SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
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"rules can be broken to save human life"
I've seen similiar statements in many orders. Unfortunately, in some cases, lives wouldn't have been lost if the rules weren't broken...someone else would have done the mission. That wasn't the case in this mission, see the thread in the military forum.
I have no intent to condemn the crew for their actions, in fact the contrary. Well done. However, I hope that in the future we all learn from this and remember to consider other means rather than pushing your machine and/or risking your crew when it may not be necessary.
Matthew. (a SAR guy)
I've seen similiar statements in many orders. Unfortunately, in some cases, lives wouldn't have been lost if the rules weren't broken...someone else would have done the mission. That wasn't the case in this mission, see the thread in the military forum.
I have no intent to condemn the crew for their actions, in fact the contrary. Well done. However, I hope that in the future we all learn from this and remember to consider other means rather than pushing your machine and/or risking your crew when it may not be necessary.
Matthew. (a SAR guy)
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Triple Matched TQ:
Thanks for the facts. It seems to me that you did the right thing. Very unfortunate that anyone mentioned a court martial, good that it wasn't pursued.
Well done on the mission! Please pass this to the crew.
Matthew.
Thanks for the facts. It seems to me that you did the right thing. Very unfortunate that anyone mentioned a court martial, good that it wasn't pursued.
Well done on the mission! Please pass this to the crew.
Matthew.
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Triple Matched TQ
Utter respect to you (and thats from an ex crab!)
I'de have no hesitation in flying with you, anytime, anywhere.
I take my hat off to you and salute you Sir.
Outstanding work
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a large bottle of Grouse for TM TQ'
Utter respect to you (and thats from an ex crab!)
I'de have no hesitation in flying with you, anytime, anywhere.
I take my hat off to you and salute you Sir.
Outstanding work
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a large bottle of Grouse for TM TQ'
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TM Tq
Lets just hope all those armchair pilots, who obviouly knew all the facts, and all your aircrafts limits inside out, and have obviously spent many years in the role of Search and Rescue, have learnt something.
Bravo indeed
!!!!!
Bravo indeed
!!!!!
Matthew - in this case there most certainly was someone else who could do the job - a helicopter at another base not that far away with better range due to a different fuel tank layout.
An injured crewman on a fishing boat 200 plus miles from land isn't going to get medical attention within the 'golden hour' so if it takes an extra 30 mins to get him off the boat he is still looking at 5 hours or so from the time of take-off - what is the point of trashing the aircraft just to save 20 or 30 mins?
An injured crewman on a fishing boat 200 plus miles from land isn't going to get medical attention within the 'golden hour' so if it takes an extra 30 mins to get him off the boat he is still looking at 5 hours or so from the time of take-off - what is the point of trashing the aircraft just to save 20 or 30 mins?
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Please see the attached response from my friend that was posted in the original topic on the military forum - he is the pilot who was actually involved. I think it answers the questions of some and corrects the ridiculous assertions of others!
Thanks very much for encouraging your friend to post on this topic.
I've copied his post from the Mil Forum and it now appears above - highlighted so people don't miss it. It certainly helps to put the record straight!
Heliport
Thanks very much for encouraging your friend to post on this topic.
I've copied his post from the Mil Forum and it now appears above - highlighted so people don't miss it. It certainly helps to put the record straight!
Heliport
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[email protected]
Have I missed something? As I understand it the RN SeaKing was 50-55 mins into the mission by the time the revised position came in. You seem to suggest the RAF Seaking could then have been scrambled from Chivenor, flown the extra 85nms odd from Chivenor and still arrived only 20-30 mins after the RN aircraft?
Had the updated position been known from outset perhaps the RCC would have tasked Chivenor to start with but it wasn't and sounds like the RN crew made sound reasoned decision.
The guy is alive and the "trashed" aircraft flying again. Job done.
Have I missed something? As I understand it the RN SeaKing was 50-55 mins into the mission by the time the revised position came in. You seem to suggest the RAF Seaking could then have been scrambled from Chivenor, flown the extra 85nms odd from Chivenor and still arrived only 20-30 mins after the RN aircraft?
Had the updated position been known from outset perhaps the RCC would have tasked Chivenor to start with but it wasn't and sounds like the RN crew made sound reasoned decision.
The guy is alive and the "trashed" aircraft flying again. Job done.
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Nice to see the record set straight.
The cruise guide indicator is an excellent backup for this sort of thing.
I assume that if you had been at Vmax and the Cruise Guide indicator in the high green you wouldn't have pressed, but then again, wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
This unfortunately is the sort of thing that technically incompetent senior officers can make a really bad case about.
Well done.
The cruise guide indicator is an excellent backup for this sort of thing.
