SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Ah HM. l last flew her in the Falklands in February 1985. Also got many hours on her out of Aberdeen before that. Those were the days! Glad she let everyone get out before her demise.
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worth repairing?
Fortunately I could smile in the circumstances, when one of the news reports talked about engineers visiting the crash site to see if the helicopter could be repaired!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Excessive Downdraft during SAR Ops
Before I get flamed mightily.....
I have a massive amount of respect for the work done by the heli crews and the time from callout to attendance was less than 10 minutes in both cases which is outstanding service.
On two occasions in the last week I witnessed inconvenience caused by the downdraft from an RAF or Navy Seaking during relatively non-urgent SAR/coastguard operations.
The first situation was an unconsious man in an RIB following a colission between the RIB and a small boat in a river marina. The boat was already under tow and the man being looked after and the Air Ambulance already on scene. The Seaking hovered low over the marina causing two or three smallish RIBs (empty) to be flipped over by the downdraft meaning two of them lost their outboard engines to the bottom of the river.
The second was in a cliff rescue (person stuck 5m up a cliff over a sandy beach) With the situation under control and the cliff rescue team 3 minutes away a Seaking decided to hover low over the beach, in the process scattering a party of holidaymakers (with very young children) and there picnic to all the points of the compass.
My questions as an interested non-pilot are..
..how much are heli pilots aware of the major inconvenience that can be caused by the downdraft?
..Does it influence how they fly the chopper in an SAR situation?
..Do the services pick up the tab for any damage caused during ops by heli downdraft?
Deliberately been a bit vague about the location and situation to avoid making it a personal criticism of the pilot.
Many thanks
DeepC
I have a massive amount of respect for the work done by the heli crews and the time from callout to attendance was less than 10 minutes in both cases which is outstanding service.
On two occasions in the last week I witnessed inconvenience caused by the downdraft from an RAF or Navy Seaking during relatively non-urgent SAR/coastguard operations.
The first situation was an unconsious man in an RIB following a colission between the RIB and a small boat in a river marina. The boat was already under tow and the man being looked after and the Air Ambulance already on scene. The Seaking hovered low over the marina causing two or three smallish RIBs (empty) to be flipped over by the downdraft meaning two of them lost their outboard engines to the bottom of the river.
The second was in a cliff rescue (person stuck 5m up a cliff over a sandy beach) With the situation under control and the cliff rescue team 3 minutes away a Seaking decided to hover low over the beach, in the process scattering a party of holidaymakers (with very young children) and there picnic to all the points of the compass.
My questions as an interested non-pilot are..
..how much are heli pilots aware of the major inconvenience that can be caused by the downdraft?
..Does it influence how they fly the chopper in an SAR situation?
..Do the services pick up the tab for any damage caused during ops by heli downdraft?
Deliberately been a bit vague about the location and situation to avoid making it a personal criticism of the pilot.
Many thanks
DeepC
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It is pointless attempting to save/assist one person if you are going to cause damage or injury to others. From the information you have given it sounds as though these are cases of poor airmanship. The pilots and crewman of these aircraft should have a good picture of what is going on around them. if there was a need to recover the survivor from the boat , then it would be prudent to direct the vessel to a location that is clear of other vessels etc. As for causing damage on the beach, again there is no emergency that requires you to place the public at risk by flying in this fashion.
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Your in trouble..no matter what you do.
I don't want to comment on the both tasks.....
Therefore in general terms, one of the hardest and most challenging tasks of a "Highly" trained EMS or SAR crew, is when to say NO.
Generally EMS folk have pressures [real or implied] upon them, as they know that simply because they are called it means that someone believes an incident is severe enough to use this method of transport.......... the team is relying on them!!........it takes a strong and professional pilot to stay in bed.....!!!
SAR guys/gals are generally the same as EMS folk, but due to the low real work load, there can be a larger belief that ..."We are here to save you"....regardless if you really need saving....!!!
A helicopter can be prefectly suited for some rescue situations that clearly no other method is appropriate........however the helicopter winch, should be thought of as the last resort, rather than the first.
SARITIS.......is something that is real.
Therefore in general terms, one of the hardest and most challenging tasks of a "Highly" trained EMS or SAR crew, is when to say NO.
Generally EMS folk have pressures [real or implied] upon them, as they know that simply because they are called it means that someone believes an incident is severe enough to use this method of transport.......... the team is relying on them!!........it takes a strong and professional pilot to stay in bed.....!!!
