Mt Kelly R44 with sad loss of 4. Speculation thread
Thread Starter
Mt Kelly R44 with sad loss of 4. Speculation thread
Speculators here.
Started as a speculation thread in order to seperate those who wish to speculate from those who wish to express grief, support, sympathy for the loss of four people in the Mt Kelly R44 accident.
This is an optimistic attempt to avoid the often seen bitter disparity between those speculating over causes and those who are grieving whenever these accidents happen to gain a pprune thread.
My fingers are crossed.
Started as a speculation thread in order to seperate those who wish to speculate from those who wish to express grief, support, sympathy for the loss of four people in the Mt Kelly R44 accident.
This is an optimistic attempt to avoid the often seen bitter disparity between those speculating over causes and those who are grieving whenever these accidents happen to gain a pprune thread.
My fingers are crossed.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Maitland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With my head firmly on the chopping block, neck well and truely exposed and my fingers next to the fire....................
Here goes.
One can almost bet that conditions were a tad on the warn side.
Even with 4 light persons on board and some fuel, a 44 is not really the machine for low slow flight over what sounds like unfriendly country.
Companies still get the job using aircraft that can only just get away with it.
Companies still give the job to the cheapest bidder.
It won't be long and the insurance companies will be calling the shots as to what aircaft does the job or it won't be covered for that type of work.
Companies looking to use helicopters will start saying they want very positive power margins in case it gets into some kind of trouble, their "duty of care" to their employees. Of course they won't be too interested in paying for and there will be people who will do the job for crappy money "just to keep it working".
I do wonder if things will get any better.
No that my rant is over, at least there are more NEW machines coming into the country these days. Very pleasing to see...........
Here goes.
One can almost bet that conditions were a tad on the warn side.
Even with 4 light persons on board and some fuel, a 44 is not really the machine for low slow flight over what sounds like unfriendly country.
Companies still get the job using aircraft that can only just get away with it.
Companies still give the job to the cheapest bidder.
It won't be long and the insurance companies will be calling the shots as to what aircaft does the job or it won't be covered for that type of work.
Companies looking to use helicopters will start saying they want very positive power margins in case it gets into some kind of trouble, their "duty of care" to their employees. Of course they won't be too interested in paying for and there will be people who will do the job for crappy money "just to keep it working".
I do wonder if things will get any better.
No that my rant is over, at least there are more NEW machines coming into the country these days. Very pleasing to see...........
OK...let's speculate.
Anyone have the Weight and Balance data for the flight?
Anyone pulled up the weather for the time/location of the flight?
Anyone know what the route of flight, intended takeoff and landings were?
Does anyone know what stage of flight the aircraft was in at the time of the mishap?
Does anyone know of any distress calls being made?
Does anyone know a damn thing that matters?
Answers to all of the above......NO!
Now speculate away boys.....lets hear your tell us what happened and make it convincing....do so with some reference to anything germane to the flight in question if you can.
Why don't you speculate on Cricket or something harmless instead.
Anyone have the Weight and Balance data for the flight?
Anyone pulled up the weather for the time/location of the flight?
Anyone know what the route of flight, intended takeoff and landings were?
Does anyone know what stage of flight the aircraft was in at the time of the mishap?
Does anyone know of any distress calls being made?
Does anyone know a damn thing that matters?
Answers to all of the above......NO!
Now speculate away boys.....lets hear your tell us what happened and make it convincing....do so with some reference to anything germane to the flight in question if you can.
Why don't you speculate on Cricket or something harmless instead.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my Hammock or at the Pub!
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whoa SAS paddle the speed brake to full deployment mate and get below Vne.
I agree and am sure others do aswell with what you have said, however McGowan is shedding some light on what POTENTIALLY may have happend.
There are many instances of hot, high and humid being a factor in ACFT accidents and instances, especially when you fly an underpowered machine like the Robinson.
Yes the ATSB will do their job and report the findings, however discussions about power and lack of it are useful for all to remind us where the envelope is and when we start running out of the power pedal what the consequences can be. No one at this early stage knows exactly what happend including me, however as Helmut said when he started the thread "speculators here!!!"
Maxee
I agree and am sure others do aswell with what you have said, however McGowan is shedding some light on what POTENTIALLY may have happend.
There are many instances of hot, high and humid being a factor in ACFT accidents and instances, especially when you fly an underpowered machine like the Robinson.