I assume that if you had been at Vmax and the Cruise Guide indicator in the high green you wouldn't have pressed, but then again, wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
This unfortunately is the sort of thing that technically incompetent senior officers can make a really bad case about.
Well done.
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Someone had to mention "Non-critical" patient
Firstly, well done for coming on board and letting everyone know the FACTS.
Secondly, the opening post had to include something about the "non-critical" patient - what a load of crap!
When SAR aircraft are tasked, the decision is NOT based on the patient condition - you are simply asked to see if you can do the job or not - end of story. What happens during the flight is totally up to the aircraft commander. If they decide to bust a limit, they have to live with the consequences. Its got nothing to do with experience.
Good on you for not keeping it quiet. Sounds like a tough job.
"The only time you've got too much fuel is when you are on fire!"
Secondly, the opening post had to include something about the "non-critical" patient - what a load of crap!
When SAR aircraft are tasked, the decision is NOT based on the patient condition - you are simply asked to see if you can do the job or not - end of story. What happens during the flight is totally up to the aircraft commander. If they decide to bust a limit, they have to live with the consequences. Its got nothing to do with experience.
Good on you for not keeping it quiet. Sounds like a tough job.
"The only time you've got too much fuel is when you are on fire!"
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I can't think of a helicopter that I have flown where you could exceed Vne in the cruise without pulling higher than max continuous power.
Gomer Pylot - Thanks for the info, I stand corrected. Never having played with any real 'racing snakes' I can only offer ignorance as a defence.
Triple Matched TQ - Excellent post for an excellent job done.
TeeS
Triple Matched TQ - Excellent post for an excellent job done.
TeeS
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Some people will disagree with what that crew did, and some wont. But as you can see, the crew didnt just "rush" into it. With planning and taking into all considerations, they decided that by pushing that little bit harder, they could acheive their goals, and that goal was to save a human's life. And they acheived it, with the patient making a full recovery.
WELL DONE to all involved!!! I take my hat off.
Hughesy
WELL DONE to all involved!!! I take my hat off.
Hughesy
Triple Matched Tq - If you had included more of this information in the incident report you would have prevented much of the reaction in the Sea King world. Presumably the Navy Standards and your bosses took it seriously or there would not have been the threat of court martial (an over the top reaction IMO).
I don't have an 'inter-service rivalry' problem but I think that you should have informed ARCC of your limits so a chase aircraft could have been launched.
You would have looked very stupid if your fuel burn had been worse than planned or the transfer had taken longer and you hadn't been able to do the job after all that effort - then another cab would still have to have been launched with a much bigger delay for the casualty.
In this situation it all worked out OK and you successfully got him back to hospital - good effort.
As a QHI would you condone one of your Sqn pilots doing the same thing or would you have given him a rodding out and expected him to be forever contrite.
I would still like to know where the 10% 'limit' that you exceeded is laid down - if it is just hearsay then I suggest it is stated as such before all the Sea King pilots are flashing around above Vmax and the fleet gets even more trashed than it already is.
Maybe next time just put on the incident report that Vmax was exceeded and leave out the deliberate part.
I'll go back to my armchair now!!
I don't have an 'inter-service rivalry' problem but I think that you should have informed ARCC of your limits so a chase aircraft could have been launched.
You would have looked very stupid if your fuel burn had been worse than planned or the transfer had taken longer and you hadn't been able to do the job after all that effort - then another cab would still have to have been launched with a much bigger delay for the casualty.
In this situation it all worked out OK and you successfully got him back to hospital - good effort.
As a QHI would you condone one of your Sqn pilots doing the same thing or would you have given him a rodding out and expected him to be forever contrite.
I would still like to know where the 10% 'limit' that you exceeded is laid down - if it is just hearsay then I suggest it is stated as such before all the Sea King pilots are flashing around above Vmax and the fleet gets even more trashed than it already is.
Maybe next time just put on the incident report that Vmax was exceeded and leave out the deliberate part.
I'll go back to my armchair now!!
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Here's one for Abiw
First Gulf war, 3 hercs at 30 minute spacing heading for ex-lightning hi- altitude Saudi base. I was number two. We all had problems getting airborne and making altitude. We worked some figures back thro ODm and came out with ridiculous weight. Advised other a/c on radio of conclusions. No 1, ignored them, according to crew, hit ground with hell of a thump and crack somewhere up in centre fuselage. I landed using shed loads of power and most of 12000ft runway (yes, speed way above limiting so I held the nose off.. ) and taxied and blocked him in so we could weigh the freight as it came off.....surprise surpise, load was marked in kilos instead of pounds as movers had said.. Point is, had manufacturers limitations been set in concrete I think we would have all had broken main spars instead of the one who ignored best advice.
