The end of military SAR?
Well well, crab giving half truths again!
M.C.A. second standby aircraft.
Each 24hr unit, Sumburgh, Stornoway and Lee do have a dedicated second standby aircraft.( Do you want callsigns? But if you are as much in the loop as you make out, then you should already know them!) Portland being a 12hr. unit shares the standby machine from Lee. This after Portlands' standby machine was destroyed after suffering an in flight catastrophic engine fire while on a job! All public knowledge btw. There is now no spare machine at Portland purely because the M.C.A. did not see it as required/would not spend the money!! Them nasty chaps at Bristow did offer a replacement, but the M.C.A. would not accept that a spare machine is required for an S.A.R. base. FACT. This is even carried over to the new contract so successfully worked out by your compatriots and C.H.C. (Now who is the money grabbing contractor??)
There is no second standby crew purely because the M.C.A. will not pay for one. And with the limited training hours just what would they do?? Sit around playing uckers?
It is all down to what the client will or will not pay for. We do not operate in an ideal world i'm afraid.
Yes DtD, good question! Where is crabette?? I hear that schoolkids are getting the benefit of her wisdom. I hope they can work out how an AW139 has more ground clearance than an S61, Beats me!!
M.C.A. second standby aircraft.
Each 24hr unit, Sumburgh, Stornoway and Lee do have a dedicated second standby aircraft.( Do you want callsigns? But if you are as much in the loop as you make out, then you should already know them!) Portland being a 12hr. unit shares the standby machine from Lee. This after Portlands' standby machine was destroyed after suffering an in flight catastrophic engine fire while on a job! All public knowledge btw. There is now no spare machine at Portland purely because the M.C.A. did not see it as required/would not spend the money!! Them nasty chaps at Bristow did offer a replacement, but the M.C.A. would not accept that a spare machine is required for an S.A.R. base. FACT. This is even carried over to the new contract so successfully worked out by your compatriots and C.H.C. (Now who is the money grabbing contractor??)
There is no second standby crew purely because the M.C.A. will not pay for one. And with the limited training hours just what would they do?? Sit around playing uckers?
It is all down to what the client will or will not pay for. We do not operate in an ideal world i'm afraid.
Yes DtD, good question! Where is crabette?? I hear that schoolkids are getting the benefit of her wisdom. I hope they can work out how an AW139 has more ground clearance than an S61, Beats me!!
HF.
Standby machines are on site at each of those bases. They are not, however, fully fitted a/c. ie. No auto hover & single hoist but are fitted for FLIR. This is just swapped from a/c to a/c and takes the engineers less time than it does for the crews to swap their equipment.
Again, it comes down to what the client is willing to pay for.
Allegedly the new a/c, S92 and AW139 will all be the same. That is, fully coupled, dual hoist etc.etc. We shall see.
Standby machines are on site at each of those bases. They are not, however, fully fitted a/c. ie. No auto hover & single hoist but are fitted for FLIR. This is just swapped from a/c to a/c and takes the engineers less time than it does for the crews to swap their equipment.
Again, it comes down to what the client is willing to pay for.
Allegedly the new a/c, S92 and AW139 will all be the same. That is, fully coupled, dual hoist etc.etc. We shall see.
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Crab,
A wider range of disciplines for you to practice on:
http://www.unoriginal.co.uk/global-rescue.html
DtD
A wider range of disciplines for you to practice on:
http://www.unoriginal.co.uk/global-rescue.html
DtD
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Flippin heck!
Ye Gods gents this thread has got down and dirty very rapidly!
Now I have posted a few times pointing out the virtues of both mil and civ SAR pilots. It would appear that no one is listening! Chaps, and ladies, I'll say it again, we are all good at what we do with the tools we are given. Change is comming though. That will be change for both mil and civ operators. Lets cover the civ chaps first, you all state about you get the kit the customer will pay for. Well in 2012 one of the partners that will be your customer is the military. So some accommodation of what they will require will be needed - they are currently working out what it is they exactly want and this is not the forum to go speculating about it - someone has already mentioned commercial in confidence information. But you will need to meet in the middle me thinks.
