Longranger missing in PNG?
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Gullibell
"...or are otherwise experienced pilots but with little PNG experience being caught out in unfamiliar conditions."
I believe you have it.
Over several years there have been several acidents like this one. To my observation there has been the recurring theme of pilots having accidents within their first or second tour (six I know of personally.)
There are probably many factors involved. It's usually a stressful time to begin any new job. Just coping with the new company personel and paperwork can distract from the flying. Throw in a radical cultural and geograhic change and what have you got? Stress. As you speculate in your post, the new pilots are expected to perform as well as the "old hands."
There is usually a lot of pressure from the operator to provide a seamless service to the client when a pilot leaves , but little resource is available to ease a 'newbie' in slowly. The cut-throat nature of the industry does not leave a margin for unproductive learning periods for these guys. Even attaining a work visa takes ages so the rush is on from day one.
The client can also put pressure on, even unwittingly. Some people involved around helicopters seem to become more expert in the operation of them than the pilots. They will judge a pilot purely on what they have seen others do before him. If you don't front up and perform to that standard you can be labelled unproductive by these dangerous people with little knowledge, big opinions and the ear of the management.
There are the usual obvious answers to fix these problems, such as take care of the experienced guys so they don't leave, have new staff on hand ready to be fed into the system slowly, but of course all remedies need money. Neither the client nor the operator will expend that in the name of safety. They would rather take the risk that the new guy can hack it. And of course many do. Sadly some don't.
Will it change? Don't hold your breath.
"...or are otherwise experienced pilots but with little PNG experience being caught out in unfamiliar conditions."
I believe you have it.
Over several years there have been several acidents like this one. To my observation there has been the recurring theme of pilots having accidents within their first or second tour (six I know of personally.)
There are probably many factors involved. It's usually a stressful time to begin any new job. Just coping with the new company personel and paperwork can distract from the flying. Throw in a radical cultural and geograhic change and what have you got? Stress. As you speculate in your post, the new pilots are expected to perform as well as the "old hands."
There is usually a lot of pressure from the operator to provide a seamless service to the client when a pilot leaves , but little resource is available to ease a 'newbie' in slowly. The cut-throat nature of the industry does not leave a margin for unproductive learning periods for these guys. Even attaining a work visa takes ages so the rush is on from day one.
The client can also put pressure on, even unwittingly. Some people involved around helicopters seem to become more expert in the operation of them than the pilots. They will judge a pilot purely on what they have seen others do before him. If you don't front up and perform to that standard you can be labelled unproductive by these dangerous people with little knowledge, big opinions and the ear of the management.
There are the usual obvious answers to fix these problems, such as take care of the experienced guys so they don't leave, have new staff on hand ready to be fed into the system slowly, but of course all remedies need money. Neither the client nor the operator will expend that in the name of safety. They would rather take the risk that the new guy can hack it. And of course many do. Sadly some don't.
Will it change? Don't hold your breath.
Without deliberately being provocative - the last two majors involved Australian pilots. Without knowing anything about their history; is it feasible to assume a lack of mountain experience or rapid weather change?
I was working around the HL accident this year and that pilot was new to PNG and in my accessment (visual only) he was flying the machine hard like there was no tomorrow.
Customer pressure at OSL is like no other. Its the only place in the world that I have had the statement "well the other pilots must be better than you, cause they can fly in this fog" directed at me.
OSL itself is a dangerous company to work for in my opinion. I hope never to be associated with that gong show again.
Regards to all.
I was working around the HL accident this year and that pilot was new to PNG and in my accessment (visual only) he was flying the machine hard like there was no tomorrow.
Customer pressure at OSL is like no other. Its the only place in the world that I have had the statement "well the other pilots must be better than you, cause they can fly in this fog" directed at me.
OSL itself is a dangerous company to work for in my opinion. I hope never to be associated with that gong show again.
Regards to all.
I would add to my comments, without trying to sound superior - that I find PNG easy to fly in. If you have any mountain time elsewhere and apply the same rules, carry more fuel than you need, work the loadings to your favor and always have a plan. Its a lot easier to fly in than say Canada. There are no off field landings; 95% of what you do is to prepared sites or within a defined area.
