Training Bond
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Merlin,
I guess it depends what size company your working for and how many employees they are worried about losing out to. However, a few years back I was working for a smallish on-shore operator and was bonded pro-rata for 2 years for types and an IR. Both parties were very happy with this.
I do get the impression that 3 seems nearer the norm on a pro rata basis, but trends can change quickly in this industry.
Rushes
I guess it depends what size company your working for and how many employees they are worried about losing out to. However, a few years back I was working for a smallish on-shore operator and was bonded pro-rata for 2 years for types and an IR. Both parties were very happy with this.
I do get the impression that 3 seems nearer the norm on a pro rata basis, but trends can change quickly in this industry.
Rushes
Avoid imitations
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In a previous job I was bonded for £30K for two years. I accepted it at the time, so as far as I was concerned it was legal and stood. I did the two years and forgot all about it.
A bond is only relevent and unreasonable if you want to leave before the bonding period is up and want to use the rating/training as a stepping stone.
A bond is only relevent and unreasonable if you want to leave before the bonding period is up and want to use the rating/training as a stepping stone.
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Training Bonds
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons.....
I understand that the EU court have ruled that training bonds are a 'restrictive practice' and therefore they are illegal.
Would like to hear from someone with a legal background to see if this is true!
Flying Lawyer????
bondu
I understand that the EU court have ruled that training bonds are a 'restrictive practice' and therefore they are illegal.
Would like to hear from someone with a legal background to see if this is true!
Flying Lawyer????
bondu
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Good Employers?
I know companies spend money on training and people leave. But if a company is putting a huge bond on you, ask yourself why. If it is because they have been stung in the past, why did those people leave? It strikes me a "good employer" should not suffer much churn, so training costs are not excessive, and huge bonds are not necessary. If on the other hand....well you know what I am saying.
Stuck with a poor employer for 5yrs with a huge financial commitment is not a good place to be, if it is a last resort then take it, but remember there is a shortage of helo pilots and there is a choice. The more we accept poor conditions the worse they will get. It can be difficult to start but it is getting better.
Stuck with a poor employer for 5yrs with a huge financial commitment is not a good place to be, if it is a last resort then take it, but remember there is a shortage of helo pilots and there is a choice. The more we accept poor conditions the worse they will get. It can be difficult to start but it is getting better.
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controller,
Piloting helicopters is the same as any other industry, whether it be vets, doctors or plumbers. From time to time they will all suffer a shortage of suitably qualified people just as is the case now with helo pilots. Whether you can see it or not there clearly is a shortage and demand is high for qualified people.
There is no 'worthwhile' industry in the world where demand is high for newbies. As with any of the above professions if some half baked fool thinks just because s/he's got a law degree or a corgi registration or a CPL(H) s/he's going to walk right into a top-line job that's their own dumb lookout. Any employer wants the person who fought hard to get their first rung on the ladder not the arrogant jerk who feels s/he's just going to walk right in.
If there are people out there who go and sign up for a CPL(H) purely on the strength that someone once said there is a shortage of pilots they deserve to be right royally taken for a ride. I would like to hope anyone smart enough to pass the CPL exams is smart enough to research what they're commiting to and how in the long run they plan to get there.
Your comments made me think of all those signs you see across the US advising people not to lick metal ski lifts in winter or put fingers in the toaster. Do we really need to protect people from themselves even here on a chat forum
R1tamer
Piloting helicopters is the same as any other industry, whether it be vets, doctors or plumbers. From time to time they will all suffer a shortage of suitably qualified people just as is the case now with helo pilots. Whether you can see it or not there clearly is a shortage and demand is high for qualified people.
There is no 'worthwhile' industry in the world where demand is high for newbies. As with any of the above professions if some half baked fool thinks just because s/he's got a law degree or a corgi registration or a CPL(H) s/he's going to walk right into a top-line job that's their own dumb lookout. Any employer wants the person who fought hard to get their first rung on the ladder not the arrogant jerk who feels s/he's just going to walk right in.
If there are people out there who go and sign up for a CPL(H) purely on the strength that someone once said there is a shortage of pilots they deserve to be right royally taken for a ride. I would like to hope anyone smart enough to pass the CPL exams is smart enough to research what they're commiting to and how in the long run they plan to get there.
Your comments made me think of all those signs you see across the US advising people not to lick metal ski lifts in winter or put fingers in the toaster. Do we really need to protect people from themselves even here on a chat forum
R1tamer
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What if the Employers change their mind???
