Sikorsky S-76 [Archive Copy]
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No such thing as an experienced Chinese 76C+(OR ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT) in the part of China that you are flying in.
As straitman implies, not sure where you are going with this!!!
"Professional pilots" flying at night don't often have the luxury of flying 300 feet & above. If you have two "professional pilot" on board who understand CRM, than this is a none issue.
Maybe you have too much time on your hands & it's time to return to the real world of flying!!!
As straitman implies, not sure where you are going with this!!!
"Professional pilots" flying at night don't often have the luxury of flying 300 feet & above. If you have two "professional pilot" on board who understand CRM, than this is a none issue.
Maybe you have too much time on your hands & it's time to return to the real world of flying!!!
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
straightman, only problem with setting 100' on rad alt is that it clashes with the 100' call on the ADELT and the system logic means it won't go off. Agree 50' too low though but the current rad alt/ADELT were designed with landing and inadvertent fly in as the main consideration as far as i can recollect from when they came in back in the mid to late 80's
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lost in thought
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
S-76d?
What's a rumor network without a good rumor..... I heard tell today that Sikorsky has been quietly working on an S-76D. After the A, B, C, and C+, I guess J.P. had to make his mark somehow after leaving Bell.
C'mon Nick... Spill
C'mon Nick... Spill
RayBan….wow , you sure got a bee up your b__. Right about one thing though. I do have a lot of time on my hands. Rig is just 55nm out and I average two trips a week. Lucky me.
As for returning “to the real world of flying”…(.provocactive statement perhaps ?)…I have flown in the real world and I can say now that the North Sea is a doddle compared to the Bohai Sea (China)…and for a number of different reasons which I won’t go into here. Another thread perhaps ? IFR offshore helicopter operations were invented by the Canadians , passed to the Brits in the North Sea and so on. (There , that’s my bit of provocation !)
Let me explain “ luxury of 300 feet”. That is a C.A.A.C requirement for night , which drops to 200 by day. I too have flown to 150 and a half and apart from the extra pukkar factor of having the ocean a bit closer , you still have to fly the machine to the required limits.
The idea of this thread was to exchange information in a constructive manner ..on a subject that is , in my experience , critical. Night Rig operations.
As for for our Chinese compatriots. We are here to pass on our knowledge and experience. You would have to be a pratt , not to realize that they too have learnt a few things along the way….to ignore that , is folly.
I agree about the CRM but in the context of my recent experience I am in the left seat as a training pilot with a copilot (under training) with less than 500 hours experience. I might add that these particular copilots are the best I have ever flown with and this opinion is shared by other multi national high time training pilots. Want me to name names ?
As for the Take off Radalt setting. The 50 foot is just a (nominal) marker. Doesn’t mean we have to fly down to it on one engine. (I don’t have an AVAD apart from the one sitting next to me) so whether you set 50 , 70 or 100 feet….it is meant as a warning that it is time to raise the nose before that big splash.
Come on , RayBan. Take those god awful shades off and look at the situation with a bit more of a positive attitude. We are here to learn , not throw stones.
As for returning “to the real world of flying”…(.provocactive statement perhaps ?)…I have flown in the real world and I can say now that the North Sea is a doddle compared to the Bohai Sea (China)…and for a number of different reasons which I won’t go into here. Another thread perhaps ? IFR offshore helicopter operations were invented by the Canadians , passed to the Brits in the North Sea and so on. (There , that’s my bit of provocation !)
Let me explain “ luxury of 300 feet”. That is a C.A.A.C requirement for night , which drops to 200 by day. I too have flown to 150 and a half and apart from the extra pukkar factor of having the ocean a bit closer , you still have to fly the machine to the required limits.
The idea of this thread was to exchange information in a constructive manner ..on a subject that is , in my experience , critical. Night Rig operations.
As for for our Chinese compatriots. We are here to pass on our knowledge and experience. You would have to be a pratt , not to realize that they too have learnt a few things along the way….to ignore that , is folly.
