SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
Crab.
My ideal SAR machine would be the upgraded version of the S92.(Offered for the U.S. President I think.) For all bases!! As for the A139 being proven, well I think you should have a look at the other thread on this topic. But please don't turn that into another p-----g contest!
Do you only have one winch? Well, your Sea King is not as superior to the clapped out old Bristow sticky bun as you thought then! Dual hoist, similar capabilities for about seven or eight years now! I thought the Norwegian Sea Kings had been fitted with a dual hoist several years ago as well. Again, not a dig. Different priorities, different routes.
My ideal SAR machine would be the upgraded version of the S92.(Offered for the U.S. President I think.) For all bases!! As for the A139 being proven, well I think you should have a look at the other thread on this topic. But please don't turn that into another p-----g contest!
Do you only have one winch? Well, your Sea King is not as superior to the clapped out old Bristow sticky bun as you thought then! Dual hoist, similar capabilities for about seven or eight years now! I thought the Norwegian Sea Kings had been fitted with a dual hoist several years ago as well. Again, not a dig. Different priorities, different routes.
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Crab and Crashondeck.
Please stop the bitching, girls. As of Friday evening, we are back to using the winch as normal.
Just a bad batch and all suspect ones have been recalled.
Crash, I think that the SARF took exactly the right action and as a result the sit has been resolved with no further incidences.
Please stop the bitching, girls. As of Friday evening, we are back to using the winch as normal.
Just a bad batch and all suspect ones have been recalled.Crash, I think that the SARF took exactly the right action and as a result the sit has been resolved with no further incidences.
Tanewha - thanks for the update.
Crash - are you saying that if the CG had such a problem they would hush it up? As Tanewha said it was a technical problem that was encountered unexpectedly and dealt with correctly. We do carry a second winch, it is electrically operated and rather slow and has never actually been required on a SAROP. We would love to have twin hoists but as others are so fond of telling me, it all comes down to money and a need to justify the expense.
Decks - you have rather underlined my point - if you are the person sitting on a mountain with a broken leg, you probably won't die if you have to wait until morning or have to be carried off the hill by MRT. But if it was you and there was a helicopter available you would most likely want to be rescued pdq. There are countless numbers of people who have been rescued from the mountains in UK who would not have survived if they had not been rescued by SAR helicopters - that's why we do it.
There seems to be a subtle agreement that the military SAR does provide a greater capability because of equipment and training levels - but at a perceived cost since no-one can accurately compare the cost of civvy and military SAR. To make that comparison meaningful you would have to either reduce our training and manning levels to that of the MCA (and accept a reduction in capability) or increase the MCA up to the military levels. Then and only then can you get an accurate comparison, anything else is wishful thinking and missing the old 'bang for your buck' or capability for cost element.
Ask all those who do get rescued what colour the helicopter is and they won't care, just as long as someone comes to get them and doesn't say 'sorry but our employer doesn't pay enough for us to do that job, ring again in the morning.'
3Dcam - I have looked at the 139 threads and there isn't much hard info there - I assume it will be used for short range single or double lift jobs that are bread an butter for S coast flights during the summer months so payload won't be an issue, good single engine performance will be a godsend.
Arctic Warrior - there you go again with your incisive debating skills
Crash - are you saying that if the CG had such a problem they would hush it up? As Tanewha said it was a technical problem that was encountered unexpectedly and dealt with correctly. We do carry a second winch, it is electrically operated and rather slow and has never actually been required on a SAROP. We would love to have twin hoists but as others are so fond of telling me, it all comes down to money and a need to justify the expense.
Decks - you have rather underlined my point - if you are the person sitting on a mountain with a broken leg, you probably won't die if you have to wait until morning or have to be carried off the hill by MRT. But if it was you and there was a helicopter available you would most likely want to be rescued pdq. There are countless numbers of people who have been rescued from the mountains in UK who would not have survived if they had not been rescued by SAR helicopters - that's why we do it.
There seems to be a subtle agreement that the military SAR does provide a greater capability because of equipment and training levels - but at a perceived cost since no-one can accurately compare the cost of civvy and military SAR. To make that comparison meaningful you would have to either reduce our training and manning levels to that of the MCA (and accept a reduction in capability) or increase the MCA up to the military levels. Then and only then can you get an accurate comparison, anything else is wishful thinking and missing the old 'bang for your buck' or capability for cost element.
Ask all those who do get rescued what colour the helicopter is and they won't care, just as long as someone comes to get them and doesn't say 'sorry but our employer doesn't pay enough for us to do that job, ring again in the morning.'