Military chaps. You too will have to change. SAR will inevitably not be an 'entire career posting anymore'. You will have to move to the SH force at some point to use the skills from SAR in the battlefield - SH chaps dont start about what skills - time and a place and this aint it.
You will almosty certainly get new equipment to a specificiation laid down in a contract. If it doesn't work or new kit is required, you adjust the contract and the ac or service is modified at someones expense. Sometimes yours sometimes theirs. It is relatively simple and you reap the benefits of change quickly. The trick is getting the contract right in the first place. Now this is where your efforts should lie from now until contract award.
Crab. I am sorry but I have to agree with some of the posters above and say you might well be doing more harm than good to mil SAR. I think some of your comments might be a little outdated and suffer from crew-room wispers [a bit like chinese wispers but more dangerous!]. Please don't have a go back because I am not attacking you just pointing out that you might like to think on a little more before you type out a response.
RTS, 3D cam, DtD, Crab is not a bad chap he is just defending his corner from a perceived threat. You are doing exactly the same. However, this ping pong my dads bigger than your dad stuff is not doing the SAR community any good whatsoever. Can we all please look to the future and get the BEST from it for all concerned. This thread is not a good advert for people who spend their lives dedicated to saving others.
Waits for incomming. Oh, by the way crabette is not who you think either!
Now I have posted a few times pointing out the virtues of both mil and civ SAR pilots. It would appear that no one is listening! Chaps, and ladies, I'll say it again, we are all good at what we do with the tools we are given. Change is comming though. That will be change for both mil and civ operators. Lets cover the civ chaps first, you all state about you get the kit the customer will pay for. Well in 2012 one of the partners that will be your customer is the military. So some accommodation of what they will require will be needed - they are currently working out what it is they exactly want and this is not the forum to go speculating about it - someone has already mentioned commercial in confidence information. But you will need to meet in the middle me thinks.
Military chaps. You too will have to change. SAR will inevitably not be an 'entire career posting anymore'. You will have to move to the SH force at some point to use the skills from SAR in the battlefield - SH chaps dont start about what skills - time and a place and this aint it.
You will almosty certainly get new equipment to a specificiation laid down in a contract. If it doesn't work or new kit is required, you adjust the contract and the ac or service is modified at someones expense. Sometimes yours sometimes theirs. It is relatively simple and you reap the benefits of change quickly. The trick is getting the contract right in the first place. Now this is where your efforts should lie from now until contract award.
Crab. I am sorry but I have to agree with some of the posters above and say you might well be doing more harm than good to mil SAR. I think some of your comments might be a little outdated and suffer from crew-room wispers [a bit like chinese wispers but more dangerous!]. Please don't have a go back because I am not attacking you just pointing out that you might like to think on a little more before you type out a response.
RTS, 3D cam, DtD, Crab is not a bad chap he is just defending his corner from a perceived threat. You are doing exactly the same. However, this ping pong my dads bigger than your dad stuff is not doing the SAR community any good whatsoever. Can we all please look to the future and get the BEST from it for all concerned. This thread is not a good advert for people who spend their lives dedicated to saving others.
Waits for incomming. Oh, by the way crabette is not who you think either!
So which ever way you cut it - there is no declared second standby aircraft and no second standby crew at MCA flights. I stated it as a fact and after lots of gnashing and wailing it has been agreed that it is in fact the case. It wasn't meant to bash the MCA crews - I know the customer won't pay for the fully fitted second aircraft and another crew. The second standby aircraft is povided by us (when serviceability permits) and the crews are always available (except in extremis). Add that capability to the pot and you find another reason why trying to compare costs of SAR operations is futile.
DtD why don't you include the whole govt in your ridiculous reasoning for military expense.
As an aside - read back through this thread and see who first starts quoting and criticising, thus changing the flavour of the thread completely with 'outraged responses'.
