Do you turn your phone off???!!!
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There's a big notice on our wall about a Super Puma that lost its EFIS for a second or two on the North Sea when a passenger used a mobile phone.
Tune to an AM station, as used by ADF, on a cheap radio and switch on an even cheaper calculator nearby - you will find the radio is blanked out by white noise. In fact, the radiations from TVs and radios come within the VOR and ILS regions as well. Although cell phones are cleared for use near heart monitors (in hospitals), they do so at low power when inside the range of a cell. Once in an aircraft, and a long way away from a transmitter, they put the power up and then become dangerous - a couple of hundred phones searching for their cells can therefore create havoc.
Gameboys, video cameras and laptops are not immune either.
As for locking on to several cells at once - b*llocks. What happens when when you stand on a hill? The real problem here is the question of tracking, and is probably more to do with the FBI rather than the FCC, since the phone companies must keep the records for at least 6 months.
Modern phones transmit even when they are "switched off", particularly those multi PDAs - the only safe way is to remove the battery.
Phil
Tune to an AM station, as used by ADF, on a cheap radio and switch on an even cheaper calculator nearby - you will find the radio is blanked out by white noise. In fact, the radiations from TVs and radios come within the VOR and ILS regions as well. Although cell phones are cleared for use near heart monitors (in hospitals), they do so at low power when inside the range of a cell. Once in an aircraft, and a long way away from a transmitter, they put the power up and then become dangerous - a couple of hundred phones searching for their cells can therefore create havoc.
Gameboys, video cameras and laptops are not immune either.
As for locking on to several cells at once - b*llocks. What happens when when you stand on a hill? The real problem here is the question of tracking, and is probably more to do with the FBI rather than the FCC, since the phone companies must keep the records for at least 6 months.
Modern phones transmit even when they are "switched off", particularly those multi PDAs - the only safe way is to remove the battery.
Phil
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Ha tracking.... they got that wired. Last winter we flew these guys to mtn sites while they built the system for a major western US mtn market. We were also involved in the testing/proving/trouble shooting for the sites. It is mandated that the phone companys install this by 2010 or something. It is already up and running in NYC, LA, Most large eastern seaboard cities, interstate highway corridors and a few markets in the west.
Basically they can pinpoint anyone with a turned on cell phone to less than 10m. It was designed for 911 applications. If some one calls 911, all the other cell sites go into some kinda of dme mode and send signals back and forth, pinpointing the cell phone. They claim 100 meters but during the tests the guy was a few meters off with gps cords!
Just think of the big brother applications of this thing. the sick thing is the story I heard was it was someones grad project and it had to do with a dating service!
check it out
www.trueposition.com
rb
Basically they can pinpoint anyone with a turned on cell phone to less than 10m. It was designed for 911 applications. If some one calls 911, all the other cell sites go into some kinda of dme mode and send signals back and forth, pinpointing the cell phone. They claim 100 meters but during the tests the guy was a few meters off with gps cords!
Just think of the big brother applications of this thing. the sick thing is the story I heard was it was someones grad project and it had to do with a dating service!
check it out
www.trueposition.com
rb
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I've flown a helicopter with a sat phone, digital mobile and a couple of CDMA mobiles all switched on recieving and making calls and not had any problems. The helicopter has FADEC as well. My opinion is that the only way they can interfere with an aircrafts navigation aids is if some one used a phone to club the pilot unconscious. Other than that, I'm happy to have the punter on the phone anytime.
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They can pinpoint anyone with a turned off one, too, if it's modern - just visit your local PI convention and be prepared to sh*t yourself with the amount of ways you can be spied upon.
There are around 150 computers in the average airliner, all networked together, and it will probably be proportionately so in helicopters as they progress - did someone mention that the new B3's throttles are now completely electronic? Some helicopters do everything electronically.
Any PC network technician (like wot I am) can tell you how sensitive the signals in a network are. Luckily, the 407's FADEC transmits signals to the engine with RS232, which is out of the ark. Sure, in a 206 or something, especially a VFR machine, there shouldn't be a problem, but, as I mentioned before, the Super Puma may suffer. And if the wiring loom in the Gazelle is anything to go by, others, too.
Phil
There are around 150 computers in the average airliner, all networked together, and it will probably be proportionately so in helicopters as they progress - did someone mention that the new B3's throttles are now completely electronic? Some helicopters do everything electronically.
Any PC network technician (like wot I am) can tell you how sensitive the signals in a network are. Luckily, the 407's FADEC transmits signals to the engine with RS232, which is out of the ark. Sure, in a 206 or something, especially a VFR machine, there shouldn't be a problem, but, as I mentioned before, the Super Puma may suffer. And if the wiring loom in the Gazelle is anything to go by, others, too.
