-month-old daughter Madison, along with the family of Captain Bingley, also watched video footage of the salvage operation of the Black Hawk from the ocean floor.
The inquiry was told by Major-General Anthony Fraser, head of the army's helicopter systems, that a decision had been made not to fit flotation devices to Black Hawks as it would have increased their weight and could slow escape from a sinking helicopter.
However, he said they would also have lowered the speed at which the helicopter sunk.
The inquiry continues.
ĐAAP 2007
Very sad indeed. Not having flown a Blackhawk and without any familiarity of
same, would a 10-15knot tailwind really have such a dramatic effect on such an aircraft?
Please let me make it clear that this is a genuine enquiry and nothing more.
Cheers
Gotagivitago
P.S Can I also just say how tremendously impressed I was with the way Captain Bingley's wife has conducted herself throughout this whole affair. He must be extremely proud of her and rightly so.
In saying that, I mean no disrespect to anyone else as she was the only widow I saw on the news
Monday Jun 18 18:00 AEST
By ninemsn staff with wires
Shocking footage of an army Black Hawk helicopter crashing into the deck of the HMAS Kanimbla has been made public after it was shown at an inquiry earlier today.
Two soldiers were killed when Black Hawk A25-221 crashed and plunged into the sea off Fiji on November 29 last year.
RELATED LINKS
VIDEO: Shocking impact
The CCTV footage shows the helicopter slamming into the ship's deck before uncontrollably spinning into the ocean.
The inquiry heard that wind conditions on the day meant the helicopter should never have attempted the landing it had been briefed to conduct.
The inquiry is being conducted by retired NSW Supreme Court Justice David Levine QC at Sydney's Randwick Barracks.
Four crew members and six passengers were on the helicopter.
Nine of the 10 were rescued before the Black Hawk sank but the pilot,
Captain Mark Bingley, later died of his injuries.
In March, the helicopter wreckage and body of Special Air Service Trooper Joshua Porter were recovered from the sea floor at a depth of almost 3km.
Counsel assisting the defence board of inquiry, Commander Jack Rush QC, said the Black Hawk was undertaking a "high-risk" training exercise in tail winds of 10-15 knots when it crashed into the deck, severing the tail rotor from the main body.
Cdr Rush said the brief of how to conduct the exercise should have been altered to take into account the tail wind, which would have made it difficult for the pilot to control the helicopter's descent.
"The evidence before the board foreshowed there was a critical lack of risk management processes," Cdr Rush told the inquiry.
"As briefed, the flight should not have been authorised.
"Specifically, changes should have been made to the brief to allow for the wind."
He said changes should have included an adjustment to the speed at which the aircraft approached the ship.
The inquiry was also shown graphic video footage filmed by a trooper sitting in the back of the helicopter. Both videos showed the helicopter colliding with HMAS Kanimbla.
The family of Trooper Porter, including his widow Carinna and one-month-old daughter Madison, along with the family of Captain Bingley, also watched video footage of the salvage operation of the Black Hawk from the ocean floor.
The inquiry was told by Major-General Anthony Fraser, head of the army's helicopter systems, that a decision had been made not to fit flotation devices to Black Hawks as it would have increased their weight and could slow escape from a sinking helicopter.
However, he said they would also have lowered the speed at which the helicopter sunk.
The inquiry continues.
ĐAAP 2007
Very sad indeed. Not having flown a Blackhawk and without any familiarity of
same, would a 10-15knot tailwind really have such a dramatic effect on such an aircraft?
Please let me make it clear that this is a genuine enquiry and nothing more.
Cheers
Gotagivitago
P.S Can I also just say how tremendously impressed I was with the way Captain Bingley's wife has conducted herself throughout this whole affair. He must be extremely proud of her and rightly so.
In saying that, I mean no disrespect to anyone else as she was the only widow I saw on the news
Last edited by Gotagivitago; 18th Jun 2007 at 13:40.
Hi Gotagivitago,
even so I used the IE, the video didnīt start.
Back to your question.
Itīs a long time since I did my last deck landing and I have never flown a black hawk - still, I have done some decklandings - at more adverse conditions - like high sea state - night - pouring rain and darkend landing area.
When approaching a ships deck you should always have some amount of forward wind. Any helicopter gets more or less unstable, when you have a tailwind component. Add to this a moving and wobbeling landing area due to the seastate and youīll increase the risks of a deck landings by a factor, which isnīt necessary.