The broken one was recovered to big "A" without incident, however the subsequent t/o caused fun and frolics as the hot air ducting was also cracked and burnt thro the wiring to the no's 1 & 2 engines or was it 3&4. It was patched up and flown back to UK un pressurised, day light only, within sight of land!!
The broken one was recovered to big "A" without incident, however the subsequent t/o caused fun and frolics as the hot air ducting was also cracked and burnt thro the wiring to the no's 1 & 2 engines or was it 3&4. It was patched up and flown back to UK un pressurised, day light only, within sight of land!!
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Triple
Sounds like a job well done, also from an ex-crab!
Still a bit confused by heedm's posts, but his latest would seem to agree with the general attitude that there is some flex, in some rules, as long as you apply sufficient thought and care.
I'm sure a lot of survivors are just that because of our SAR force's flexibility and professionalism.
Sounds like a job well done, also from an ex-crab!
Still a bit confused by heedm's posts, but his latest would seem to agree with the general attitude that there is some flex, in some rules, as long as you apply sufficient thought and care.
I'm sure a lot of survivors are just that because of our SAR force's flexibility and professionalism.
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Exceeding the Limits!
Obviously a job well done and properly thought through. I cannot even start to imagine why the powers that be thought that taking Courts Martial proceedings against you would solve the problem. If that is their attitude then nobody will ever own up to exceeding limitations (whether by accident or deliberately in the course of duty) and we will all end up flying unserviceable aircraft!
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TMT
A copy book rescue by my reckoning. I'm just astounded that you were threatened with a Courts Martial!
I have some 10 years of experience doing SAR around the SW and 14 on the 'King'. I think it would be fair to say that on every SAR mission I flew on, where time was of the essence, we exceeded the calculated VMAX for the day. Big deal. You could push the 'King' all you wanted, but she soon told you 'don't go there'. The torque/ptit/vibration et al, soon tempered your enthusiasm for the task in hand.
The calculations that are done for ROA, PNR, CP, 5%, fuel burn, SSE, etc, etc, at the start of a watch are bog standard, and do not account for the actual 'being there'.
We were there to do a job. A job for which we had been trained. We were fully aware of the implications of breaking an aircraft and so did not stitch an oppo.
Spanish Waltzer: You don't live at the 200 mile limit, do you? the 3/3A fuel is about 30 minutes more than the 5.
I think I've lost the thread of what I was trying to say, 'cos it's late, but rotary limits do have some flex; just ask an Op Telic Puma operator
TMT, to sum up, I think you can ignore most of this thread and continue to do what you do best. Fly professionally.
BZ
PS. Still throwing dice for the tea?
A copy book rescue by my reckoning. I'm just astounded that you were threatened with a Courts Martial!
I have some 10 years of experience doing SAR around the SW and 14 on the 'King'. I think it would be fair to say that on every SAR mission I flew on, where time was of the essence, we exceeded the calculated VMAX for the day. Big deal. You could push the 'King' all you wanted, but she soon told you 'don't go there'. The torque/ptit/vibration et al, soon tempered your enthusiasm for the task in hand.
The calculations that are done for ROA, PNR, CP, 5%, fuel burn, SSE, etc, etc, at the start of a watch are bog standard, and do not account for the actual 'being there'.
We were there to do a job. A job for which we had been trained. We were fully aware of the implications of breaking an aircraft and so did not stitch an oppo.
Spanish Waltzer: You don't live at the 200 mile limit, do you?
the 3/3A fuel is about 30 minutes more than the 5.I think I've lost the thread of what I was trying to say, 'cos it's late, but rotary limits do have some flex; just ask an Op Telic Puma operator
TMT, to sum up, I think you can ignore most of this thread and continue to do what you do best. Fly professionally.
BZ
PS. Still throwing dice for the tea?
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Pub User, the reason I say that you can't break rules and then condone instances where you can is to avoid having crews with the attitude that there are no rules when on a SAR mission. It happens. See Spur Lash's post.
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If you stay within the "Rules" (SOP, FOB, Flight Manual etc) you are legally covered by the organisation you work for; they remain vicariously liable for your actions. If you step outside these Rules you are on your own in a litigious sense.
I have broken the rules and cut a hole in a tree canopy with a rotor disk to rescue a man, it worked so I got a badge to wear. If it hadn't a crew of four could have died and I could have been negligently liable and possibly criminally responsible.
This is often the reason that aircraft captains who make that step beyond organisational responsibility are often threatened or even taken to courts martial.
Great thread
I have broken the rules and cut a hole in a tree canopy with a rotor disk to rescue a man, it worked so I got a badge to wear. If it hadn't a crew of four could have died and I could have been negligently liable and possibly criminally responsible.
This is often the reason that aircraft captains who make that step beyond organisational responsibility are often threatened or even taken to courts martial.
Great thread