Aucky

Hi Guys, just wondering if it's normal, or considered ok to leave a helicopter running unmanned on certain types, or in certain parts of the world??

Granted I leave my car running when I get forget something, and it never drives off by itself, but something looks odd with regards to a chopper rotors running, unmanned. I know it's unlikely to take-off by itself (unless it's that r22 from last year), but i know some aircraft are fitted with control locks as opposed to frictions etc... Just wondering if it's common practice in some locations/types? It's not something i've seen done in my time here in the UK.



Aucky

Edit: not sure what the insurance company would say if it crashed itself

chopperchappie

Surely you wouldn't want to get out of any vehicle and leave it running in any of the following postcodes;

BS (Bristol)
M (Manchester)
L (Liverpool)
SW (SW London)
etc. etc.

fostaire

We as pilots must ALWAYS weigh the risks of our behavior. I have operated helicopter in the USA for about 34 years and know other countries have regulations that differ from ours. However, is it more dangerous to allow untrained personnel to approach a running (Bell, what I operate) helicopter than to have the pilot meet them at the rotor tip, brief them, and board them? The FAA has, years ago, published a document on just this subject matter, along with other subjects. Read AC 91-32B, specifically paragraph 7. sub C.. To those that ask about runaway turbines, hydraulic hardovers, ect. I say: "If I thought that way, I would never leave my bedroom." Sure they all can happen, so we may also die on the way to work, but a calculated risk management program will always go the path of least risk. For me, it is to have positive control of the passengers above the risk of a VERY RARE mechanical malfunction. Shuttiing down to latch a door in a remote area is also a greater risk than USING PROPER PROCEDURES of securing the A/C at idle, frictioning the controls, and closing the door! (PS, if you had disembarked the pax in the first place, the door would NOT have been unlatched?) These points don't take into account the turbine cycles, risk of hot start, battery relay failure, starter/gen failure. Of course these malfunctions would only be considered if you are the type person always looking for the worst case scenario. Other types of helicopters may not be as equipped to allow this operation, and the environment may also dictate not leaving the controls. In the end, it is up to you, the PIC to make the decision for that specific situation, constantly be a risk evaluator, and NEVER let your guard down!

CorsAir2

Hi all!
I guess all of you will agree with me: a pilot leaving an helicopter with both engine and rotor turning is never a safe action! But what would be the legal consequences, if any, as a result of such reckless behavior, regardless whether it occours as a result of an accident or not?

Just seen on the tube: Mera Peak helicopter (but it isn't the only!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfQ4...layer_embedded

Devil 49

Safe?... What is "safe"? A complete absence of hazard? Not possible or desirable.
One wants to minimize hazard and avoid unnecessary risk. If the helo is securely on deck, set at appropriate ground idle and controls secured against movement, does the PIC increase hazard by leaving the cockpit and surveying the landing area? Some operators think that's a bad idea, some have explicit requirements to allow it. I want the option, was taught the proper methods of doing so by the US Army.

Not a legal expert, but I believe the pilot and employer assume all responsibility for helicopter operation, including while the pilot is not at the controls,

belly tank

With all due respect...I do not agree with you Corsair...."Reckless!?" I don't see any issue here at all as the 350 has both Cyclic and Collective frictions and locks.

I have done it a thousand times myself in a previous life ,as have many others here on this forum.

I always have remained within the immediate vicinity of the machine to load pax / freight in a remote area which the regs and company SOP'S allow us to do.......different story if you left the machine and strolled away a few hundred metres for a pee or a smoke.

FH1100 Pilot

You guess wrong, CorsAir2.

Gordy

Yep, you guess wrong Corsair2.

It is still common practice in many parts of the US and is carried out under provisions provided by the FAA.

rotarywise

Unfortunately, such provisions do not apply in Europe. CAT.GEN.MPA130, NCC.GEN.125 and NCO.GEN.120 all say the same thing:

"A helicopter rotor shall only be turned under power for the purpose of flight with a qualified pilot at the controls"

I've done it plenty of times in the past but will think more than twice about doing it in the future. We can argue the semantics but it will be a difficult time at the inquest if it all goes t1ts up while you're outside the aircraft.

casper64

What about a governor runaway, a drive-shaft failure, engine fire, etc, etc. Sure, the chance of it happening are slim, but when it happens, YOU are responsible and not able to respond. I fully agree with the European rules on this one!

Michael Gee

Maybe the pilot thought it might not start again in the remote location. It has happend !

jeepys

I think there are many factors to consider and what may be deemed safe in one type is not safe in another.
Other factors to consider is weather. Would you leave a helo running in high winds with gusts?
Unfortunately there are a number of pruners that know of NB who died after being struck by his helo blades.
Not something I will be doing because if something goes wrong it's never going to be pretty and likely to result in serious injury or fatalities.

CorsAir2

Thanks to all for the answers!

Let me to specify the contest: I'm actually employed as flight instructor in Europe. After discussing similar videos proposed to me by some students, I gave to all of them specific order to avoid adopting such behavior according to Robinson 22 Safety Notice 17 and to EASA provisions (mentioned above by rotarywise) for their future employment in other helicopters. I personally never left the pilot seat while performing solo flights with rotors engaged-engine idle and no one of my flight instructors in the past were favorable about the issue.

So, are you still really sure that a similar action could be considered an acceptable habit?

What would you say to your students about it?

Nubian

Read the answers given to you. There are different regs in Europe and the US for instance and in the latter it is allowed. So, in Europe you teach your students NOT to do this as it is against rules. Then let the pilots operating under regs allowing this to do their thing.

I spend most of my 6-700 hours per year in the h/v curve in doing precision longline work. During my flightraining I was taught to stay out of the h/v curve. Is my line of work a bad practice then?

newfieboy

Common practice in Canada. It's in our ops manual,totally legal, idle, frictions on, we are able to hot refuel, load freight, pax etc. No way am I shutting down for fuel on the likes of Baffin Island, in polar bear country at -40c and a good chance no human habitation within 100's of miles. Very lonely feeling hauling up to Alert in probably some of the most inhospitable terrain in the world. I probably see no reason in the UK or Europe to be hot refuelling rotors turning, but Utility in Canada yes for sure as long as it's done safely.
Same as Nubian, most my 15500+hrs on the end of a longline in the HV curve. Can be done safely as long as you always have a plan and an out if it all goes Pete tong....

chopjock

rotarywise
All that means is only a qualified pilot may fly the aircraft!
Obviously if the blades are turning for the purpose of flying, you need a pilot in there or it won't fly properly.
However if the blades are turning with no pilot at the controls, clearly the purpose is not to fly!

whoknows idont

Interesting point. After all, it is legal under EASA regs for engineers (or whoever for that matter) to perform ground runs as long as he or she is designated by the operator and properly qualified. No pilots licence required (by law, might be by operators procedures).
However, if you keep the helicopter running for hot-refuelling, pax movement or what not, one might argue that it's still running for the purpose of subsequent flight.

chopjock

Except there is no "subsequent" in front of the word "flight."

GoodGrief

Try restarting an Allison engine at 12k MSL and +20°C. You'll wait for about 90 minutes before you can hit the button...

[email protected]

God knows we have been around this buoy several times in the past and never come to any agreed conclusion.

There are some places in the world where keeping it turning and burning is the most efficient and expeditious answer since a failure to restart would be a major problem for rescue.

Equally, there are some operations in some parts of the world that use this technique because it is easy - not because it is safe or proper but just because it is easy.

There is a sliding scale between these two points which is open to discussion - depends very much on your viewpoint and need to adopt such a practice.