With any amount of wind on the nose you need less power and get a more stable helicopter (as long as you avoid flying through the turbulences of the superstructure).
The picture from the video does only show the area, where the ship was before, but where would have been the problem to go onto flying course, delivering some forward airflow?
The problem is mostly in the minds of the shipcrew because they cant understand the effects of tailwind on a helicopter - or the effects of a sharp turn with the helicopter turning on the deck....
So its up to the pilot to refuse to land - and itīs a good habit to take the responsible ships officers to a joyride - and then show them the problems, which can occur on a flight deck.
There have been instances, where only the chains keept the helicopter on the deck, because the bride did a sharp turn - vanisching the hole helicopter under water - when it reappeared, the engines where running down, the main rotor as well - while the tail rotor was already stopped.....
Flight operations to and from ship decks have many additional risks you donīt have influence on - so never add risks, you can influence.
Greetings Flying Bull
even so I used the IE, the video didnīt start.
Back to your question.
Itīs a long time since I did my last deck landing and I have never flown a black hawk - still, I have done some decklandings - at more adverse conditions - like high sea state - night - pouring rain and darkend landing area.
When approaching a ships deck you should always have some amount of forward wind. Any helicopter gets more or less unstable, when you have a tailwind component. Add to this a moving and wobbeling landing area due to the seastate and youīll increase the risks of a deck landings by a factor, which isnīt necessary.
With any amount of wind on the nose you need less power and get a more stable helicopter (as long as you avoid flying through the turbulences of the superstructure).
The picture from the video does only show the area, where the ship was before, but where would have been the problem to go onto flying course, delivering some forward airflow?
The problem is mostly in the minds of the shipcrew because they cant understand the effects of tailwind on a helicopter - or the effects of a sharp turn with the helicopter turning on the deck....
So its up to the pilot to refuse to land - and itīs a good habit to take the responsible ships officers to a joyride - and then show them the problems, which can occur on a flight deck.
There have been instances, where only the chains keept the helicopter on the deck, because the bride did a sharp turn - vanisching the hole helicopter under water - when it reappeared, the engines where running down, the main rotor as well - while the tail rotor was already stopped.....
Flight operations to and from ship decks have many additional risks you donīt have influence on - so never add risks, you can influence.
Greetings Flying Bull
As I remember my training long time ago ( I flew Navy Seakings ), ship approaches should be done with headwind and not direct inbound the deck. We were instructed to do the approach into a hover left aside the deck, so in case of a malfunction a go around ( or even a OEI landing in the water ) is much easier than with a direkt approach.
skadi
skadi
More extensive footage of the accident was shown on the ABC news tonight, including a short clip taken from on-board the helicopter.
It shows the helicopter approaching the deck rapidly at a very steep angle, fast closing rate, and very high rate of descent, with coning on the main rotor disk evident suggesting very high power demand/output of the engines. The nose of the helicopter hits the helideck first, the airframe distorts causing the co-pilots door to swing open, the main wheel oleos compress fully and as the nose section bounces up off the deck the tail section pivots down causing the tail rotor to hit the safety netting resulting in immediate separation of the tail rotor pylon from the tail boom. Virtually instantaneously the cabin rotates 180 degrees to the right, the rapid rotational speed obviously due to the torque reaction applied by the engines at very high power. The helicopter appears to remain upright but spinning rapidly and pitching up as it disappears out of view prior to entering the water.
From what was shown in the video it certainly was not a normal approach by any conventional standards, although the media report described the helicopter as performing some type of tactical manouvre. For what reason they did not elaborate. In any event, having seen the footage it is a wonder that anybody survived the initial impact, let alone extraction from the aircraft whilst under water. Testament perhaps to good training and an ounce of luck.
The report went on to say that the flight data recorder was recovered and there were no indications of any systems malfunctions prior to the accident.
It shows the helicopter approaching the deck rapidly at a very steep angle, fast closing rate, and very high rate of descent, with coning on the main rotor disk evident suggesting very high power demand/output of the engines. The nose of the helicopter hits the helideck first, the airframe distorts causing the co-pilots door to swing open, the main wheel oleos compress fully and as the nose section bounces up off the deck the tail section pivots down causing the tail rotor to hit the safety netting resulting in immediate separation of the tail rotor pylon from the tail boom. Virtually instantaneously the cabin rotates 180 degrees to the right, the rapid rotational speed obviously due to the torque reaction applied by the engines at very high power. The helicopter appears to remain upright but spinning rapidly and pitching up as it disappears out of view prior to entering the water.