One major issue I see with the place is the incompetent maintenance and **** machinery. HNG's fleet of LR's are like a fleet of ex-rental AVIS cars. Ridden hard and put away wet...
There is also a typical kiwi/aussie mentaliity of undercut the other guy to drive him down. Everyone loses and the uber wealthy resource company laughs all the way to the investors. The management of all the companies are their own worst enemy.
One major issue I see with the place is the incompetent maintenance and **** machinery. HNG's fleet of LR's are like a fleet of ex-rental AVIS cars. Ridden hard and put away wet...
There is also a typical kiwi/aussie mentaliity of undercut the other guy to drive him down. Everyone loses and the uber wealthy resource company laughs all the way to the investors. The management of all the companies are their own worst enemy.
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You can believe what Steve76 says.
Of course, we do not know if HNG maintenance has any bearing on this accident so we shouldn't go down that road as far as I'm concerned.
As to machines "being put away wet," actually they don't even get put away much. They have to endure that wet climate continuously, but really there is not much difference between the operators. Look at the pilots that have been here a while. They swap from one to the other, looking for improvement, but when it all comes down to it the companies are all the same in the long run.
"The management of all the companies are their own worst enemy."
True as well. But you're unlikely to get top class abilities and personalities into a management position in that environment. The smart people are just to smart to do it to themselves. This doesn't just apply to aviation companies though.
If you find the flying environment not too difficult (I agree with that) you'll find dealing with the management of both the clients and operators will at least make for an interesting challenge. As the saying goes you need to be a misfit, missionary, or mercenary to be there. Management are generally numbers one and/or three, very rarely are they a two.
Of course, we do not know if HNG maintenance has any bearing on this accident so we shouldn't go down that road as far as I'm concerned.
As to machines "being put away wet," actually they don't even get put away much. They have to endure that wet climate continuously, but really there is not much difference between the operators. Look at the pilots that have been here a while. They swap from one to the other, looking for improvement, but when it all comes down to it the companies are all the same in the long run.
"The management of all the companies are their own worst enemy."
True as well. But you're unlikely to get top class abilities and personalities into a management position in that environment. The smart people are just to smart to do it to themselves. This doesn't just apply to aviation companies though.
If you find the flying environment not too difficult (I agree with that) you'll find dealing with the management of both the clients and operators will at least make for an interesting challenge. As the saying goes you need to be a misfit, missionary, or mercenary to be there. Management are generally numbers one and/or three, very rarely are they a two.
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PNG experience and personal limits are in my view the #1 reason why aircraft crash in PNG. I'm a F/W PNG pilot who has been up there for a few years now, and I still scare myself sh*t-less some days when I screw up. If a PNG pilot has 9 lives I sure that I have used up at least 3 of them !
From experience I now tread a lot more carefully than I did when I first started flying up there. Management and clients don't make things easy, and having flown for a number of operators up there, I must say that I totally agree with the previous posts, the pressure that is put on pilots sometimes is totally unrealistic to say the least if not just bloody plain stupid ! That's coming from a fixed wingers point of view, but it's the same on the heli side as the company I fly for also operates helicopters and if anything its worse for the heli pilots, than it is for us fixed wingers with my employer. Some of the large companies that should know better (The ones who audit) are sometimes the worst pushers.
I have come to the conclusion recently, that I just tell my employer or the client (Who ever is calling the shots at the time) that this is the way I'm going to operate the machine and if they aren't happy they can pi$$ off and get another pilot to do their job in the unsafe manner that they require. Having lost a few mates over the years in PNG to CFIT I am not going to become another victim. Set your own limits and don't go outside of them,
Em Tasol !
There are a small number of pilots up there who like to show up the next pilot, but just remember they have more chance ending up in a wooden box than the pilots who elect to play it safe.
Keep it safe ! If in doubt "GET OUT" !
From experience I now tread a lot more carefully than I did when I first started flying up there. Management and clients don't make things easy, and having flown for a number of operators up there, I must say that I totally agree with the previous posts, the pressure that is put on pilots sometimes is totally unrealistic to say the least if not just bloody plain stupid ! That's coming from a fixed wingers point of view, but it's the same on the heli side as the company I fly for also operates helicopters and if anything its worse for the heli pilots, than it is for us fixed wingers with my employer. Some of the large companies that should know better (The ones who audit) are sometimes the worst pushers.