I agree about the CRM but in the context of my recent experience I am in the left seat as a training pilot with a copilot (under training) with less than 500 hours experience. I might add that these particular copilots are the best I have ever flown with and this opinion is shared by other multi national high time training pilots. Want me to name names ?
As for the Take off Radalt setting. The 50 foot is just a (nominal) marker. Doesn’t mean we have to fly down to it on one engine. (I don’t have an AVAD apart from the one sitting next to me) so whether you set 50 , 70 or 100 feet….it is meant as a warning that it is time to raise the nose before that big splash.
Come on , RayBan. Take those god awful shades off and look at the situation with a bit more of a positive attitude. We are here to learn , not throw stones.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn’t say that I have a bee up my b…., but I certainly don’t have much time for people like you who prefer to pontificate than pass along any useful knowledge.
You state that your rig in the Bohai Sea is 55nm away and that you only fly twice a week, yet claim that the North Sea is a doddle. Have you flown the North Sea? I would wager that you haven’t, otherwise you wouldn’t have made that kind of statement. You make reference to sharing another thread, perhaps this is just a yarn now.
With regard to the experienced Chinese C+ crews … are you telling us that the crews who only have 500 hours, of which all is spent in the right seat … are the best you’ve ever flown with. Would you rate them as good drivers too? Your statement doesn’t say much for the ones you trained in another life, and they were of your elk. You asked if I wanted you to name names of those who agree with you, then yes, please do.
I’m glad you admit that you have too much time on your hands … but remember, idleness is the devil’s workshop. In closing, I do agree with you that we are all here to learn and not throw stones, perhaps you can stick to the facts and save the fiction for another forum.
You state that your rig in the Bohai Sea is 55nm away and that you only fly twice a week, yet claim that the North Sea is a doddle. Have you flown the North Sea? I would wager that you haven’t, otherwise you wouldn’t have made that kind of statement. You make reference to sharing another thread, perhaps this is just a yarn now.
With regard to the experienced Chinese C+ crews … are you telling us that the crews who only have 500 hours, of which all is spent in the right seat … are the best you’ve ever flown with. Would you rate them as good drivers too? Your statement doesn’t say much for the ones you trained in another life, and they were of your elk. You asked if I wanted you to name names of those who agree with you, then yes, please do.
I’m glad you admit that you have too much time on your hands … but remember, idleness is the devil’s workshop. In closing, I do agree with you that we are all here to learn and not throw stones, perhaps you can stick to the facts and save the fiction for another forum.
Nr Fairy...I got to the AAIB website but it did not take me to the accident/incident you refer to. Could you please advise the exact incident and or address. Wud like to read it.
thanks...............peter
thanks...............peter
Nr Fairy......finally got thru to the AAIB bulletin. Very interesting. Thanks
RayBan.....I will respond later with an olive branch but have to go now and commit aviation so will get back to you later.
Everyone. (including RayBan) Thanks for your comments on this thread. If I am guilty of pontification...soreeeeeeee....in a nutshell...how do you guys fly an S76 at night onto a single light source offshore rig.
THAT IS THE INFO I AM TRYING TO GET.
The take off , obviously , is also of interest.
RayBan.....I will respond later with an olive branch but have to go now and commit aviation so will get back to you later.
Everyone. (including RayBan) Thanks for your comments on this thread. If I am guilty of pontification...soreeeeeeee....in a nutshell...how do you guys fly an S76 at night onto a single light source offshore rig.
THAT IS THE INFO I AM TRYING TO GET.
The take off , obviously , is also of interest.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I am guilty of pontification...soreeeeeeee....in a nutshell...how do you guys fly an S76 at night onto a single light source offshore rig.
Aren't they normally/always lit up like christmas trees?
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SE ASIA
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RayBan - you obviously have lost the way somewhere. This forum is here for "Professional Pilots" to have educated discussion and a little fun, it is not really a place for arrogant know all's to vent their frustrations!
Peter did not say he was in the Bohai Sea at the moment ( He is working the South China Sea at present ). As one of Peter's colleagues presently working the Bohai I agree with his comments that it would rival working the North Sea and YES Peter has worked the North Sea and just about every other Sea for that matter!
