Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?
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Chaps, I think we might have a small amount of confusion creeping in. No one, that I can see, on this thread has really attacked the Police units. They do a different job to the one this thread relates to.
Secondly, the military training is good and has matured through hard learned lessons from all over the world - remember its better to learn from someone else's experience than your own! However, now it is as cost effective as possible but still delivering the required standard as dictated by the military end user - and before someone attacks that statement I mean we pay as low a rate as possible for the training we demand is provided not, we could do it completely differently and cheaper see next paragraph!
The future, well, we could change the way we do business. You could stream line the training by serving as a winchmen for the first 3-years then moving on to become a winch operator. This will allow a huge amount of on the job training. Remember, we pile a load of training into the winch operator at the moment because he has to be able to do the job on his very first shift - as do the rest of the crew - but, he is the pivotal lynchpin to a crew working well or just adequately - no I am not a winch op I am a pilot!
Do we over train? Possibly, but you have to look at the raw material we start with. You can't write an essay if you don't know the alphabet! Please, do not red pen this post like others on the military forum!!!! So, we start with the very basics and work up to how to safely cut corners. If you go straight to the operational stuff you DO miss why your doing something and it could come back to bite! Or not? And there is the question? Overtrain and cover all bases, or take a risk and only train for some?
Now, who can do the training in the future?
Well, there are other places to train, there are places here too. But with SAR-H we will inevitably have a joint civil and miltary school - yes, there will be military personnel in future SAR.
Lets try constructive comments rather than we are better than you or vice versa - we are all the same we just do it differently [well a bit differently].
Secondly, the military training is good and has matured through hard learned lessons from all over the world - remember its better to learn from someone else's experience than your own! However, now it is as cost effective as possible but still delivering the required standard as dictated by the military end user - and before someone attacks that statement I mean we pay as low a rate as possible for the training we demand is provided not, we could do it completely differently and cheaper see next paragraph!
The future, well, we could change the way we do business. You could stream line the training by serving as a winchmen for the first 3-years then moving on to become a winch operator. This will allow a huge amount of on the job training. Remember, we pile a load of training into the winch operator at the moment because he has to be able to do the job on his very first shift - as do the rest of the crew - but, he is the pivotal lynchpin to a crew working well or just adequately - no I am not a winch op I am a pilot!
Do we over train? Possibly, but you have to look at the raw material we start with. You can't write an essay if you don't know the alphabet! Please, do not red pen this post like others on the military forum!!!! So, we start with the very basics and work up to how to safely cut corners. If you go straight to the operational stuff you DO miss why your doing something and it could come back to bite! Or not? And there is the question? Overtrain and cover all bases, or take a risk and only train for some?
Now, who can do the training in the future?
Well, there are other places to train, there are places here too. But with SAR-H we will inevitably have a joint civil and miltary school - yes, there will be military personnel in future SAR.
Lets try constructive comments rather than we are better than you or vice versa - we are all the same we just do it differently [well a bit differently].
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The suggestion that CHC or indeed any other company will not be able to find adequately trained rearcrew to support SAR in the UK is hard to believe. CHC who have the task now to support the newly won CG interim contract have provided SAR in Ireland for some years now without any bother and additionally is a worldwide helicopter organisation with other SAR untis abroad. So why should UK companies have problems with SAR reacrew recruitment and training in the UK, when SAR is done happily by civvies in 90% of the rest of the world?
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whopperchopper
After you dropped in a couple of rumours thought i would do some checking of my own. From a mil SAR man who knows the Jigsaw setup (hello Matron!) yes there are changes in progress! Not quite what you thought though......interestingly their rearcrew leader has been promoted and moving to the Bond HQ (show me that happening at Bristow/CHC!) and interviews have already started for his successor with three names that i have already heard of so it must be a good position!!
If you look back at the old Jigsaw thread that was full of 'who is going to do the rearcrew training' question, well it happened without the need of us 'experts' and yet here we are again talking about CHC and their problem?
Get over it guys, CHC, Bond and Bristows are full of ex mil sar so whats the beef??
I for one am not afraid of 2012.
DS
If you look back at the old Jigsaw thread that was full of 'who is going to do the rearcrew training' question, well it happened without the need of us 'experts' and yet here we are again talking about CHC and their problem?