Phil
You'd think all this electronic stuff would be screened against static, EMF etc.
Why single out phones as the culprits? I think it's just mass hysteria. .
Use your phone when you're filling the car and see what happens. . !
Has anyone EVER seen a spark while they've been on the mobile, ever?
Get a nice pair of synthetic trousers or nylon shirt and some cheap car seats and watch the sparks fly. . but they're not outlawed (unfortunately).
http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/gasphones.html
Why single out phones as the culprits? I think it's just mass hysteria. .
Use your phone when you're filling the car and see what happens. . !
Has anyone EVER seen a spark while they've been on the mobile, ever?
Get a nice pair of synthetic trousers or nylon shirt and some cheap car seats and watch the sparks fly. . but they're not outlawed (unfortunately).
http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/gasphones.html
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Originally Posted by paco
They can pinpoint anyone with a turned off one, too, if it's modern - just visit your local PI convention and be prepared to sh*t yourself with the amount of ways you can be spied upon.
I saw on a well know Tv series (sky one - sundays) the girl says "we cant track him - his sim card must be out of the phone!"
Does anyone know? Can you be "triangulated" (great word) on the ground even if your phone is turned off?
MADY
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Does anybody suffer from interference with the RT when a phone is on ?
If you have a phone near a speaker of any sort and it receives a call then there is a lot of intereference.
I was on a commercial flight once when the captain complained that his communication with ATC was disturbed by a phone signal.
If you have a phone near a speaker of any sort and it receives a call then there is a lot of intereference.
I was on a commercial flight once when the captain complained that his communication with ATC was disturbed by a phone signal.
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Of course, the SIM card must be in, but the latest from leading electronic surveillance experts is that they can be tracked when turned off. By which they mean that the On/Off switch merely puts it in standby, which is indeed what happens with my KJam (smartphone/PDA thingy). Some PIs in the States now routinely take their batteries out and only put them in when they are paged.
Phil
Phil
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We got handsfree cellphone sets wired through the intercom, with an outside antenna, in all our helicopters (300's, EC120's,AS350's). This is all legal and approved by the authorities and all the operators got it in this part of the country(north and remote..). And its a hell of a lot better than using the earplug under the headset..
Fly Safe !
Fly Safe !
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Do I turn off my mobile when flying?
No. And never had any problems.
No. And never had any problems.
What an extraordinary thread! Professional pilots (I presume) discussing the merits of breaking safety regulations because they "know better". I'm amazed.
Petrol station "myth". If you've done a CPL you know that all electromagnetic transmissions can, and will, induce current in nearby metallic objects. Whether or not this creates a spark is immaterial, it's clearly negligent to do anything that adds to the risk.
We don't know how signals affect our aircraft, so why risk it.
I thought there was a fairly extensive body of evidence that mobiles do indeed affect airliner systems, and probably caused a crash in the Far East a few years ago. Read it here on PPRuNe a few days ago but can't find it right now. Edit - try this for size! http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases06/060228_cellphone.html
It is illegal to use any transmitting device above a certain level (30'?)above ground in the UK (tall buildings count as ground) unless licenced. This is an old Post Office regulation and carries stiff penalties. I had a pax threatened with a visit to court for using his phone in the air - he was got by exactly the method someone rubbished above - blocking out a number of ground relay stations and making the computer cough. So it does happen.
And as for turning antennae to point downwards...perhaps he was joking. If not better read up on electromagnetic propagation & polarization and see where you went wrong.
What's wrong with doing it like we should, Professionally, and leaving the damn things off in flight?
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 12th Apr 2006 at 11:13.
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I gather, due to the structure of the S76 Baggage Warning System being a Photocell, then any false warning due to a errant cell/mobile phone is due to some type of "Electrical" induction phenomena, rather than the activation of the Smoke Sensor itself.
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Originally Posted by Agaricus bisporus
It is illegal to use any transmitting device above a certain level (30'?)above ground in the UK (tall buildings count as ground) unless licenced. This is an old Post Office regulation and carries stiff penalties.
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Leemind, you may be right, but I doubt it. Ask a radio ham about the rules for height of antennae. It may or may not be in the Act you quote, but it's there somewhere.
Ps Didn't you know that there are RF transmitters you do not need a licence for. Low power walkie-talkies for instance...Bet that's not in your 1949 Act...
Ps Didn't you know that there are RF transmitters you do not need a licence for. Low power walkie-talkies for instance...Bet that's not in your 1949 Act...
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 12th Apr 2006 at 11:12.