I would suggest that its not a bee up you b__ rather your head so pull it out have and have a good look at yourself.
To Peter and All the Other Contributors in this discussion keep up the good work in the true spirit of this forum.
Peter did not say he was in the Bohai Sea at the moment ( He is working the South China Sea at present ). As one of Peter's colleagues presently working the Bohai I agree with his comments that it would rival working the North Sea and YES Peter has worked the North Sea and just about every other Sea for that matter!
I would suggest that its not a bee up you b__ rather your head so pull it out have and have a good look at yourself.
To Peter and All the Other Contributors in this discussion keep up the good work in the true spirit of this forum.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: No Fixed Address
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey RayBan,
You sure do have an attitude, especially for someone with only 2 posts to their name (what number name is this then?). Perhaps a bit of counselling would help with your problems. Or why not share with us your vast experiences on the subject. Spent a bit of time in China have you?
There are some of us that are interested in the thread Peter has started so why don't you find the 'woe is me' thread and go and play there.
You sure do have an attitude, especially for someone with only 2 posts to their name (what number name is this then?). Perhaps a bit of counselling would help with your problems. Or why not share with us your vast experiences on the subject. Spent a bit of time in China have you?
There are some of us that are interested in the thread Peter has started so why don't you find the 'woe is me' thread and go and play there.
Night Rig Ops
Daz...thanks for moral support . strange.
Straitman.... You are right. They are lit up like Xmas trees. This is a bit difficult to put diplomatically...but are you an offshore ifr pilot ? Can I try and explain it this way. Night Rig approaches , particularly in the S76 are , or can be VERY uncomfortable. If you go thru the various agencies you will find quite a number of CFIT(H) accident reports and in our world , most of them involve controlled flight into the water or rig obstructions.The airlines are right into CFIT training and I think we need to crank out our own version ie CFIT(H) Controlled Helicopter Flight into the water and offshore obstructions.
Anyhow , there are a number of peculiar difficulties with night rig approaches especially where there is no moonlight and no other light sources such as other platforms , rigs or ships....this is what I mean by a single light source. Your "xmas tree" at more than 2 miles is just a single blob of light in a very black void.
Straitman.... You are right. They are lit up like Xmas trees. This is a bit difficult to put diplomatically...but are you an offshore ifr pilot ? Can I try and explain it this way. Night Rig approaches , particularly in the S76 are , or can be VERY uncomfortable. If you go thru the various agencies you will find quite a number of CFIT(H) accident reports and in our world , most of them involve controlled flight into the water or rig obstructions.The airlines are right into CFIT training and I think we need to crank out our own version ie CFIT(H) Controlled Helicopter Flight into the water and offshore obstructions.
Anyhow , there are a number of peculiar difficulties with night rig approaches especially where there is no moonlight and no other light sources such as other platforms , rigs or ships....this is what I mean by a single light source. Your "xmas tree" at more than 2 miles is just a single blob of light in a very black void.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Peter
Regards your single light query, can I suggest very carefully!
In our auto hover 76s, it was easy. Fly over the top and push a button and it all happened for you. But as someone said it must be very rare to find a rig or ship with only one effective light. In this case you need to have a plan with a fixed set of figures based on ground speed, height, rate of decent and distance to target based on either GPS, DME or more usually radar. If you get current at this, it is quite easy but do it once in a while and it gets a bit frightening.
Glad I don't have to do it anymore! The Chinese think I am too old!
Regards your single light query, can I suggest very carefully!
In our auto hover 76s, it was easy. Fly over the top and push a button and it all happened for you. But as someone said it must be very rare to find a rig or ship with only one effective light. In this case you need to have a plan with a fixed set of figures based on ground speed, height, rate of decent and distance to target based on either GPS, DME or more usually radar. If you get current at this, it is quite easy but do it once in a while and it gets a bit frightening.
Glad I don't have to do it anymore! The Chinese think I am too old!
G'day Nigel....nice to hear your voice.
You have hit on one key point..."if you are doing it all the time".