Yes the ATSB will do their job and report the findings, however discussions about power and lack of it are useful for all to remind us where the envelope is and when we start running out of the power pedal what the consequences can be. No one at this early stage knows exactly what happend including me, however as Helmut said when he started the thread "speculators here!!!"
Maxee
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where exactly is Mt Kelly please?
North West Queensland.
Look for Mt Isa on this map and you're in the general area.
Heliport
North West Queensland.
Look for Mt Isa on this map and you're in the general area.
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 24th Feb 2006 at 09:09.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Melbourne/Australia
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GET REAL
Get real you people.
R44
4 persons on board
38 degrees C (PLUS)
2 hours of fuel on board
CONFINED areas (GEO survey)
Do the maths
I can only hope that other pilots will learn from someone else's mistake in which they paid the ultimate price.
RIP
Banger
R44
4 persons on board
38 degrees C (PLUS)
2 hours of fuel on board
CONFINED areas (GEO survey)
Do the maths
I can only hope that other pilots will learn from someone else's mistake in which they paid the ultimate price.
RIP
Banger
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As SASless suggests we don't know the finner details and may never know what exactly happened, but it makes those of us who fly around in R44 and similar size machines stop and think.
Do we know what the job was, FLying over areas, or in & out of confined areas?
Flying straight and level at MAUW on a hot day is one thing, flying into confined areas is another, more so if the mechanics fail.
Condolences to the familly and freinds of all involved.
Mullet.
Do we know what the job was, FLying over areas, or in & out of confined areas?
Flying straight and level at MAUW on a hot day is one thing, flying into confined areas is another, more so if the mechanics fail.
Condolences to the familly and freinds of all involved.
Mullet.
Come on you blokes, R44 underpowered. There would be a good chance that no one here has done geo work in a 47 or a KH4. The R44 is a ripper in the power department. They're on par with a 206 due to the fact that when you're doing that type of work you chuck more **** in a 206 cause you can. No one knows and it's all very sad but the ATSB men are good at what they do and they will find out what happened.
My sympathies to all at NAH and Gunpowder Mine and kin of the poor souls.
Red eye
Mt Kelly is in Qld Australia to the North of Mt Isa
My sympathies to all at NAH and Gunpowder Mine and kin of the poor souls.
Red eye
Mt Kelly is in Qld Australia to the North of Mt Isa
Last edited by bellfest; 22nd Feb 2006 at 12:22.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Maitland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an addition to my last post, I think the R44 is a great machine. Yes it has got heaps of power and goes like a cut cat, BUT, 4 POB any fuel on any kind of a warmish day, get out of ground effect and slow the bastard down to crawling speed and you are going to get yourself in the poo if you are not very, very carefull. Old mate in the back says "have a look at that", one second of not paying attention to what you should be doing and you have got the collective up in your armpit trying to stay airbourne. For that matter a 206 close to max weight and you get the same thing.
It can and will happen to anyone......................
It doesn't take an engine failure to crash....................
SASless, if you are close to the ground and it all turns to sticky brown stuff, you would need uncomfortably large goolies to think about making a mad day call. I think I would be trying to get my fat bum out of the trouble it was in first and in this particular case I doubt there would have been time.
No I have not done any survey work in a 44.
Speculating on the cricket is not harmless. Speculating on such a numb arse, boring game would quickly drive me to putting myself out of my misery.......
It can and will happen to anyone......................
It doesn't take an engine failure to crash....................
SASless, if you are close to the ground and it all turns to sticky brown stuff, you would need uncomfortably large goolies to think about making a mad day call. I think I would be trying to get my fat bum out of the trouble it was in first and in this particular case I doubt there would have been time.
No I have not done any survey work in a 44.
Speculating on the cricket is not harmless. Speculating on such a numb arse, boring game would quickly drive me to putting myself out of my misery.......
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: AUS
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've done some top end geo work in a 44 and a 47 and a 206 for that matter and you are regularly close to the limits of everything doing that kind of work in the wet season no matter what machine you are flying. I'm just glad I wasn't doing it 3 or 4 months into my first job. Very sad.