Get over it guys, CHC, Bond and Bristows are full of ex mil sar so whats the beef??
I for one am not afraid of 2012.
DS
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Doorstopper
Another who makes like he is in the know, if it is such a good position as chief crewman of Bond then why didn't his No2 take the job ,instead they have to interview others to fill a void.
As for ex mil doing SAR i agree , but my point is there is a shortage of qualified SAR rearcrew and this will lead to poaching between the 2 main players left in the UK SAR market.
If you were in a position to appoint a crewman would you settle for second best or would you take the cream from another company???
As for ex mil doing SAR i agree , but my point is there is a shortage of qualified SAR rearcrew and this will lead to poaching between the 2 main players left in the UK SAR market.
If you were in a position to appoint a crewman would you settle for second best or would you take the cream from another company???
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Who's doing basic sar rearcrew trg
So were was the advert for the Bond chief crewmans position or was it like the initial Bond recruiting? Namely if you were under a certain age and a friend of the chief crewman you were in. Of course being ex Navy helped as well!
Forward 40 Winching out, Steady.
Forward 40 Winching out, Steady.
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Originally Posted by whopperchopper
Another who makes like he is in the know, if it is such a good position as chief crewman of Bond then why didn't his No2 take the job ,instead they have to interview others to fill a void.
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Can someone explain to me the requirement for years of training for rear crew...
What exactly is involved?
I fly on a SAR program myself (PIC) with a winch op and 2 winchmen (PJ’s)
It’s my 3rd time as PIC on Maritime and Mountain SAR over the years, with 3 different companies. I’m confused about what kind of training your guys are getting in the UK.
We have regular crew training sessions with no real time limit imposed, more or less train to proficiency ....
I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s role...We have a crew concept, and obviously have more and less experienced guys in different roles as winch-op, winchguy1, winchguy2 etc...
But I can’t understand the years of training involved...? Someone mentioned 2.5 years
Yes...bad wx and blowing hard!... it’s nice to have a smooth and panickproof crew out back, but these are basic character traits, reinforced with good training and some experience.
But I guess I think of rearcrew training to be something in the order of weeks of training, depending on tasking.......followed by extensive OTJ training in a junior position.
I have a junior guy in one of our rearcrews (Don’t know exactly how much experience he has, except he’s junior to the others..I know the winch-op has seven years as a winch-op though)
But given my druthers... on a difficult job..It'd be my choice to have him (Junior) do everything if I could...Not that the others are lacking in any way...just that he’s an outstanding character, and somehow, when he’s playing winch-op on a training run. Everything goes like clockwork. I can't explain why, or quantify/clarify his abilities
Again, I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s input or skills. Just looking I suppose, for idea’s to lift our own game, if in fact anything’s missing?
Thanks for any constructive input! Maybe someone could summarize what's involved in UK training. How the training time is utilized?
Thanks....
What exactly is involved?
I fly on a SAR program myself (PIC) with a winch op and 2 winchmen (PJ’s)
It’s my 3rd time as PIC on Maritime and Mountain SAR over the years, with 3 different companies. I’m confused about what kind of training your guys are getting in the UK.
We have regular crew training sessions with no real time limit imposed, more or less train to proficiency ....
I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s role...We have a crew concept, and obviously have more and less experienced guys in different roles as winch-op, winchguy1, winchguy2 etc...
But I can’t understand the years of training involved...? Someone mentioned 2.5 years
Yes...bad wx and blowing hard!... it’s nice to have a smooth and panickproof crew out back, but these are basic character traits, reinforced with good training and some experience.
But I guess I think of rearcrew training to be something in the order of weeks of training, depending on tasking.......followed by extensive OTJ training in a junior position.
I have a junior guy in one of our rearcrews (Don’t know exactly how much experience he has, except he’s junior to the others..I know the winch-op has seven years as a winch-op though)
But given my druthers... on a difficult job..It'd be my choice to have him (Junior) do everything if I could...Not that the others are lacking in any way...just that he’s an outstanding character, and somehow, when he’s playing winch-op on a training run. Everything goes like clockwork. I can't explain why, or quantify/clarify his abilities
Again, I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s input or skills. Just looking I suppose, for idea’s to lift our own game, if in fact anything’s missing?