Totally agree with the 'bonding prevents pilots leaving' comments, but what if the company agree to bond you for one thing, then change their minds and use the bond to force you into accepting a posting you never wanted?
Just a thought. The EU ruling does exist, and now has a 'precedent' status - will be ending up in a court sometime soon myself over this, will post the outcome to all!
Safe skies, happy homes!
Just a thought. The EU ruling does exist, and now has a 'precedent' status - will be ending up in a court sometime soon myself over this, will post the outcome to all!
Safe skies, happy homes!
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speaking from personal, and recent, experience. training bonds are not worth the paper there're written on!!!
if a company wants to bond you they are admitting they are not providing the conditions and pay to make you stay of your own accord. so they force you to stay.
If a company says 'we need you to do a job on a particular aircraft' then the decision is on them to provide you with the appropriate training to conduct the job they require of you. the days of feeling guilty from receiving an aircraft rating are over.
if an accountant received training to operate a new computer system would there be a training bond... i think not.
i'm working for a company who is changing fleet type. it wasn't my decision to change, if they want to get a new type then they need to provide the training!!
some of you newbies need to know your worth!!!
nuff sed!
if a company wants to bond you they are admitting they are not providing the conditions and pay to make you stay of your own accord. so they force you to stay.
If a company says 'we need you to do a job on a particular aircraft' then the decision is on them to provide you with the appropriate training to conduct the job they require of you. the days of feeling guilty from receiving an aircraft rating are over.
if an accountant received training to operate a new computer system would there be a training bond... i think not.
i'm working for a company who is changing fleet type. it wasn't my decision to change, if they want to get a new type then they need to provide the training!!
some of you newbies need to know your worth!!!
nuff sed!
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What about the case where you signed a bond and are happily doing your time on the type. The company then decides to re-fleet and re-bonds you from scratch?
Basically you don't have a choice do you? Well thats whats happening to us.
Would you sign?
Basically you don't have a choice do you? Well thats whats happening to us.
Would you sign?
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We bond for three years on a reducing scale for the first type we put you on. After that any extra types are because the company needs you on that type and we don't bond for them. We started bonding after being used as a free source of type ratings by a couple of unscrupulous pilots. I've never heard a pilot complain about the bonding system we use, then again I've never known one leave during the bond period.
I've heard the so called "square bond" is rearing it's ugly head again, and I doubt the legality of such bonds. I've spoken to an employment expert in the last few minutes about this subject and she tells me that it is very difficult to make any bond stand up in court and a "square bond" almost impossible.
Aviation is one of very few industries to use bonding, and from what I have seen the system is more used to b***er up the futures of people who just walk out. The phone call between chief pilots, "Yes he's a lovely chap, but he left and still owes his bond." will always leave a doubt over the head of anyone who just leaves.
As for the training cost on the 135, about £ 15 000 is pretty accurate, but should be factored at £ 417 per month over the three years. Still having to pay the full amount after 35 months strikes me as mighty unfair.
I've heard the so called "square bond" is rearing it's ugly head again, and I doubt the legality of such bonds. I've spoken to an employment expert in the last few minutes about this subject and she tells me that it is very difficult to make any bond stand up in court and a "square bond" almost impossible.
Aviation is one of very few industries to use bonding, and from what I have seen the system is more used to b***er up the futures of people who just walk out. The phone call between chief pilots, "Yes he's a lovely chap, but he left and still owes his bond." will always leave a doubt over the head of anyone who just leaves.
As for the training cost on the 135, about £ 15 000 is pretty accurate, but should be factored at £ 417 per month over the three years. Still having to pay the full amount after 35 months strikes me as mighty unfair.
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In my experience the bonding contract in worth nothing. I have had colleges leave and never pay anything back to the company. The company has not even chased them up for it...
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Legal or not if you break a bond and bugger off you are a marked man and the industry, being fairly small, will know all about it.
It is people accepting a course of training and leaving before giving a fair return of service that have caused bonds to be introduced in the first place.
The next step after bonding is being asked to pay for your type rating and line training as a condition of employment, also a 'restrictive practice' I would have thought but it happens, so I wouldn't be banking too much on a claim of restrictive practice to get me out of repaying a bond that I had agreed to in the first place and signed a contract to that effect.