I have come to the conclusion recently, that I just tell my employer or the client (Who ever is calling the shots at the time) that this is the way I'm going to operate the machine and if they aren't happy they can pi$$ off and get another pilot to do their job in the unsafe manner that they require. Having lost a few mates over the years in PNG to CFIT I am not going to become another victim. Set your own limits and don't go outside of them,
Em Tasol !
There are a small number of pilots up there who like to show up the next pilot, but just remember they have more chance ending up in a wooden box than the pilots who elect to play it safe.
Keep it safe ! If in doubt "GET OUT" !
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steve76 what utter todge.
"There are no off field landings; 95% of what you do is to prepared sites or within a defined area"
What part of PNG did you fly in? Jackson's International by the sound of that statement.
I mean ffs lift your game.
"There are no off field landings; 95% of what you do is to prepared sites or within a defined area"
What part of PNG did you fly in? Jackson's International by the sound of that statement.
I mean ffs lift your game.
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Steve76 That coment is a load of crap pull your head out your ass what are you thinking saying PNG is a easy place to fly !!! and all that other dribble you have been going on about.
I dont know where you flew there maybe it was only around POM circuit area or never at all, I dont see it like and i am shore all those people who didnt make it back from there didnt as well.
Congratulations on making an ass of your self
I dont know where you flew there maybe it was only around POM circuit area or never at all, I dont see it like and i am shore all those people who didnt make it back from there didnt as well.
Congratulations on making an ass of your self
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Let's not be too harsh on Steve 76 guys. I understood where he was coming from - or at least I thought I did.
There are a lot of places where the flying can be more difficult than in PNG. I guess it's all relative to where you're from. There is a hell of a lot you need to learn to cope with while flying there as well. Once you've been there a while it can be relatively easy. I appreciate that more now that I am not there.
As to the prepared landing sites comment, I deduced that he spent his time around the Moro area with OSL. Most of the ops there do involve flying to and from prepared sites. So do many other operations in the mining sectors. The days of landing in remote areas, stream sampling, dropping advance parties into the jungle from the skids etc., seem to be long gone. The company health & safety regimes have put paid to that.
Try to keep an open mind. He did say he was not trying to sound too superior
There are a lot of places where the flying can be more difficult than in PNG. I guess it's all relative to where you're from. There is a hell of a lot you need to learn to cope with while flying there as well. Once you've been there a while it can be relatively easy. I appreciate that more now that I am not there.
As to the prepared landing sites comment, I deduced that he spent his time around the Moro area with OSL. Most of the ops there do involve flying to and from prepared sites. So do many other operations in the mining sectors. The days of landing in remote areas, stream sampling, dropping advance parties into the jungle from the skids etc., seem to be long gone. The company health & safety regimes have put paid to that.
Try to keep an open mind. He did say he was not trying to sound too superior
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Im with steve, I thought PNG was pretty ordinary. the toughest part about working there was getting out of the country on time. There is no pressure there as the demand for pilots is high, there is no hourly flight pay, and most everybody is late all the time any way! you would be hard pressed to get fired from any company in PNG. that said It is one of the most bueatiful and unusual places Ive ever been. If you think PNG is a very difficult place to fly you have never been anywhere but Aus. or NZ!
I didnt feel any client or company pressure, maybe thats just me but when your not getting paid by the hr, the companys are hard up for pilots ( therefore odds of getting canned are low) and everybody is late all the time anyway how in the world could there be any pressure? The flying was pretty average, and there are not very many off site landings, I guess it could be pretty challenging if your idea of an uniproved landing site is grass! Very bueatiful and unusual place
Lookimyou
I didnt feel any client or company pressure, maybe thats just me but when your not getting paid by the hr, the companys are hard up for pilots ( therefore odds of getting canned are low) and everybody is late all the time anyway how in the world could there be any pressure? The flying was pretty average, and there are not very many off site landings, I guess it could be pretty challenging if your idea of an uniproved landing site is grass! Very bueatiful and unusual place
Lookimyou
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EBCAU
Rubbish.
You must have come down in the same shower as steve76.