Thanks for any constructive input! Maybe someone could summarize what's involved in UK training. How the training time is utilized?
Thanks....
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Doorstopper
As to flawed information, i think you had better check yours out, rumour has it the chief crewman at Bond does have a number 2 and he didn't want the top job as he is looking elsewhere...erm where could that be .... CHC perhaps.
Wiretensioner
That talk is to political as if that would happen!!! he he he
If that is the case then all the RAF lads can work for CHC.
Wiretensioner
That talk is to political as if that would happen!!! he he he
If that is the case then all the RAF lads can work for CHC.
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So, which ones are the constructive comments then?
Lets face it, if the need becomes desperate someone will train people to do the job either here or overseas - be that CHC, Bond or Bristows. Ok, you might not get experienced people but hey, every body starts somewhere! Then problem goes away. [Perhaps] Steps back ........
Lets face it, if the need becomes desperate someone will train people to do the job either here or overseas - be that CHC, Bond or Bristows. Ok, you might not get experienced people but hey, every body starts somewhere! Then problem goes away. [Perhaps] Steps back ........
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SARREMF
Of course there will always be a solution. The usual suspects in the UK SAR game will find a way of putting bums on seats in the back of the helicopters. And I will be the first to agree that the old fashioned training and selection regimes are in need of change - there is now neither the money or the hours to give guys 5/6 month conversion courses, etc. That said, if you are going to cut corners it is even more important that the right people are selected in the first place.
Sadly, it is often the truth that weaknesses in someone's ability rarely show-up until the pressure is on. Therefore, it is vital that you seek quality training opportunities that allow crews to face realistic situations. This is the balance that Chief Pilots and Crewmen Ldrs have to meet - low risk, challenging training events that benefit the whole crew.
I am a big fan of the Voice Marshalling VR Trainer and have seen it in use at both SARTU and Shawbury. It is an ideal tool to introduce and practice VM for Winch Ops and the latest software upgrade has introduced a pretty good sea model that includes some tricky decks. The use of this kit in harness with a focussed flying training programme will produce good basic Winch Ops. I should add that I don't have shares with VP Defence and have nothing to gain by promoting their kit
Of course there will always be a solution. The usual suspects in the UK SAR game will find a way of putting bums on seats in the back of the helicopters. And I will be the first to agree that the old fashioned training and selection regimes are in need of change - there is now neither the money or the hours to give guys 5/6 month conversion courses, etc. That said, if you are going to cut corners it is even more important that the right people are selected in the first place.
Sadly, it is often the truth that weaknesses in someone's ability rarely show-up until the pressure is on. Therefore, it is vital that you seek quality training opportunities that allow crews to face realistic situations. This is the balance that Chief Pilots and Crewmen Ldrs have to meet - low risk, challenging training events that benefit the whole crew.
I am a big fan of the Voice Marshalling VR Trainer and have seen it in use at both SARTU and Shawbury. It is an ideal tool to introduce and practice VM for Winch Ops and the latest software upgrade has introduced a pretty good sea model that includes some tricky decks. The use of this kit in harness with a focussed flying training programme will produce good basic Winch Ops. I should add that I don't have shares with VP Defence and have nothing to gain by promoting their kit
Just Dropped In
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In short......someone will! 
It's a question that keeps being asked! & one day someone will have to take the plunge & start ab-nitio winch crew training! That's kind of inevitable! So...what will they look for in likely candidates!??
Winching experience, medical ability & qualifications, navigation, airmanship....to name but a few! Well....this is going to be ab-nitio training....so we're unlikely to find many applicants with winching experience! But....we may find the medical skills we're looking for! Paramedics, Mountain Rescue Team Personnel & other emrgency services personnel!
These people will have worked in high stress enviroments before & therefore have a good chance of having the right characteristics to work well in the air!
The course will have to be a balance of necessary training vs costs! That's a fact everyone has to face! There are enough experienced people to come to those decisions as & when!
One thing that will have to be taken into account is the work that these guys will have to do! Never belittle a SARcrewman!! Whoever does decide to undertake the training needs to tread carefully!