Without pre-empting the subsequent enquiry, what does seem apparent is that the pilot took off at about 0630hrs, so presumably her duty time clocked-on at 0600hrs, and she was scheduled to finish flying at 1930hrs, presumably clocking-off duty at 2000hrs. Flying remote area survey out in the hot dessert, low level, and quite possibly close to or at max AUW, and after 13+ hours of duty time, that's alot for a Chief Pilot to ask of any pilot, let alone an inexperienced one. But in any event, surely an elapsed duty period of 14 hours can't be legal? What gives?
Maybe the non-IFR extension to 15 hrs (I think, haven't used it myself) with the 4 hr rest period in the middle - based on a suitable rest area and no work duties while you're supposed to be 'resting', that is - allowed by the CAO.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Melbourne/Australia
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gulliBell
Welcome to the new era of Fatigue managment systems.
The pilot can only work 16 hours a day 7 days a week for however long the chief pilot says its ok to keep going.
B Souza.
I still carnt believe that people are still doing this work in these machines.
Check out the guy 2 posts after my last. Add his name to the list of next to RIP posts on this thread. I done this work for 15 years, started in 47's then 206 and then 206L and last was the AS350. Still very marginal by the time you took everything into account. These people were in a 44?????????
Banger
The pilot can only work 16 hours a day 7 days a week for however long the chief pilot says its ok to keep going.
B Souza.
I still carnt believe that people are still doing this work in these machines.
Check out the guy 2 posts after my last. Add his name to the list of next to RIP posts on this thread. I done this work for 15 years, started in 47's then 206 and then 206L and last was the AS350. Still very marginal by the time you took everything into account. These people were in a 44?????????
Banger
Blade banger
I take it you were referring to me b-e-l-l-f-e-s-t
You knob jockey. Don't judge who you don't know old fella. I have also done a lot of this work in a lot of different machines and I will stand by my post. An R44 does have lots of power. You can make any machine as marginal as you like, the trick is to fly it accordingly, and that means knowing where you can get in and out of. I would like to make it clear that I am not for one minute speculating on what happened here, that's what the ATSB is for. I am only commenting on the power issue.
P.S-If I am unfortunate enough to meet my maker in a helicopter one day you can lodge your RIP up your judgemental kieber.
I take it you were referring to me b-e-l-l-f-e-s-t
You knob jockey. Don't judge who you don't know old fella. I have also done a lot of this work in a lot of different machines and I will stand by my post. An R44 does have lots of power. You can make any machine as marginal as you like, the trick is to fly it accordingly, and that means knowing where you can get in and out of. I would like to make it clear that I am not for one minute speculating on what happened here, that's what the ATSB is for. I am only commenting on the power issue.
P.S-If I am unfortunate enough to meet my maker in a helicopter one day you can lodge your RIP up your judgemental kieber.
Last edited by bellfest; 23rd Feb 2006 at 08:33.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my Hammock or at the Pub!
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dudes six guns back in the holster.
Power is a relative thing. Compared to a BlackHawk or a Chinook the 44 is the Hyundai Excel of helicopters (or maybe the Dihatsu charade, whatever).
Very few civilian machines have a method of reporting the power available vs the power required in a quick and easy reference gide. Yes the flight manual gives a method for flying a profile to check the power available (eg 95 light out for the B model Squizza) however that doesn't mean **** when you don't know what the power required is. Again depending on your machine and flight manual you may get these graphs included and so on your quiet days you may get into the manual and sus out a couple of worst case scenarios.
Power checks only tell you how much power you have, not how much power you need!
Is there a spread sheet or TOLD Card (Take Off and Landing Data) for the 22 or the 44 or the 47 or the 206 ? Or do folks use the force or hard won experience to work out PA vs PR?
Max
Power is a relative thing. Compared to a BlackHawk or a Chinook the 44 is the Hyundai Excel of helicopters (or maybe the Dihatsu charade, whatever).
Very few civilian machines have a method of reporting the power available vs the power required in a quick and easy reference gide. Yes the flight manual gives a method for flying a profile to check the power available (eg 95 light out for the B model Squizza) however that doesn't mean **** when you don't know what the power required is. Again depending on your machine and flight manual you may get these graphs included and so on your quiet days you may get into the manual and sus out a couple of worst case scenarios.
Power checks only tell you how much power you have, not how much power you need!
Is there a spread sheet or TOLD Card (Take Off and Landing Data) for the 22 or the 44 or the 47 or the 206 ? Or do folks use the force or hard won experience to work out PA vs PR?
Max