3Dcam - I have looked at the 139 threads and there isn't much hard info there - I assume it will be used for short range single or double lift jobs that are bread an butter for S coast flights during the summer months so payload won't be an issue, good single engine performance will be a godsend.
Arctic Warrior - there you go again with your incisive debating skills
Crab.
With ref. to your comment on the 139. That is exactly my point. No hard info! If it is doing so well in service, then how come no one who is strapping it to their backsides has anything to say about it, good or bad? CHC have just put it into CAT service in Holland and even they are being a bit quiet about it. Yes, I am cynical but more than willing to accept hard facts and information if it is to the benefit of all!
Early on with this debate there were pages of stuff about the S92, some useful, some otherwise but at least there was something!
With ref. to your comment on the 139. That is exactly my point. No hard info! If it is doing so well in service, then how come no one who is strapping it to their backsides has anything to say about it, good or bad? CHC have just put it into CAT service in Holland and even they are being a bit quiet about it. Yes, I am cynical but more than willing to accept hard facts and information if it is to the benefit of all!
Early on with this debate there were pages of stuff about the S92, some useful, some otherwise but at least there was something!
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Tanewha, I wasn't bitching, merely highlighting that such a thing might cause bad press.
Crab,
I am absolutely not suggesting that the MCA would hush such a thing up.
Crab,
I am absolutely not suggesting that the MCA would hush such a thing up.
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Crab,
I am surprised you still defend the MOD's involvement in this process, you should be deeply afraid! After all it was the same organisation that wasted millions (enough to fund this contract several times over) on the Chinook Mk3, it is the same organisation that is responsible for Nimrod, Apache, Eurofighter, Merlin and all those other well run and value for money projects - NOT.
As you say there is not much information on the A139 - so which "experts" in the MOD assessed it and found it suitable for SAR? The rumours beginning to circulate point to the A139 being worse than the glossy sales brochures and even if it met that performance it would still struggle to do what the S61 does now. If improved capability was the driving force behind this contract change then why didn't the MOD wants S92's on the S Coast?
Finally, I am sorry if I assigned the wrong initials to Crabette. But where is Crabette with her inside knowledge, she has gone very quiet leaving only you to defend the indefensible!
DtD
I am surprised you still defend the MOD's involvement in this process, you should be deeply afraid! After all it was the same organisation that wasted millions (enough to fund this contract several times over) on the Chinook Mk3, it is the same organisation that is responsible for Nimrod, Apache, Eurofighter, Merlin and all those other well run and value for money projects - NOT.
As you say there is not much information on the A139 - so which "experts" in the MOD assessed it and found it suitable for SAR? The rumours beginning to circulate point to the A139 being worse than the glossy sales brochures and even if it met that performance it would still struggle to do what the S61 does now. If improved capability was the driving force behind this contract change then why didn't the MOD wants S92's on the S Coast?
Finally, I am sorry if I assigned the wrong initials to Crabette. But where is Crabette with her inside knowledge, she has gone very quiet leaving only you to defend the indefensible!
DtD
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BBC NEWS item about Emergency Helis..?
Hi All
Did anyone in the UK catch the BBC1 6 o'clock news? I only saw a glimpse of the last bit, which mentioned something about 15 new emergency helicopters or something. Is this more on privatising SAR? Can anyone clarify?
Ta
Did anyone in the UK catch the BBC1 6 o'clock news? I only saw a glimpse of the last bit, which mentioned something about 15 new emergency helicopters or something. Is this more on privatising SAR? Can anyone clarify?
Ta
I guess they will have to create fairly large trained teams in order to be able to get a handful together when an emergency at sea develops. Small specialised teams are great for the first six months after launch then holiday season starts, another goes off to watch a baby being born, another breaks a leg...
Great PR stuff from a Government thats great on PR but will not stump up the money for even one dedicated Fire Brigade helicopter to develop the concept.
Strangely nothing was heard before the launch - the storyline must have been restricted to the TV crews.
Great PR stuff from a Government thats great on PR but will not stump up the money for even one dedicated Fire Brigade helicopter to develop the concept.
Strangely nothing was heard before the launch - the storyline must have been restricted to the TV crews.
Teams of six firefighters plus equipment in one lift. Augmented by other teams as and when required.
Use Coastguard S61's or Military Sea Kings dependant on whereabouts of incident. HOWEVER, big debate at the moment on whether the new type earmarked for the two South Coast Coastguard units, the AW139 will have the space in the cabin to carry the team and equipment in one lift.
Use Coastguard S61's or Military Sea Kings dependant on whereabouts of incident. HOWEVER, big debate at the moment on whether the new type earmarked for the two South Coast Coastguard units, the AW139 will have the space in the cabin to carry the team and equipment in one lift.
