Robinson Log Times Factor by 1.12?
Hang on i am now confused ! Like most pilots i know i only put in the tech log the time skids off the ground...i can sit on the ground all day with the rorors turning but nothing gets logged in my log book or the a/c tech log.
Also passengers are invoiced from the hrs in the tech log ie only hrs airborne
Also passengers are invoiced from the hrs in the tech log ie only hrs airborne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hey mr nigel,
that is correct for tech log, but not for your personal log book.
either log ICAO/JAR - Rotor start to rotor stop or
log ANO/FTL - First taxi/lift - rotor stop,
its up to you (or maybe your company)
regards
CF
P.S. how you charge passengers is a red herring, charge them by any method you like !
i only put in the tech log the time skids off the ground...
either log ICAO/JAR - Rotor start to rotor stop or
log ANO/FTL - First taxi/lift - rotor stop,
its up to you (or maybe your company)
regards
CF
P.S. how you charge passengers is a red herring, charge them by any method you like !
Does this mean i can add 10% onto my log book ?!! in the old days crop spraying in 47,s you were hrs on ground , rotors running refuel and loading liquids not to mention 3 min cool down !!!
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nigel,
log what you what, as long as you think its correct ! by either definition
sometimes I have done 20 sectors without shutting down including 2 refuels and only half of the time I put in the logbook was actually in the air !
CF
log what you what, as long as you think its correct ! by either definition
sometimes I have done 20 sectors without shutting down including 2 refuels and only half of the time I put in the logbook was actually in the air !
CF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is an issue that has been discussed before and won’t be going away, neither should it.
What speaks volumes here are the dudes who are saying nothing. There are two varieties of those;
1) Those who operate a-la post two (except that need is interpreted as want) and don’t wish any one to know or think that others don’t know, and
2) Those who know about those who operate a-la post two and don’t wish to name names, rock the boat or are unable to and or are totally frustrated with the system that allows these others to get away with it.
Most OZ mustering drivers used to get paid by the charge hour and only log in their logbook, (supposedly) their total skids off time as per the flight time definitions. They might then log M/R time as per the manufacturer's specs. A useful scene when big hours were around.
Some as mentioned above logged only their charge time in both the personal log book AND the M/R. Those that was more honest than 1 above that is.
The charge hour depended largely on where one was operating, some have been known to regularly do 4 -5 hours each way and charge only for the job while there, maybe only a 3 hour job? Others complained like hell if they had more that one minute dead head ferry, as they should.
Of course company checking (autos etc and induction training) was never charge time, unless it was operational training on the job.
RHC has no interest in pilots personal logs but says that the M/R (tech log) must be from start up to shut down, via the oil pressure hobbs, or as said already 1.12 times the collective hobbs.
“SOME” people have an old dispo – in the form of a letter- from RHC and therefore were able to pursue the same dispo from CASA which did away with the Hobbs and instead use the chronometer. It’s debateable as to whether ‘some’ of those – or ‘some’ others who liberally use side cutters and or screwdrivers can tell the difference between a wrist watch (especially now its digital), sundial, moon cycle or an f’n leap year.
The fact that some operate liberally mean that all mustering machines part life value is zero. I.E. All are punished by the practice of a few.
Some CASA operatives are a might peee’d off about these dispo's, but seem to have their hands tied until such time as companies either change hands and or entities and of course they then lapse.
Of course Frank could and should issue a statement that all old bets are orrfff, circulate such to CASA and that would help.
I am absolutely positive that a man of Frank’s intelligence could and should design a foolproof Hobbs meter to put in his machines and stipulate that it must be used. If one were in the tacho gauge for example and sealed, it would be mighty hard to fly them without a tacho.
Of course the worse thing that has happened to R22’s in recent times is the installation of elastomeric bearings on the T/R. They last too long.
What speaks volumes here are the dudes who are saying nothing. There are two varieties of those;
1) Those who operate a-la post two (except that need is interpreted as want) and don’t wish any one to know or think that others don’t know, and
2) Those who know about those who operate a-la post two and don’t wish to name names, rock the boat or are unable to and or are totally frustrated with the system that allows these others to get away with it.
Most OZ mustering drivers used to get paid by the charge hour and only log in their logbook, (supposedly) their total skids off time as per the flight time definitions. They might then log M/R time as per the manufacturer's specs. A useful scene when big hours were around.
Some as mentioned above logged only their charge time in both the personal log book AND the M/R. Those that was more honest than 1 above that is.
The charge hour depended largely on where one was operating, some have been known to regularly do 4 -5 hours each way and charge only for the job while there, maybe only a 3 hour job? Others complained like hell if they had more that one minute dead head ferry, as they should.
Of course company checking (autos etc and induction training) was never charge time, unless it was operational training on the job.