SAR guys/gals are generally the same as EMS folk, but due to the low real work load, there can be a larger belief that ..."We are here to save you"....regardless if you really need saving....!!!
A helicopter can be prefectly suited for some rescue situations that clearly no other method is appropriate........however the helicopter winch, should be thought of as the last resort, rather than the first.
SARITIS.......is something that is real.
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Too true ....
Would seem on surface both cases presented were not planned
as they should have been.
SAR OPS have to take everything into account when positioning the aircraft for the rescue, doesn't look like good headwork was available for these.
Would seem on surface both cases presented were not planned
as they should have been.
SAR OPS have to take everything into account when positioning the aircraft for the rescue, doesn't look like good headwork was available for these.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I'm going to have to get on my horse(high) for this one:
As a SAR Operator I cannot comment fully on the above events as I did not witness them nor did I participate in either of them, however:
SAR Crews are only too aware of the effects of their downwash. The Pilots would have been getting a full picture of what was going on from the RearCrews but sometimes things can't be helped.
The people who were being treated may still have required an urgent evacuation to a medical facility. Being treated by a Medic/Paramedic at the scene does not compare to the definitive care provided at a Hospital(Gloden Hour and Scoop And Run and other great phrases). Also, did the SAR Crew know that the Cliff Rescue Team were 3 minutes away? How long would it take the Cliff Rescue Team to set up the rescue? A fall from 5m can kill someone, it doesn't have to be thousands of feet. SAR Crews have picked up a person who fell over 2000 feet and got away with it. She was then put into a hospital to a person who fell off a ladder and was now a quadraplegic.
Sometimes the public will just not get out of the way. I have personnally been involved in SAROps where no matter what we did the public would not move, then we had to balance the life of the casualty to the risk to the public. It is a difficult choice and you do the best you can.
Basically it boils down to the fact that you are not fully aware of the full situation and perhaps you should find out before slinging around accusations of unprofessionalism.
SAR/EMS crews have a very difficult job to do, which is generally done with little support from either the public or the Government. How about letting us get on with it.
Rant Over!
As a SAR Operator I cannot comment fully on the above events as I did not witness them nor did I participate in either of them, however:
SAR Crews are only too aware of the effects of their downwash. The Pilots would have been getting a full picture of what was going on from the RearCrews but sometimes things can't be helped.
The people who were being treated may still have required an urgent evacuation to a medical facility. Being treated by a Medic/Paramedic at the scene does not compare to the definitive care provided at a Hospital(Gloden Hour and Scoop And Run and other great phrases). Also, did the SAR Crew know that the Cliff Rescue Team were 3 minutes away? How long would it take the Cliff Rescue Team to set up the rescue? A fall from 5m can kill someone, it doesn't have to be thousands of feet. SAR Crews have picked up a person who fell over 2000 feet and got away with it. She was then put into a hospital to a person who fell off a ladder and was now a quadraplegic.
Sometimes the public will just not get out of the way. I have personnally been involved in SAROps where no matter what we did the public would not move, then we had to balance the life of the casualty to the risk to the public. It is a difficult choice and you do the best you can.
Basically it boils down to the fact that you are not fully aware of the full situation and perhaps you should find out before slinging around accusations of unprofessionalism.
SAR/EMS crews have a very difficult job to do, which is generally done with little support from either the public or the Government. How about letting us get on with it.
Rant Over!
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Deep C
My advice, although only being a private helo pilot, if you are seriously after the 'right' answer, would be to contact a SAR unit ( such as RAF Wattisham) and ask one of the crews.
It appears you're more likely on here to get mistakenly fragged for making accusations when you are in fact just asking a question.
I'm sure a decent search engine could give you a URL or two to try. You might try looking up RNAS Culdrose or RAF Wattisham as they are slightly better known.
My advice, although only being a private helo pilot, if you are seriously after the 'right' answer, would be to contact a SAR unit ( such as RAF Wattisham) and ask one of the crews.
It appears you're more likely on here to get mistakenly fragged for making accusations when you are in fact just asking a question.
I'm sure a decent search engine could give you a URL or two to try. You might try looking up RNAS Culdrose or RAF Wattisham as they are slightly better known.
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"It appears you're more likely on here to get mistakenly fragged for making accusations when you are in fact just asking a question."