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This all happened 8 years ago in Essex. The county Fire service trained 50 of us to conduct off-shore ship fire-fighting in and around the Essex North kent Coast. We were trained in embarking and dis-embarking, Winch delivery and extraction, Crash and underwater escape proceedures. All very exciting and worthwhile. When it came to figuring out who would pay for the helicopters after the event (Ie after a real incident) it all went Tits up! Government said that it would be down to County, County said it would be insurance then it came down to insurance companies being overseas etc and round and round it went. We thought that salvage rights would be applicable also and we had our eyes on a lovely cruise ship that went up and down the Thames weekly from Tilbury! lol
Funny actually because only last week we threw away the helmets and imersion suits because they had degraded so much in storage they were useless. Another big "Flagship" rolled out by Government at the time that soon died a death when there was no more publicity to be had.
Same thing is now happening with USAR Urban search and rescue. Millions of pounds of equipment and training for "Terrorist" incident solution. Just lots and lots of Bigwigs getting their pictures taken next to shiny new lorries.
Another thing as well that comes to mind....We get a Death payment of 5 times Salary to Our Families should we die on Duty but if it is "Terrorist" linked the Old Insurance clause of "War, Riots, Strikes Civil commotion Nuclear incident and Terrorism" Clause comes into effect. In other words we get F
K all!
Be interesting to see if the Privatised SAR boys will be interested in working alongside the Fire brigades in the future!
Funny actually because only last week we threw away the helmets and imersion suits because they had degraded so much in storage they were useless. Another big "Flagship" rolled out by Government at the time that soon died a death when there was no more publicity to be had.
Same thing is now happening with USAR Urban search and rescue. Millions of pounds of equipment and training for "Terrorist" incident solution. Just lots and lots of Bigwigs getting their pictures taken next to shiny new lorries.
Another thing as well that comes to mind....We get a Death payment of 5 times Salary to Our Families should we die on Duty but if it is "Terrorist" linked the Old Insurance clause of "War, Riots, Strikes Civil commotion Nuclear incident and Terrorism" Clause comes into effect. In other words we get F
K all!Be interesting to see if the Privatised SAR boys will be interested in working alongside the Fire brigades in the future!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/4957076.stm
Presumabley no problem for a huminbird 139 full of firemen then?
Presumabley no problem for a huminbird 139 full of firemen then?
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I don't think there will be any problem with the "privatised SAR boys" wanting to work with you. Coastguard aircraft have been "privatised" to use your words for decades very successfuly. It's up to HMCG to ensure that they have the right kit to do the job.
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Prescience...
From the BBC news website
Cruise ship fire in Channel out
A fire on a cruise ship in the English Channel with more than 700 people on board has been put out.
The Calypso vessel got into difficulties about 15 miles off Beachy Head on Saturday morning, coastguard officers confirmed.
The fire in the port engine and engine room was initially tackled by the crew until firefighters arrived at the scene by helicopter and lifeboats.
There were no casualties and it was not necessary to evacuate the ship.
A coastguard spokeswoman confirmed four lifeboats and a rescue helicopter had been sent to the scene.
She said the May Day call had been made at about 0400 BST from the ship, which is sailing from Tilbury, Essex, to St Peter Port in Guernsey.
Of the 708 people on board, 462 are passengers and 246 crew.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4979538.stm
From the BBC news website
Cruise ship fire in Channel out
A fire on a cruise ship in the English Channel with more than 700 people on board has been put out.
The Calypso vessel got into difficulties about 15 miles off Beachy Head on Saturday morning, coastguard officers confirmed.
The fire in the port engine and engine room was initially tackled by the crew until firefighters arrived at the scene by helicopter and lifeboats.
There were no casualties and it was not necessary to evacuate the ship.
A coastguard spokeswoman confirmed four lifeboats and a rescue helicopter had been sent to the scene.
She said the May Day call had been made at about 0400 BST from the ship, which is sailing from Tilbury, Essex, to St Peter Port in Guernsey.
Of the 708 people on board, 462 are passengers and 246 crew.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4979538.stm
Now work out how many helicopters it would take to evacuate that ship if the fire hadn't gone out and then consider the new super-liners that could have over 3000 pax.
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3DCAM
Do you have the internal dimensions of the 139?
Six firemen all their kit and 2 crewmen with their kit seems a bit of a squeeze in the back of the AB139.
The other threads on the 139 seem to have gone quiet, any info out there on how it is doing?
RI
Do you have the internal dimensions of the 139?
Six firemen all their kit and 2 crewmen with their kit seems a bit of a squeeze in the back of the AB139.
The other threads on the 139 seem to have gone quiet, any info out there on how it is doing?
RI