As for the ever popular discussion of who's who in SAR.....I'm ex-navy! But in all honesty.....when it comes to SAR give me a crewman from the Irish Aer Corps everytime! But with the wealth of experience from all walks of life civilian SAR has.....I'm confident that the training will be comprehensive & professional!
It's a question that keeps being asked! & one day someone will have to take the plunge & start ab-nitio winch crew training! That's kind of inevitable! So...what will they look for in likely candidates!??
Winching experience, medical ability & qualifications, navigation, airmanship....to name but a few! Well....this is going to be ab-nitio training....so we're unlikely to find many applicants with winching experience! But....we may find the medical skills we're looking for! Paramedics, Mountain Rescue Team Personnel & other emrgency services personnel!
These people will have worked in high stress enviroments before & therefore have a good chance of having the right characteristics to work well in the air!
The course will have to be a balance of necessary training vs costs! That's a fact everyone has to face! There are enough experienced people to come to those decisions as & when!
One thing that will have to be taken into account is the work that these guys will have to do! Never belittle a SARcrewman!! Whoever does decide to undertake the training needs to tread carefully!
As for the ever popular discussion of who's who in SAR.....I'm ex-navy! But in all honesty.....when it comes to SAR give me a crewman from the Irish Aer Corps everytime! But with the wealth of experience from all walks of life civilian SAR has.....I'm confident that the training will be comprehensive & professional!
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SAR rearcrew training
Whilst people are obvioulsy worried about the standards in what is a high risk and stress environment, I think there ARE ways of solving the problem. Take the latest example for example, BOND with Jigsaw, they took paramedics and indeed people off the street and trained them to be winchmen. Whats wrong with that? They were given a full course and then time in role. It's the same for the pilots, copilot gains experience in role then later does a year of training in the right hand seat (Bristows).
The best way to learn is from those with experience, and that is done in role day in day out. And whilst we still have ex Mil drivers and W'Ops why not gain as much from their experience as possible, both for the Winchmen and Copilots.
I understand people have reservations about a new way of doing something, but the people actually doing the training have a vested interest in doing it properly. End of the day those trainers and trainees might be out on a dark and dingy night, and will need the full crew working properly. Yes the companies (Except Bond maybe with the BP budget to support) will want to do it as cheaply as is feasable, otherwise they would loose money.
My last thought is whilst we may not have a perfect solution, I think all three (Bond, CHC, Bristow) are working out the kinks to improve what they have. Should they not be given a chance to sort it?
The best way to learn is from those with experience, and that is done in role day in day out. And whilst we still have ex Mil drivers and W'Ops why not gain as much from their experience as possible, both for the Winchmen and Copilots.
I understand people have reservations about a new way of doing something, but the people actually doing the training have a vested interest in doing it properly. End of the day those trainers and trainees might be out on a dark and dingy night, and will need the full crew working properly. Yes the companies (Except Bond maybe with the BP budget to support) will want to do it as cheaply as is feasable, otherwise they would loose money.
My last thought is whilst we may not have a perfect solution, I think all three (Bond, CHC, Bristow) are working out the kinks to improve what they have. Should they not be given a chance to sort it?
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And it came to pass that constructive comments were made.
At last chaps, we have some real opinions with value! Not the expected "we have done it that way since 1952 so its right".
SARBALLAST, I wish I had said that! Couldn't agree more!
At last chaps, we have some real opinions with value! Not the expected "we have done it that way since 1952 so its right".
SARBALLAST, I wish I had said that! Couldn't agree more!
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Training SAR Crews
Its good to see that this thread has stopped being a s**t throwing competition between ex RAF ex RN crews. 
Lads lets face the fact's here the pools of SAR rear crew have rapidly dried up and someone is going to have to bite the bullet and start training crewmen/persons from scratch, given the correct training syllabus.
In every civil SAR organization there is a wealth of experience in both SAR and ab-intio training as soon as the company's involved start smelling the roses on this issue the better, as we will be faced in the not to distant future with a real lack of crews. Not to mention 2012.
In July 2007 CHC will find themselves needing at least 10 crewmen to operate the UK CG contract, thats providing that the Bristows lads decide to stay!!! Will they? No one knows except them..
As some people have already said there is allot of people out there who would love to become a Crewman/person, I have often seen posts on PPrune of people asking who would train them up, so no shortage out there. (don't know why they would want to!!)