Invariably we dont and when we do , it is a dark and stormy night on medivac. What I am trying to do up here is focus the training more and more on , night offshore rather than buzzing around a 10,000 foot well lit runway.
Guess age catches up with us all and soon it will be my turn as well , to hang up the headset....in China anyhow.
You would enjoy it up here.
The following may be of interest.....
Just a few CFIT(H) accidents.
I know of many other “close calls” and incidents. The ones below resulted in an aircraft in the water where it don’t belong !
S76A – GoM – 1996
S76B – North Sea – 1997
S76A – South China Sea – 199?
S76 – Africa - ?
Recent S76 in South America
These are just a few I have dug up. Don’t get me wrong. I am not slamming the S76. Other types may or may not feature prominently. It is just that I am flying the S76 at this time and am interested in that and no other type. If I go back to flying the “steam chicken” (B212) or 61 then I am sure I can drag up similar reports ???
You have hit on one key point..."if you are doing it all the time".
Invariably we dont and when we do , it is a dark and stormy night on medivac. What I am trying to do up here is focus the training more and more on , night offshore rather than buzzing around a 10,000 foot well lit runway.
Guess age catches up with us all and soon it will be my turn as well , to hang up the headset....in China anyhow.
You would enjoy it up here.
The following may be of interest.....
Just a few CFIT(H) accidents.
I know of many other “close calls” and incidents. The ones below resulted in an aircraft in the water where it don’t belong !
S76A – GoM – 1996
S76B – North Sea – 1997
S76A – South China Sea – 199?
S76 – Africa - ?
Recent S76 in South America
These are just a few I have dug up. Don’t get me wrong. I am not slamming the S76. Other types may or may not feature prominently. It is just that I am flying the S76 at this time and am interested in that and no other type. If I go back to flying the “steam chicken” (B212) or 61 then I am sure I can drag up similar reports ???
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter, the way I approach these approaches is to have the PF on the instruments until short final. It's OK to take some peeks to see where the rig is, and how far, but primarily it's on instruments until fairly short final. If a circle is required to make sure it's the right rig & where the heliport is (it's not that uncommon to have several rigs in the same block over here) then the circle is on instruments. The PF checks the rig as he flies over it, then goes back on instruments for the circle. It's ok to look out to see where the rig is, but the circle has to be on instruments primarily. I've had copilots try to fly me into the water by trying to fly visually when there is nothing to see, & it only takes a couple of seconds to get into the water from <500'. The PNF has to keep sight of the rig & also monitor the PF. Trying to do this single-pilot would terrify me, and it's done over here, sometimes with fatal results. This requires a crew with really good coordination and mutual respect. I agree that from a few miles out, the rig appears as one light. And on a really dark night, with smoke in the air, it can be impossible to see any light reflections on the water, & there are no cues as to rate of closure or height, & the rig lights can start to move around. That makes the approach very difficult.
The takeoff is also on instruments, from the initial pitch pull from a hover, with the PNF monitoring the PF full time. IMO, the takeoff needs to be positive and forward, getting to Vmin as soon as possible. Trying to hover OGE and then transition to forward flight is begging for trouble. Airspeed is life. I just pull power and put 2-3 degrees nose down pretty much simultaneously, & try to get Vmin as soon as I can; you're certainly IMC as soon as you get off the deck, & you'd better fly that way. You're totally blind when you go from the bright lights out into the dark, no night vision at all.
Like you, I don't do this as often as I'd like - mostly it's broken rigs or broken roughnecks, but 50 miles is a very short trip for me. A couple of nights ago I went 275NM one way, then back in, & it's seldom less than 100, so we both get a chance to drive.
The takeoff is also on instruments, from the initial pitch pull from a hover, with the PNF monitoring the PF full time. IMO, the takeoff needs to be positive and forward, getting to Vmin as soon as possible. Trying to hover OGE and then transition to forward flight is begging for trouble. Airspeed is life. I just pull power and put 2-3 degrees nose down pretty much simultaneously, & try to get Vmin as soon as I can; you're certainly IMC as soon as you get off the deck, & you'd better fly that way. You're totally blind when you go from the bright lights out into the dark, no night vision at all.