RHC has no interest in pilots personal logs but says that the M/R (tech log) must be from start up to shut down, via the oil pressure hobbs, or as said already 1.12 times the collective hobbs.
“SOME” people have an old dispo – in the form of a letter- from RHC and therefore were able to pursue the same dispo from CASA which did away with the Hobbs and instead use the chronometer. It’s debateable as to whether ‘some’ of those – or ‘some’ others who liberally use side cutters and or screwdrivers can tell the difference between a wrist watch (especially now its digital), sundial, moon cycle or an f’n leap year.
The fact that some operate liberally mean that all mustering machines part life value is zero. I.E. All are punished by the practice of a few.
Some CASA operatives are a might peee’d off about these dispo's, but seem to have their hands tied until such time as companies either change hands and or entities and of course they then lapse.
Of course Frank could and should issue a statement that all old bets are orrfff, circulate such to CASA and that would help.
I am absolutely positive that a man of Frank’s intelligence could and should design a foolproof Hobbs meter to put in his machines and stipulate that it must be used. If one were in the tacho gauge for example and sealed, it would be mighty hard to fly them without a tacho.
Of course the worse thing that has happened to R22’s in recent times is the installation of elastomeric bearings on the T/R. They last too long.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Europe
Age: 45
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where I work we only log skids up and skids down.
We are limited to a 8hr flight day and a 14hr duty day.
It is not uncommon to spool up at sunrise and spend may be the next 12hrs in the seat with blades spinning and only maybe one or two quick shutdowns to deal with nature. Could really run out of time quick!
How would we log time on those aircraft with flight control locks that allow the pilot to get out of the seat with things moving? Is he still flying?
We are limited to a 8hr flight day and a 14hr duty day.
It is not uncommon to spool up at sunrise and spend may be the next 12hrs in the seat with blades spinning and only maybe one or two quick shutdowns to deal with nature. Could really run out of time quick!
How would we log time on those aircraft with flight control locks that allow the pilot to get out of the seat with things moving? Is he still flying?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dont think its a problem here in UK land. You can't not be at the controls of a helicopter if it's running. Yes seen it done in the states/aus etc but not over here.
For your log book you can quite legally log all time from starting the engine to shutdown, whether airborne or not. This isn't necessarily logged as flight time but in command time.
For your log book you can quite legally log all time from starting the engine to shutdown, whether airborne or not. This isn't necessarily logged as flight time but in command time.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bymehere
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I ground taxi from a gate on north side at Gatwick for departure (noting the time), to hold at a runway hold point whilst waiting for a stream of heavies to come and go, I am Pilot in Command of the Helicopter. The fact that Gatwick can't deal with a helicopter departure going north without the need to get within several hundred metres of the active, (never mind cross the active) does not absolve me from any responsibilities in the course of my duties as aircraft commander. I have sat in this position for as long as 20 minutes.
Following my eventual lift I will note the wheels off time and eventually my landing time. The Tech log will reflect the time I spent in the air, My personal logbook will reflect the time I was in command of the helicopter from the time I started to taxi to the time I switched off the engines. My logbook has a column for P1 - it does not have a column for airborne time.
If ground taxiing at an international airport and waiting my turn for take off in line with the heavies is not worthy of logging P1 time then I think the ramp personnel, or maybe someone from the Ops department should take the helicopter to the point of departure and then call for me, the pilot, at the moment just before take-off. Actually, there's an idea, this would save me a lot of duty hours and stress!!
I once flew as an instructor with a CAA employed examiner who was doing a type rating. He was adamant that he should be charged for an hours tuition, even though the collective actuated datcon only showed 0.8. He was also adamant that we should both log 1.0 hr. The tech log would however reflect the 0.8 airborne time.
Following my eventual lift I will note the wheels off time and eventually my landing time. The Tech log will reflect the time I spent in the air, My personal logbook will reflect the time I was in command of the helicopter from the time I started to taxi to the time I switched off the engines. My logbook has a column for P1 - it does not have a column for airborne time.
If ground taxiing at an international airport and waiting my turn for take off in line with the heavies is not worthy of logging P1 time then I think the ramp personnel, or maybe someone from the Ops department should take the helicopter to the point of departure and then call for me, the pilot, at the moment just before take-off. Actually, there's an idea, this would save me a lot of duty hours and stress!!