And other people have said civil SAR cant train them up BLA BLA BLA, and to be quite frank they are the lads who just have to realize that CHANGE is not always a bad thing
As for the whole RN RAF argument, Roofus i could not agree with you more cheers man..
Lads lets face the fact's here the pools of SAR rear crew have rapidly dried up and someone is going to have to bite the bullet and start training crewmen/persons from scratch, given the correct training syllabus.
In every civil SAR organization there is a wealth of experience in both SAR and ab-intio training as soon as the company's involved start smelling the roses on this issue the better, as we will be faced in the not to distant future with a real lack of crews. Not to mention 2012.
In July 2007 CHC will find themselves needing at least 10 crewmen to operate the UK CG contract, thats providing that the Bristows lads decide to stay!!! Will they? No one knows except them..
As some people have already said there is allot of people out there who would love to become a Crewman/person, I have often seen posts on PPrune of people asking who would train them up, so no shortage out there. (don't know why they would want to!!)
And other people have said civil SAR cant train them up BLA BLA BLA, and to be quite frank they are the lads who just have to realize that CHANGE is not always a bad thing
As for the whole RN RAF argument, Roofus i could not agree with you more cheers man..
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So what kind of schedule do most of these SAR guys work? Is it so many weeks on and so many weeks off like some of the offshore types or do they work a normal type work week with a couple days off? Just curious at this point. I may be up for a change and this sounds interesting. I don't have any SAR specific experience but I have done plenty of precision long line work as a signalman both from the ground and from the AC. Not that that qualifies me for anything but it may be worth a shot. You'll never date the prom queen if you don't ask her out!
Max
Max
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Max
It all depends on what type of operation your looking at some i.e Jigsaw do one week on a rig, week off then a week on an Island then week off etc. Then the Real SAR lads do shift work mostly 24 hour shifts with reduced readiness inside the 24 hours, or you could be in a really cool base with loads of jobs packed into a 12 hour shift pattern.
You would have to look around but most of the working times and patterns are fairly good provided that the base establishment is up to scratch if not then your likely to be nailed to the aircraft, and the crewroom turns into your living room!!!!
It all depends on what type of operation your looking at some i.e Jigsaw do one week on a rig, week off then a week on an Island then week off etc. Then the Real SAR lads
do shift work mostly 24 hour shifts with reduced readiness inside the 24 hours, or you could be in a really cool base with loads of jobs packed into a 12 hour shift pattern.You would have to look around but most of the working times and patterns are fairly good provided that the base establishment is up to scratch if not then your likely to be nailed to the aircraft, and the crewroom turns into your living room!!!!
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I am not entirely sure what the Jigsaw routine is, but the guys I have spoken to it say its ok aside fromt he offshore stint. The Cabins in Sumburgh are nice and seem comfortable enough, but the Miller is just a platform with its opffshore issues for people.
The CG routine is 24 on 24 off for a varying number of rotations dependant on hours available. 1pm - 9pm (15 mins readyness) at the hangar, 9pm - 7:30am at home (45mins), 7:30am - 1pm back in hangar (15 mins).
The different shchemes work better or worse for different people, some like the CG way, some like the jigsaw. As with anything in life it depends on your own preference.
As has been said before, there WILL be a requirement for rear crew, not only for new/bigger contracts, but as the aging workforce starts retiring. And please dont go on about the Bond aircrew age, we know they are mostly young-middle aged
.
In short get in touch with the companies, get your CV on file and see what happens, same deal as if you are a pilot.
Good luck
The CG routine is 24 on 24 off for a varying number of rotations dependant on hours available. 1pm - 9pm (15 mins readyness) at the hangar, 9pm - 7:30am at home (45mins), 7:30am - 1pm back in hangar (15 mins).
The different shchemes work better or worse for different people, some like the CG way, some like the jigsaw. As with anything in life it depends on your own preference.
As has been said before, there WILL be a requirement for rear crew, not only for new/bigger contracts, but as the aging workforce starts retiring. And please dont go on about the Bond aircrew age, we know they are mostly young-middle aged
.In short get in touch with the companies, get your CV on file and see what happens, same deal as if you are a pilot.
Good luck