Better to go into the office and discuss it, make an offer, offer instalments etc. I worked for a company that aggressively pursued bond breakers but gave some very good terms to a couple of guys who made settlement offers. Another chap with strong compassionate grounds was allowed to walk away for free, owing nearly four years of bond.
Remember, if you break a bond not only are you screwing it up for everyone else but you will probably find it will come back to bite you later in your working life, a career, as such, may not be possible.
It is people accepting a course of training and leaving before giving a fair return of service that have caused bonds to be introduced in the first place.
The next step after bonding is being asked to pay for your type rating and line training as a condition of employment, also a 'restrictive practice' I would have thought but it happens, so I wouldn't be banking too much on a claim of restrictive practice to get me out of repaying a bond that I had agreed to in the first place and signed a contract to that effect.
Better to go into the office and discuss it, make an offer, offer instalments etc. I worked for a company that aggressively pursued bond breakers but gave some very good terms to a couple of guys who made settlement offers. Another chap with strong compassionate grounds was allowed to walk away for free, owing nearly four years of bond.
Remember, if you break a bond not only are you screwing it up for everyone else but you will probably find it will come back to bite you later in your working life, a career, as such, may not be possible.
Last edited by parabellum; 9th Feb 2010 at 09:57.
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Just a thought from another industry, but it's not just aviation that does this. I work in embedded systems / electronics, for a company involved in consumer electronics and silicon IP - if none of this makes sense, call it 'high tech' - where qualified people are not easy to find. The standard expectation is that people will be well educated before they get to us, although we do take on fresh-out-of-training folk and build them up, so not entirely like aviation. The company is a mid-size multi-national corporate.
If the company sends us on a course, which they pay for (generally something required for us to do our jobs), you enter into an agreement with the company to reimburse them if you leave within a certain period afterwards. The exact period varies depending on the cost, and reduces over time, and you agree that the company can recover the monies from your final paycheck. This is not unusual in this industry.
Of course, the average course doesn't run much more than a few £k, and the average monthly salary here is at least that, so there's actually some chance of the company being able to collect. It's probably a bit different when the amounts are up in the tens of thousands...
If the company sends us on a course, which they pay for (generally something required for us to do our jobs), you enter into an agreement with the company to reimburse them if you leave within a certain period afterwards. The exact period varies depending on the cost, and reduces over time, and you agree that the company can recover the monies from your final paycheck. This is not unusual in this industry.
Of course, the average course doesn't run much more than a few £k, and the average monthly salary here is at least that, so there's actually some chance of the company being able to collect. It's probably a bit different when the amounts are up in the tens of thousands...
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Anon
Snoogle, Northwest floater is correct, have same experience. Also will your career stand still over the Bond period? Will you have the opportunity for further courses, I/R, TRI/TRE etc. or will you be expected to remain at your current status and position without progression?
Try and avoid the Bonds and take a bank loan, keeps your modus-operandi entirely flexible....hope thats useful..
Try and avoid the Bonds and take a bank loan, keeps your modus-operandi entirely flexible....hope thats useful..
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Most labor laws state that training that make profit for a company is unbondable.
However training for personnal grow could be.
More over a company that I have worked for get around this they offered pilot's type training if they sign a personnal loan over a 2 year period which decreases monthly. That way if the pilot left before 2 years they got some money back if he stayed they got him for 2 years. It seems fair
However training for personnal grow could be.
More over a company that I have worked for get around this they offered pilot's type training if they sign a personnal loan over a 2 year period which decreases monthly. That way if the pilot left before 2 years they got some money back if he stayed they got him for 2 years. It seems fair
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Training Contracts
Hello All,
Does anyone have any experience with training contracts for Part 135 helicopter operators in the US?
I have just started with a company who sort of "surprised" me with one which was not part of the initial offer. I am now trying to gather some information.
My plan is NOT to leave the company anytime soon, and certainly not within the year they are concerned about, but I would still like to know what I can about the legalities, or illegalities of such a thing.
Thanks for your posts. Fly safely.
Scott
Does anyone have any experience with training contracts for Part 135 helicopter operators in the US?
I have just started with a company who sort of "surprised" me with one which was not part of the initial offer. I am now trying to gather some information.
My plan is NOT to leave the company anytime soon, and certainly not within the year they are concerned about, but I would still like to know what I can about the legalities, or illegalities of such a thing.
Thanks for your posts. Fly safely.
Scott