I once flew as an instructor with a CAA employed examiner who was doing a type rating. He was adamant that he should be charged for an hours tuition, even though the collective actuated datcon only showed 0.8. He was also adamant that we should both log 1.0 hr. The tech log would however reflect the 0.8 airborne time.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nowra NSW
Age: 73
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robinson maintenance bourse
Has there been any changes to the correct way to record R22 hours for maintenance? Engine Hobbs metre or collective multiplied by 1.12 used to be the required method.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: England
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robinson 12 years/2200 Hours Question
Hi I'm wondering if anyone can help re this question. The HOBS on a R44 is collective activated meaning that the 2200 hours will be actual flown hours, The HOBS on the R22 is engine activated (although I believe you can request a collective activated one if ordering new from the factory). For the R22 this effectively means that when the HOBS shows 2200 hours it will only have flown around 2000 hours, taking into account start up and shut down times. A friend tells me they use the aircraft log at their flight school and record the actual flown hours by taking the HOBS time and multiplying by 0.9 and it is on that basis that they retire the aircraft at 2200 hours flying time which will of course show more on the HOBS meter.
Two questions then, firstly is this practice acceptable as they're basically doing what a collective activated machine would do? Secondly as a private user can I buy an R22 that has say 1800 hours showing on the HOBS multiply it by 0.9 giving effective flying hours of 1620 and fly off the remaining 580 on the same principle?
If this has been asked before I apologise, I did search and couldn't find an answer.
Thanks.
Two questions then, firstly is this practice acceptable as they're basically doing what a collective activated machine would do? Secondly as a private user can I buy an R22 that has say 1800 hours showing on the HOBS multiply it by 0.9 giving effective flying hours of 1620 and fly off the remaining 580 on the same principle?
If this has been asked before I apologise, I did search and couldn't find an answer.
Thanks.
A tech log usually records two time sets, block time and flight time.
Noting the time you hit the starter and again when the rotor has stopped. That's block time.
When the skids leave ground and touch again, that's flight time.
Doing tours with hot refueling and hot pilot changes the book might read 10 hours block with 8 hours flight time. YMMV.
Noting the time you hit the starter and again when the rotor has stopped. That's block time.
When the skids leave ground and touch again, that's flight time.
Doing tours with hot refueling and hot pilot changes the book might read 10 hours block with 8 hours flight time. YMMV.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The answer to your question is not straightforward. In summary there are potential savings to be had in some places and not others.
Start with reviewing pages 3.13 and 3.14 in the Life Limited Components section of the R22 maintenance manual:
https://robinsonheli.com/r22-maintenance-manual/
P.S. It's "Hobbs" not "HOBS". It's a name, not an acronym.
Start with reviewing pages 3.13 and 3.14 in the Life Limited Components section of the R22 maintenance manual:
https://robinsonheli.com/r22-maintenance-manual/
P.S. It's "Hobbs" not "HOBS". It's a name, not an acronym.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: England
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still Not Clear!!!
I think the confusion is in the clarification of what 2200 "life" means??? Does it mean "flight hours" or "switched on" hours in whatever capacity that takes. R should really make it clearer so there is no confusion but since this original thread has been going since 2007 I doubt that will happen!!!
Flight time
At least in the US, Airworthiness limitations are always clearly specified as to what they are based on be it flight-time, run-time (which I have never seen as a metric for a life limit), landings, cycles / cycle computations or calendar time. The Hobbs type meter is not required in any helicopter unless it is called out in the type certificate. You are always legally allowed to use your giant pilot wrist watch, stop watch, cell phone timer, or an egg timer to log flight time. The meter is a convenience only be it engine/transmission oil pressure activated or a collective activated switch. Of course many late model ships have timers and cycle counters as part of a VEMD or other built in data recorder. Most operators use flight time for maintenance actions and run time for billing customers but that varies.
Seems pretty simple. According to the Robinson manual, the 2200 hours is based on "run-time" (engine start to engine stop). If you want to use your collective-actuated hourmeter to record time, then it's 1964 hours.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the confusion is in the clarification of what 2200 "life" means??? Does it mean "flight hours" or "switched on" hours in whatever capacity that takes. R should really make it clearer so there is no confusion but since this original thread has been going since 2007 I doubt that will happen!!!
"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on engine run time as recorded by an oil-pressure-activated hourmeter"
<or>
"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on flight (collective up) time as recorded by a collective-activated hourmeter"
That is completely clear and unambiguous. There is no requirement to multiply numbers by some factor or make any sort of calculation. Choose the type of hour meter you have and use the corresponding table.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: England
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The maintenance manual makes it perfectly clear. Quoting from the manual:
"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on engine run time as recorded by an oil-pressure-activated hourmeter"
<or>
"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on flight (collective up) time as recorded by a collective-activated hourmeter"
That is completely clear and unambiguous. There is no requirement to multiply numbers by some factor or make any sort of calculation. Choose the type of hour meter you have and use the corresponding table.
"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on engine run time as recorded by an oil-pressure-activated hourmeter"
<or>
"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on flight (collective up) time as recorded by a collective-activated hourmeter"
That is completely clear and unambiguous. There is no requirement to multiply numbers by some factor or make any sort of calculation. Choose the type of hour meter you have and use the corresponding table.