DeepC asked a question and has been given balanced and informed replies. Oops 78 may have been slightly blunt in the way he put it, but surely it's a fair point that a casual observer looking on disapprovingly may not know all the facts of the situation? And Oops took the trouble to give a full and informed explanation.
I'm surprised you think DeepC should contact a SAR unit if he wants the 'right' answer rather than ask on Rotorheads. A total stranger telephoning or e-mailing any 'official' body is likely to get the formal 'official' answer, but he's much more likely to get the 'right' (= true) answer by asking here where off-duty professionals can respond informally and more freely because of the anonymous nature of the forum.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Heliport,
in defense of Handyandyuk, I think his comment "It appears you're more likely on here to get mistakenly fragged for making accusations when you are in fact just asking a question." although not perhaps worded as well as it could have been, fairly accurately describes OOPS 78's response to DeepC's posting. I don't consider OOPS 78's comment about "slinging around accusations of unprofessionalism." to be a fair or accurate response to DeepC's post where he made it quite clear the high esteem in which he holds SAR crews (and rightly so!). DeepC did afterall witness the two events and although not in posession of all the information, is perfectly entitled to attempt a reasoned evaluation of the situation. And he tried to further that evaluation by seeking feedback from the forum. Human beings rarely have the luxury of knowing all the facts but that doesn't stop us trying to evaluate situations, and if we didn't, well everyday living would soon grind to a halt. It is however up to each individual to be as responsible as possible in their evaluations.
Irlandés
OOPS 78, keep up the good work!!
On a lighter note, DeepC, you'll probably find that rotor downwash is never excessive, it just is. It's where you point it that matters!
in defense of Handyandyuk, I think his comment "It appears you're more likely on here to get mistakenly fragged for making accusations when you are in fact just asking a question." although not perhaps worded as well as it could have been, fairly accurately describes OOPS 78's response to DeepC's posting. I don't consider OOPS 78's comment about "slinging around accusations of unprofessionalism." to be a fair or accurate response to DeepC's post where he made it quite clear the high esteem in which he holds SAR crews (and rightly so!). DeepC did afterall witness the two events and although not in posession of all the information, is perfectly entitled to attempt a reasoned evaluation of the situation. And he tried to further that evaluation by seeking feedback from the forum. Human beings rarely have the luxury of knowing all the facts but that doesn't stop us trying to evaluate situations, and if we didn't, well everyday living would soon grind to a halt. It is however up to each individual to be as responsible as possible in their evaluations.
Irlandés
OOPS 78, keep up the good work!!
On a lighter note, DeepC, you'll probably find that rotor downwash is never excessive, it just is. It's where you point it that matters!
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Irlandes
If you become a professional pilot and get to fly SAR, EMS or Police in the UK, you'll find out why the guys get kinda sensitive on this subject. Or you could try reading Oops78 post again and think about it this time.
If you become a professional pilot and get to fly SAR, EMS or Police in the UK, you'll find out why the guys get kinda sensitive on this subject. Or you could try reading Oops78 post again and think about it this time.
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Thanks very much everybody for the replies.
Oops78: I tried very hard not to be too critical but presented the situations as I witnessed them first hand. Sorry if I hit a raw nerve because that was not intended. More a 'heads up' from someone on the ground who saw a situation develop that could have been avoided. My post did not 'sling around accusations of unproffesionalism'.
I think it could safely be assumed that there was a breakdown in communication on the days in question and a sledgehammer/nut situation developed. I would have thought that the crew could have held off at a suitable distance (higher or over the sea) until the situation panned out into something that required their services.
That said, it is amazing that in the part of the UK that this happened you can have a cliff rescue team and one or two helicopters on seen within 10 minutes. Truly outstanding service and as I said if the situation had panned out into a situation where the direct input of the Helicopter was needed then the damage and inconvenience would have very soon been forgotten.
Once again thanks for your input.
DeepC
Oops78: I tried very hard not to be too critical but presented the situations as I witnessed them first hand. Sorry if I hit a raw nerve because that was not intended. More a 'heads up' from someone on the ground who saw a situation develop that could have been avoided. My post did not 'sling around accusations of unproffesionalism'.
I think it could safely be assumed that there was a breakdown in communication on the days in question and a sledgehammer/nut situation developed. I would have thought that the crew could have held off at a suitable distance (higher or over the sea) until the situation panned out into something that required their services.