As SARREMF rightly spots, I am defending something of which I am proud to be a part of, in the face of an overwhelming momentum towards contractorisation fuelled by speculation and supposition that it will be cheaper and therefore better. I disagree and I am just trying to give a different perspective on what most seem to feel is a fait accomplis. If this means highlighting areas of different capability then that is what I will do, if it puts the odd nose out of joint - I don't care, if it is 'damaging military SAR' and I frankly can't see how, then so be it - many posters here should be rejoicing if that is the case since they are so anti-mil SAR.
Try and come up with some reasoned arguments rather than sniping or just pm me with your vitriol rather than wasting server space by quoting paragrapghs of my posts and then bitching at me.
Love and kisses to all
DtD why don't you include the whole govt in your ridiculous reasoning for military expense.
As an aside - read back through this thread and see who first starts quoting and criticising, thus changing the flavour of the thread completely with 'outraged responses'.
As SARREMF rightly spots, I am defending something of which I am proud to be a part of, in the face of an overwhelming momentum towards contractorisation fuelled by speculation and supposition that it will be cheaper and therefore better. I disagree and I am just trying to give a different perspective on what most seem to feel is a fait accomplis. If this means highlighting areas of different capability then that is what I will do, if it puts the odd nose out of joint - I don't care, if it is 'damaging military SAR' and I frankly can't see how, then so be it - many posters here should be rejoicing if that is the case since they are so anti-mil SAR.
Try and come up with some reasoned arguments rather than sniping or just pm me with your vitriol rather than wasting server space by quoting paragrapghs of my posts and then bitching at me.
Love and kisses to all
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Its starting to appear on this thread that SAR is a bit like the church.... After a while it has little to do with God.
Maybe we shouldnt forget who the real customer is in all this... (a) the person in need of the helo. and (b) the person paying for it. The tax paying public and the Goverment needs to be able to stand over how it spends those funds.
It is quite amazing that the UK Air ambulances have to go around begging with buckets while the SAR bases have TWO aircraft AND in some cases full back up crew. Worse still in Ireland we dont have any Air Ambulances at all. Our role is important but lets not lose sight of the big picture just so we can stick our chest out.
Maybe we shouldnt forget who the real customer is in all this... (a) the person in need of the helo. and (b) the person paying for it. The tax paying public and the Goverment needs to be able to stand over how it spends those funds.
It is quite amazing that the UK Air ambulances have to go around begging with buckets while the SAR bases have TWO aircraft AND in some cases full back up crew. Worse still in Ireland we dont have any Air Ambulances at all. Our role is important but lets not lose sight of the big picture just so we can stick our chest out.
Last edited by Decks; 24th Apr 2006 at 07:22.
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SARREMF I agree totally with your posting.
Unfortunately as a civil SAR pilot I can't help be feel agrieved by the negative postings by crab towards civil SAR. It seems he wants to knock us at every opportunity and has no respect for the job that we do or the training that we do. It's interesting to note that every time this argument turns into a pissing contest its always crab who's in the middle of it. But then I think its pprune and a lot of 'venting' goes on here!!
I have flown with an RAF SAR crew on a training exercise and was thoroughly impressed with the attitude and professionalism of the crew so I know that crabs postings are not representative of the majority of RAF SAR crew.
To the other posters - is it possible that crab is just trying to wind you up and doesn't actually believe a lot of what he is posting. He does seem to have a very mischievous streak!
Unfortunately as a civil SAR pilot I can't help be feel agrieved by the negative postings by crab towards civil SAR. It seems he wants to knock us at every opportunity and has no respect for the job that we do or the training that we do. It's interesting to note that every time this argument turns into a pissing contest its always crab who's in the middle of it. But then I think its pprune and a lot of 'venting' goes on here!!
I have flown with an RAF SAR crew on a training exercise and was thoroughly impressed with the attitude and professionalism of the crew so I know that crabs postings are not representative of the majority of RAF SAR crew.
To the other posters - is it possible that crab is just trying to wind you up and doesn't actually believe a lot of what he is posting. He does seem to have a very mischievous streak!
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Been there, done them both - Military and Civilian SAR.