There is plenti aerial wok bilong mixmasta that is still being carried out in PNG that requires hovering exits buy mutipile pax. No sign of a bush knife chainsaw or spade until after the inital insertion.
Not all the helo work there is being carried out in the oil patch with the highest public profile.
Wake up with your random blinkered comments people.
Blah blah. I will shut my pie hole now.
Rubbish.
You must have come down in the same shower as steve76.
There is plenti aerial wok bilong mixmasta that is still being carried out in PNG that requires hovering exits buy mutipile pax. No sign of a bush knife chainsaw or spade until after the inital insertion.
Not all the helo work there is being carried out in the oil patch with the highest public profile.
Wake up with your random blinkered comments people.
Blah blah. I will shut my pie hole now.
Last edited by Semi Rigid; 21st Nov 2006 at 08:06. Reason: Footnote added.
Semi Rigid is correct, insertions of pax from helos at the hover in confined areas or over steeply sloping terrain to unprepared sites is bread and butter stuff for most PNG heli pilots. It is for this one anyway. Although I would add there are an ever increasing number of PNG licensed pilots these days that don't actually have to fly in PNG, so by PNG heli pilots I mean those that actually have to fly in PNG and not elsewhere.
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Ya I know him, Hi Steve! no relation though, but I do share some of his
views about PNG. and I am deeply saddened by the needless loss of life due to accidents there this year. they should not have happened!
views about PNG. and I am deeply saddened by the needless loss of life due to accidents there this year. they should not have happened!
Well its only my opinion and I have plenty of that available. Perhaps it was my experience but I consider that landing in a village (hover exit or otherwise) or repeditive loads to OSL sites ain't hard. I guess if you have only worked in the outback and done any mountain work it might be exciting but I worked with a group of 'ex' NZ and CA drivers and they, to a man, agree verbally with what I say - or at least at the time..
I lurched around Porgera and seismic op's too and that was about the only stimulating feature to the place. I think the days of stream sampling (and what is overly HARD about that?) and remote area exploration are pretty much over. Most guys up there are flying OSL work, mag lines in the Astar, drills and seismic or loopy work out of Telokuma. Its an absolutely beautiful place and not the first time there nor my last time.
EBCAU: I have no idea who you are but cheers anyway for a reasonable opinion. Let me know who you are one day.
As for the rest of ya - abuse me if you like but I don't give a $hit about the opinion of ex-PNG pilots nor those who think it is all so bloody special. Seems you all have a need to make what you are doing seem too hard for everyone else to ensure you maintain your 'status' of a P...N...G pilot down in OZ. The good ol days are gone team and they ain't coming back. Enjoy your internal loads of critical cabbages up and down the rig sites.
YAWN...
I lurched around Porgera and seismic op's too and that was about the only stimulating feature to the place. I think the days of stream sampling (and what is overly HARD about that?) and remote area exploration are pretty much over. Most guys up there are flying OSL work, mag lines in the Astar, drills and seismic or loopy work out of Telokuma. Its an absolutely beautiful place and not the first time there nor my last time.
EBCAU: I have no idea who you are but cheers anyway for a reasonable opinion. Let me know who you are one day.
As for the rest of ya - abuse me if you like but I don't give a $hit about the opinion of ex-PNG pilots nor those who think it is all so bloody special. Seems you all have a need to make what you are doing seem too hard for everyone else to ensure you maintain your 'status' of a P...N...G pilot down in OZ. The good ol days are gone team and they ain't coming back. Enjoy your internal loads of critical cabbages up and down the rig sites.
YAWN...
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Steve 76, Kflexer
I believe you have some experience up there. I'm sure our paths would have crossed, but the good thing about these forums is the fact we can remain anonymous.
I haven't seen anything in some of the other posting which would let me guess where all that "skids on rocks" stuff is still happening. I'm sure it does on the odd occasion, but not like the "old days." That's why the Jetrangers and H500s are gone.
Lifting for an OGE take off is not too hard. It's what we're there for. Seismic pads are all prepared pads as far as I am concerned and yet the approaches can be difficult. Landing in a village isn't what I'd call an unprepared site either. I think some of these posters can't be long off the training school hover pattern.