That said, it is amazing that in the part of the UK that this happened you can have a cliff rescue team and one or two helicopters on seen within 10 minutes. Truly outstanding service and as I said if the situation had panned out into a situation where the direct input of the Helicopter was needed then the damage and inconvenience would have very soon been forgotten.
Once again thanks for your input.
DeepC
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Bronx,
I do understand why they can be sensitive on the issue. It doesn't take much understanding. As for your second comment, if you want a reasoned reply (and it's possible that you don't), I'm afraid you'll have to expand a little bit.
Thanks,
Irlandés
I do understand why they can be sensitive on the issue. It doesn't take much understanding. As for your second comment, if you want a reasoned reply (and it's possible that you don't), I'm afraid you'll have to expand a little bit.
Thanks,
Irlandés
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Iralndes
I wasn't looking for a reasoned reply to anything, I was trying to help you understand somehting and suggested two ways that might help you. Sometimes it's difficult for recreational pilots to understand the problems professionals face. It's good you've thought more about it since your earlier post and worked things out for yourself.
Good luck with the training.
I wasn't looking for a reasoned reply to anything, I was trying to help you understand somehting and suggested two ways that might help you. Sometimes it's difficult for recreational pilots to understand the problems professionals face. It's good you've thought more about it since your earlier post and worked things out for yourself.
Good luck with the training.
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Oooops 78
All good points.........
Just updating your comment:
B]Being treated by a Medic/Paramedic at the scene does not compare to the definitive care provided at a Hospital(Gloden Hour and Scoop And Run and other great phrases).[/B]
Close. but not quite correct....the idea started years ago [1960's] in Ireland, then Australia and then followed by the US and very slowly by mainland UK..........of taking the commencement of "Definitive" medical care to the location rather than the patient to "Definitive" care........this care starts when our Doc/Paramedic starts work at the scene, and hopefully continues until they walk out of hospital.
Just updating your comment:
B]Being treated by a Medic/Paramedic at the scene does not compare to the definitive care provided at a Hospital(Gloden Hour and Scoop And Run and other great phrases).[/B]
Close. but not quite correct....the idea started years ago [1960's] in Ireland, then Australia and then followed by the US and very slowly by mainland UK..........of taking the commencement of "Definitive" medical care to the location rather than the patient to "Definitive" care........this care starts when our Doc/Paramedic starts work at the scene, and hopefully continues until they walk out of hospital.
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All
Some good points on a clearly emotive issue (questioning pilots airmanship is bound to be).
I think the EMS/SAR/Police do a very difficult and important job but there is bound to be good and bad airmanship displayed in all levels of license.
I don't think that the police or whatever pilots can be exempt from critiscism or questioning just because of their job.
I have seen a police pilot and crew land at an airfield (there was a heli school open day with several R22s doing trila lessons etc) and the interested public got to clamber all over the EC135. Top PR work for them and they were brilliant at chatting to everyone. When they lifted into a high hover and then slowly transitioned forward, the next door fixed wing flying schools plant pots and other decorative garden furniture was then sent flying over the car park and across the grass. This was met by the CFI of the school saying "F%^$*g helicopters.
A little thought of his downdraught would have stopped the animosity then projected at us "egg whisk" pilots that were left helping him to chase after his plant pots!!!
It was impressive performance though for a biased R22 heli pilot to watch
Some good points on a clearly emotive issue (questioning pilots airmanship is bound to be).
I think the EMS/SAR/Police do a very difficult and important job but there is bound to be good and bad airmanship displayed in all levels of license.
I don't think that the police or whatever pilots can be exempt from critiscism or questioning just because of their job.
I have seen a police pilot and crew land at an airfield (there was a heli school open day with several R22s doing trila lessons etc) and the interested public got to clamber all over the EC135. Top PR work for them and they were brilliant at chatting to everyone. When they lifted into a high hover and then slowly transitioned forward, the next door fixed wing flying schools plant pots and other decorative garden furniture was then sent flying over the car park and across the grass. This was met by the CFI of the school saying "F%^$*g helicopters.
A little thought of his downdraught would have stopped the animosity then projected at us "egg whisk" pilots that were left helping him to chase after his plant pots!!!
It was impressive performance though for a biased R22 heli pilot to watch
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That CFI was probably just jealous..
But giving downwash some thought is a good idea. But sometimes the public are plain stupid anyway, there's nothing we can do about that.
But giving downwash some thought is a good idea. But sometimes the public are plain stupid anyway, there's nothing we can do about that.