I was once asked at RAF Fairford when I was doing the commentating for a Civilian SAR demo "If I was in the water and I saw a rescue helicopter coming for me. Which would I prefer? Military or Civilian SAR" to which I replied "Does it matter?"
As long as the equipment is good and the guys are well trained and experienced, does it matter?
I hear the AB139 has a few problems SAR wise? Don't know if this is true though
I was once asked at RAF Fairford when I was doing the commentating for a Civilian SAR demo "If I was in the water and I saw a rescue helicopter coming for me. Which would I prefer? Military or Civilian SAR" to which I replied "Does it matter?"
As long as the equipment is good and the guys are well trained and experienced, does it matter?
I hear the AB139 has a few problems SAR wise? Don't know if this is true though
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Quote: Mallardpi (me)
"It seems that the arguement of who should do SAR and who can do SAR in the UK is about to raise it's head again and no doubt however hard anybody tries on this thread to stop silly bickering, mindless chat will be posted. However, in a effort to make my opinion known whilst risking the senseless moaning and ill-informed 'chat' from both sides of the fence, I will put my tu'pence worth in now before it all goes mad."
Reply: Thomas Coupling:
"You don't need to come that high all mighty here mallardpi...you're just another pilot saying his bit...ok?
Silly bickering...mindless chat......"
See I told you so, it did go mad.........enough said.
"It seems that the arguement of who should do SAR and who can do SAR in the UK is about to raise it's head again and no doubt however hard anybody tries on this thread to stop silly bickering, mindless chat will be posted. However, in a effort to make my opinion known whilst risking the senseless moaning and ill-informed 'chat' from both sides of the fence, I will put my tu'pence worth in now before it all goes mad."
Reply: Thomas Coupling:
"You don't need to come that high all mighty here mallardpi...you're just another pilot saying his bit...ok?
Silly bickering...mindless chat......"
See I told you so, it did go mad.........enough said.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
I don't care, if it is 'damaging military SAR' and I frankly can't see how, then so be it
It says it all when u say "I don't Care" well we do
Justintime80 - I suggest you learn how to read, then learn what punctuation is for and how to interpret its effect on sentences and then grow up - if you are in RAF SAR mate, I can't wait to do your cat check.
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if you are in RAF SAR mate, I can't wait to do your cat check
I thought that kind of attitude had largely dissappeared from the RAF - good to see not all the dinosaurs are extinct.
Freeride - not familiar with the concept of baiting then?
SBW - there is a career for you as an ISS tutor.........oh no that won't work, you have got a sense of humour
SBW - there is a career for you as an ISS tutor.........oh no that won't work, you have got a sense of humour
Crab.
You really do have a problem!
Harmonisation is going to happen, no matter what you/we think or say on this forum.
Just accept it and stop winding up the people you already work with and the people you may work with in the future! You never know, they might be doing your check ride then??
You really do have a problem!
Harmonisation is going to happen, no matter what you/we think or say on this forum.
Just accept it and stop winding up the people you already work with and the people you may work with in the future! You never know, they might be doing your check ride then??
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
I can't wait to do your cat check.
Crab dear fellow....
Statements like that leave you wide open for many forms of retribution. Down Check the wrong Chap or Chapette and you might get yerself a very broken, up turned probiscus one day. You are dealing with helicopter pilots you know.
The UK helicopter business being as small as it is....I fear the hiring process in Civvie Street might not be to your liking either. I can see the fellow screening CV's recognizing the name and making a rounded entry into the round file with your freshly crumpled CV, smiling the entire time.
'Course you and Gymble sound like you are made for one another. So there is hope.
Statements like that leave you wide open for many forms of retribution. Down Check the wrong Chap or Chapette and you might get yerself a very broken, up turned probiscus one day. You are dealing with helicopter pilots you know.
The UK helicopter business being as small as it is....I fear the hiring process in Civvie Street might not be to your liking either. I can see the fellow screening CV's recognizing the name and making a rounded entry into the round file with your freshly crumpled CV, smiling the entire time.
'Course you and Gymble sound like you are made for one another. So there is hope.