Good for you kflexer, if you had no pressure on you. Were you guys around prior to the OSL take over from Chevron? Did you experience the regime then? The one with a certain swamp dweller from the Deep South boasting about all the pilots he had "run off" from the project? And he was ably abetted by his Canadian wingman. Half of a certain companies pilots probably experienced that, and the other half just didn't want to go there. There's a subject for a separate thread I reckon. Luckily neither of them survived the take over but there's one example of some pressure - it can take many forms.
Well, looks like we cant find out more about the accident through here. Ill just have to ask through other channels.
I believe you have some experience up there. I'm sure our paths would have crossed, but the good thing about these forums is the fact we can remain anonymous.
I haven't seen anything in some of the other posting which would let me guess where all that "skids on rocks" stuff is still happening. I'm sure it does on the odd occasion, but not like the "old days." That's why the Jetrangers and H500s are gone.
Lifting for an OGE take off is not too hard. It's what we're there for. Seismic pads are all prepared pads as far as I am concerned and yet the approaches can be difficult. Landing in a village isn't what I'd call an unprepared site either. I think some of these posters can't be long off the training school hover pattern.
Good for you kflexer, if you had no pressure on you. Were you guys around prior to the OSL take over from Chevron? Did you experience the regime then? The one with a certain swamp dweller from the Deep South boasting about all the pilots he had "run off" from the project? And he was ably abetted by his Canadian wingman. Half of a certain companies pilots probably experienced that, and the other half just didn't want to go there. There's a subject for a separate thread I reckon. Luckily neither of them survived the take over but there's one example of some pressure - it can take many forms.
Well, looks like we cant find out more about the accident through here. Ill just have to ask through other channels.
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EBCAU, Word is poor weather but thats not official.
Steve 76, Flying around the lease, pjv, tgm and seismic camps were you are very familar with the landscape isn't that hard but flying around the country to places you havn't been before, in the wet, is very demanding. you might find out one day if the company you work for deems you able to do some of these jobs and lets you have a go.
Steve 76, Flying around the lease, pjv, tgm and seismic camps were you are very familar with the landscape isn't that hard but flying around the country to places you havn't been before, in the wet, is very demanding. you might find out one day if the company you work for deems you able to do some of these jobs and lets you have a go.
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Thanks someplace.
It generally is the weather that's hard to deal with. At least it's a bit helpful to know that there's no other obvious failings.
A sad affair, but I guess that's the nature of the game.
It generally is the weather that's hard to deal with. At least it's a bit helpful to know that there's no other obvious failings.
A sad affair, but I guess that's the nature of the game.
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I agree someplace.
EBCAU-word on the street is that he may have been between 2 layers of cloud.After Tabubil-Waiotape,Fane & Tolukuma area would have some of the most rapidly changeable weather in PNG.
Got a mayday call out but it went unanswered.He had an IFR endorsement.Machine went in with power on.Another helicopter tradgedy in PNG but for my money you are going to see a few more yet with some of the muppets being employed up there with zero mountain time & even less WEATHER experience not too mention underslung load time.
Remember mountain time is considered to be operations above 8000'. Operating at these altitudes you are definately going to get changeable weather.Does Australia even have anything above 7-8 grand? The Aussie licence doesn't even have a mountain flying prerequesite for the licence issue!
What's my point?
You keep sticking mildly experienced pilots from Australia into that mountainous and weather critical environment that is mainland PNG then be prepared to accept the consequences.
EBCAU-word on the street is that he may have been between 2 layers of cloud.After Tabubil-Waiotape,Fane & Tolukuma area would have some of the most rapidly changeable weather in PNG.
Got a mayday call out but it went unanswered.He had an IFR endorsement.Machine went in with power on.Another helicopter tradgedy in PNG but for my money you are going to see a few more yet with some of the muppets being employed up there with zero mountain time & even less WEATHER experience not too mention underslung load time.
Remember mountain time is considered to be operations above 8000'. Operating at these altitudes you are definately going to get changeable weather.Does Australia even have anything above 7-8 grand? The Aussie licence doesn't even have a mountain flying prerequesite for the licence issue!
What's my point?
You keep sticking mildly experienced pilots from Australia into that mountainous and weather critical environment that is mainland PNG then be prepared to accept the consequences.