Avoid imitations
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One of the S-76 aircraft I fly IS definitely affected by "live" phones in the aft baggage bay. The smoke detector goes off as the aircraft progresses across the sky and the phone changes to the next "cell", or if a call is received and the phone rings. Because there is no fire extinguisher in the baggage bay, it is a potentially serious issue, especially if IFR (land asap). We always explain this to to passengers in the safety brief and tell them to make sure they don't leave a live phone in a coat or bag.
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I don't leave the ground without mine. It is velcroed to the panel just in front of me and is wired into my helmet. I use it more than our Motorola radios because I can have semi private conversation without all my people listening in. The only problem I have is occasionally when I pull up into a turn it wants to change towers and will either drop the call or loose ability to talk until I dive back into the field. 
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Not quite without incident:
Unless you know better of course - after all you are professional pilots.
Date: 29 April 2004, aircraft type: Super Puma AS 332 L2, during the landing phase at airport. During the final approach of the helicopter to the airport (returning from offshore), one unidentified passenger used his mobile phone in flight about one minute before landing, which caused the loss of all the flight and navigation parameters of the four IFDS screens (Integrated Flight Display System).
The four screens became black during this critical flight phase for one second, and then returned to normal. In addition, there was illumination of the HUMS caution light, due to the loss of all the flight data of the HUMS (Health and Usage Monitoring System).
This incident is not an isolated occurrence: another incident has been reported on a Sikorsky S 76: a mobile phone - in the cargo bay, but not switched off - caused a false engine fire alarm during the flight. Mobile phone calls made by passengers on aircraft can seriously affect the aircraft's onboard equipment.
The UK Civil Aviation Authority carried out tests on two parked aircraft to find out the potential dangers of mobile phone use. It found evidence that calls produced interference levels which could disrupt aircraft systems. Faults that could be attributed to mobile phones use include false cockpit warnings, the malfunctioning of aircraft systems, interference in pilots' headsets and the distraction of cabin crews from their normal duties.
The CAA bans the use of mobile phones from its flights once engines start running.
In June 2003, a man was sentenced to 12 months in prison after being found guilty of "recklessly and negligently" endangering a British Airways flight. The Court jury heard that the man, an oil worker, had repeatedly refused to switch off his phone after being spotted with it on a Boeing 737.
The four screens became black during this critical flight phase for one second, and then returned to normal. In addition, there was illumination of the HUMS caution light, due to the loss of all the flight data of the HUMS (Health and Usage Monitoring System).
This incident is not an isolated occurrence: another incident has been reported on a Sikorsky S 76: a mobile phone - in the cargo bay, but not switched off - caused a false engine fire alarm during the flight. Mobile phone calls made by passengers on aircraft can seriously affect the aircraft's onboard equipment.
The UK Civil Aviation Authority carried out tests on two parked aircraft to find out the potential dangers of mobile phone use. It found evidence that calls produced interference levels which could disrupt aircraft systems. Faults that could be attributed to mobile phones use include false cockpit warnings, the malfunctioning of aircraft systems, interference in pilots' headsets and the distraction of cabin crews from their normal duties.
The CAA bans the use of mobile phones from its flights once engines start running.
In June 2003, a man was sentenced to 12 months in prison after being found guilty of "recklessly and negligently" endangering a British Airways flight. The Court jury heard that the man, an oil worker, had repeatedly refused to switch off his phone after being spotted with it on a Boeing 737.
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About 10 years ago I was flying a Twin Squirrel on a Public Transport flight with a prominent MP on board. We were over his home turf and he asked me if he could use his mobile to speak to his wife. Always keen to keep my pax happy I said, "Strictly speaking you shouldn't but if I'm looking the other way I won't see you will I!"
Watching out of the corner of my eye he dialled the number and pressed send, at which point 3 warning lights illuminated on the CWP
. I forget which 3 they were but I remember they were unrelated to each other, to the extent that even the cruelest of TRE's wouldn't have dreamt of combining them as a scenario on an OPC.
Nowadays I work for a Police ASU with a digital communications system which to date does not appeared to have interfered with the aircraft systems. What it's doing to my systems and those of the observers on board is another matter however!!
Watching out of the corner of my eye he dialled the number and pressed send, at which point 3 warning lights illuminated on the CWP
. I forget which 3 they were but I remember they were unrelated to each other, to the extent that even the cruelest of TRE's wouldn't have dreamt of combining them as a scenario on an OPC.Nowadays I work for a Police ASU with a digital communications system which to date does not appeared to have interfered with the aircraft systems. What it's doing to my systems and those of the observers on board is another matter however!!