Like you, I don't do this as often as I'd like - mostly it's broken rigs or broken roughnecks, but 50 miles is a very short trip for me. A couple of nights ago I went 275NM one way, then back in, & it's seldom less than 100, so we both get a chance to drive.
RayBan,
As previously stated, take the dark glasses off and take a look at yourself! Peter has enough runs on the board to speak well and authoratively on this and many other subjects; your snide put downs show a lack of knowledge on your part, both professionally and morally.
I/we don't know you from a bar of soap, but any credibility you may (well) have has just committed CFIT, all on its own
Peter, long time no see. Do you pass through ML on the way to Tassie?
As previously stated, take the dark glasses off and take a look at yourself! Peter has enough runs on the board to speak well and authoratively on this and many other subjects; your snide put downs show a lack of knowledge on your part, both professionally and morally.
I/we don't know you from a bar of soap, but any credibility you may (well) have has just committed CFIT, all on its own
Peter, long time no see. Do you pass through ML on the way to Tassie?
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Philippines
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAYBAN,
I feel it neccessary to speak up for Peter. I first met Peter in Songkhla around 1994, back when a 40 deck production run was not uncommon. Peter may be sitting in a slow job right now but he has been there and done that.
I believe the original thread was for thoughts and comments on Night Approaches in the S-76. I can attest to the fact that a night approach in the 76 is unlike any other A/C, the approach path may be similar, but what you have for vis out of the cockpit is quite different.
Peter:
Great topic, hows China? Is Brods still there? I'm just plugging away here in Brunei, Yeeha!
Cheers
OffshoreIgor
I feel it neccessary to speak up for Peter. I first met Peter in Songkhla around 1994, back when a 40 deck production run was not uncommon. Peter may be sitting in a slow job right now but he has been there and done that.
I believe the original thread was for thoughts and comments on Night Approaches in the S-76. I can attest to the fact that a night approach in the 76 is unlike any other A/C, the approach path may be similar, but what you have for vis out of the cockpit is quite different.
Peter:
Great topic, hows China? Is Brods still there? I'm just plugging away here in Brunei, Yeeha!
Cheers
OffshoreIgor
.....well I guess I am going to have to thank RayBan for "stirring" things up with the end result that I am hearing from people who I had lost contact with.
John. I am now based in China. The family is still Launceston based. Sheryl has just arrived up here for a "1 month tour" !!! I will head back end Oct for some leave.
offshoreigor....now I am really wracking my brain to id you....who was in SKL in 1994 ???? Yes , Brods is up north in the Bohai. I am down here in Sanya. Brunei , eh. I have fond memories so understand your "yeaha"
OK. This is getting off the thread , so.... I am in the process of setting to print what I am going to call the "Captain Wu (modified)" S76 night rig approach. It is a refined version of the opening thread. I am scheduled for two night training trips this week....both to the rig...and we will be specifically using this procedure. Previous training trips (night) have certainly been a lot more comfortable using this method.
Thanks to all for input so far. All great stuff and useful.
Nice to see we are all basically on the same track...ie we are all trying to "STAY OUT OF THE WATER"
Peter
John. I am now based in China. The family is still Launceston based. Sheryl has just arrived up here for a "1 month tour" !!! I will head back end Oct for some leave.
offshoreigor....now I am really wracking my brain to id you....who was in SKL in 1994 ???? Yes , Brods is up north in the Bohai. I am down here in Sanya. Brunei , eh. I have fond memories so understand your "yeaha"
OK. This is getting off the thread , so.... I am in the process of setting to print what I am going to call the "Captain Wu (modified)" S76 night rig approach. It is a refined version of the opening thread. I am scheduled for two night training trips this week....both to the rig...and we will be specifically using this procedure. Previous training trips (night) have certainly been a lot more comfortable using this method.
Thanks to all for input so far. All great stuff and useful.
Nice to see we are all basically on the same track...ie we are all trying to "STAY OUT OF THE WATER"
Peter