From what was shown in the video it certainly was not a normal approach by any conventional standards, although the media report described the helicopter as performing some type of tactical manouvre. For what reason they did not elaborate. In any event, having seen the footage it is a wonder that anybody survived the initial impact, let alone extraction from the aircraft whilst under water. Testament perhaps to good training and an ounce of luck.
The report went on to say that the flight data recorder was recovered and there were no indications of any systems malfunctions prior to the accident.
For those having trouble with the video link, i've put a copy of something similar here http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk...?videokey=1614
V.
V.
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Special assignments in aviation
As a previous crew memeber with over t 2000 hours on S70A operating in many diverse roles across oz and overseas, it was both horrific and gut wrenching to to see that footage today.
From my own experience those manurves involving special ops are practised and rehersed repeatedly by day and then by night to ensure all the skills and safety margins are acheived.
Obviously there was not enough scrutiny of the safety margins on that given day. S70A will tolerate a tail wind component but at what acft weight and performance margin is the question??
This squadron is the pinniacle of a rotary wing operational flying career in the military and I am very pleased to have been a part of that unit. They do a fantastic job....
From my own experience those manurves involving special ops are practised and rehersed repeatedly by day and then by night to ensure all the skills and safety margins are acheived.
Obviously there was not enough scrutiny of the safety margins on that given day. S70A will tolerate a tail wind component but at what acft weight and performance margin is the question??
This squadron is the pinniacle of a rotary wing operational flying career in the military and I am very pleased to have been a part of that unit. They do a fantastic job....
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Vortex Ring
Vortex Ring is the apparent culprit here. Some may call this settling with power; it is the same phenomenon.
If a helicopter is flown on a downwind approach with a high sink rate and low forward speed it will assuredly enter a vortex ring state.
The result is always thus; the descent will continue until the pilot reduces collective and increases airspeed, or where neither airspace or altitude allow, the helicopter must crash.
The reports that I have seen on TV appear to say that the pilot was ordered to make that approach. I doubt that, for he must know that to do would constitute a kamakazi operation. No Australian pilot is going to be so mute - or obedient!
Sorry to say this: pilot error, it seems. There but for.....etc
The Kite
If a helicopter is flown on a downwind approach with a high sink rate and low forward speed it will assuredly enter a vortex ring state.
The result is always thus; the descent will continue until the pilot reduces collective and increases airspeed, or where neither airspace or altitude allow, the helicopter must crash.
The reports that I have seen on TV appear to say that the pilot was ordered to make that approach. I doubt that, for he must know that to do would constitute a kamakazi operation. No Australian pilot is going to be so mute - or obedient!
Sorry to say this: pilot error, it seems. There but for.....etc
The Kite
What a load of b**ocks "thekite". Since when was VRS the same thing as settling with power??????
One is an aerodynamic effect, the other is a performance limitation.
Second: how on earth can you speculate on and conclude the cause when you see the helo for about 1.5 seconds prior to impact
God help us all
One is an aerodynamic effect, the other is a performance limitation.
Second: how on earth can you speculate on and conclude the cause when you see the helo for about 1.5 seconds prior to impact
God help us all
One odd thing I noticed, that would question the whole tail wind scenario:
The stabilator is still in a fairly level setting, which would suggest high airspeed (at least 50 kts, if I remember correctly). So unless they had a stabilator failure or elected to disable the auto mode, they had to be going very fast for ship ops. Then again, there is barely enough time to ascertain the actual stabilator position prior to destruction.
I don't mean to create tread drift, but I think someone is confusing "settling with power" with "power settling." Power settling is the one having to do with performance limitations, while settling with power is just another way of describing Vortex Ring State.
The stabilator is still in a fairly level setting, which would suggest high airspeed (at least 50 kts, if I remember correctly). So unless they had a stabilator failure or elected to disable the auto mode, they had to be going very fast for ship ops. Then again, there is barely enough time to ascertain the actual stabilator position prior to destruction.
I don't mean to create tread drift, but I think someone is confusing "settling with power" with "power settling." Power settling is the one having to do with performance limitations, while settling with power is just another way of describing Vortex Ring State.