Jam Sandwhiches = Insanity
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Jam Sandwhiches = Insanity
Trawling through other threads and I thought I'd start one on pay and conditions in the RW Industry (here goes!!!!!).
Now before we start we all know that the less experience you have the lower the pay rate and every profession pays less when you are first starting out however what happends when you are finally qualified and on your way.
Example: I Know that the rig pigs in Sale are paid more than the S-76 drivers that ferry them out and back every fortnight. The drivers are ME CIR qualified with at least 3000 hrs tot and 1500 hrs in comd twin with the requisite over water time. They are experienced professionals (before you start no, I don't work oil and gas)
Mining companies pay their miners and staff more than the pilots that ferry them to and from the mines FW and RW. These companies also provide housing accom food and reunioun travel back to wives, families etc after their shifts are complete.
Other Pruners have eluded to the fact that in the future there will be a shortage of RW trained pilots (AKA Rob Rich) however will low supply = high demand = more $$$$$, at this point recent history doesn't support this claim.
Will the global trend be to vote with your feet and leave the industry all together?
Are you happy with what you are being paid? Does the industry need a shake up and a reality check ref what is offered?
Would you/do you work for jam sandwhiches and therefore are we insane???
Lasty
Now before we start we all know that the less experience you have the lower the pay rate and every profession pays less when you are first starting out however what happends when you are finally qualified and on your way.
Example: I Know that the rig pigs in Sale are paid more than the S-76 drivers that ferry them out and back every fortnight. The drivers are ME CIR qualified with at least 3000 hrs tot and 1500 hrs in comd twin with the requisite over water time. They are experienced professionals (before you start no, I don't work oil and gas)
Mining companies pay their miners and staff more than the pilots that ferry them to and from the mines FW and RW. These companies also provide housing accom food and reunioun travel back to wives, families etc after their shifts are complete.
Other Pruners have eluded to the fact that in the future there will be a shortage of RW trained pilots (AKA Rob Rich) however will low supply = high demand = more $$$$$, at this point recent history doesn't support this claim.
Will the global trend be to vote with your feet and leave the industry all together?
Are you happy with what you are being paid? Does the industry need a shake up and a reality check ref what is offered?
Would you/do you work for jam sandwhiches and therefore are we insane???
Lasty
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Just to include what I said on the other thread........
My own experience tells me that if you have 2000 hrs plus and plenty of turbine time there is good demand for your services at the moment in this country and that seems to be steadily increasing. I have had plenty of feedback from companies in the last couple of years saying they can't get quallified pilots to fill vacancies.
However, I notice that this hasn't really translated into better pay and conditions, nor has it motivated companies to increase training budgets to bring pilots up to contract standards. I keep hearing that company X can't get pilots for Katherine or company Y can't get pilots with 50 hours night experience to work in Karratha but I find it hard to belive those pilots aren't around. More likely they just aren't prepared to work in these remote locations for the kind of money that is being offered.
I'm sure there is a reason that mining companies pay their remote workers big dollars, give them good food and accomodation and tour them out of capital cities and I don't think it's because they are just plain generous.
The other thing that may be artificially driving a percieved lack of experienced pilots is the steady increase in hours/qualifications required by companies and customers. In the early to mid 90s you had to get about 1000 hrs (usually mustering) to get out of the bush. Then it was 1500 hrs with 500 turbine and now in a lot of cases companies are wanting 2000 hrs with 500-1000 turbine. This is a very strange type of inflation ??? Was an hour worth more in 1995 ?? Did you learn more per hour 15 years ago ??? Does our safety record in this country support or drive this increase ?? or is it because there was an over supply of pilots that employers and customers could continually increase the required qualifications for a particular position ??? I would think that if, starting tomorrow, operators started hiring 1000 hr piston pilots, providing 206 and AS350 endorsements and then putting the pilots to work there wouldn't be too many companies saying they couldn't get pilots
My own experience tells me that if you have 2000 hrs plus and plenty of turbine time there is good demand for your services at the moment in this country and that seems to be steadily increasing. I have had plenty of feedback from companies in the last couple of years saying they can't get quallified pilots to fill vacancies.
However, I notice that this hasn't really translated into better pay and conditions, nor has it motivated companies to increase training budgets to bring pilots up to contract standards. I keep hearing that company X can't get pilots for Katherine or company Y can't get pilots with 50 hours night experience to work in Karratha but I find it hard to belive those pilots aren't around. More likely they just aren't prepared to work in these remote locations for the kind of money that is being offered.
I'm sure there is a reason that mining companies pay their remote workers big dollars, give them good food and accomodation and tour them out of capital cities and I don't think it's because they are just plain generous.
The other thing that may be artificially driving a percieved lack of experienced pilots is the steady increase in hours/qualifications required by companies and customers. In the early to mid 90s you had to get about 1000 hrs (usually mustering) to get out of the bush. Then it was 1500 hrs with 500 turbine and now in a lot of cases companies are wanting 2000 hrs with 500-1000 turbine. This is a very strange type of inflation ??? Was an hour worth more in 1995 ?? Did you learn more per hour 15 years ago ??? Does our safety record in this country support or drive this increase ?? or is it because there was an over supply of pilots that employers and customers could continually increase the required qualifications for a particular position ??? I would think that if, starting tomorrow, operators started hiring 1000 hr piston pilots, providing 206 and AS350 endorsements and then putting the pilots to work there wouldn't be too many companies saying they couldn't get pilots
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"This should probably be on the Godzone forum because the problem seems confined to Australia/NZ."
This is the forum for issues afffecting helicopter pilots.
We regularly have threads dealing with issues in one country and even one company.
eg The busiest thread on the first page at the moment.
Heliport
This is the forum for issues afffecting helicopter pilots.
We regularly have threads dealing with issues in one country and even one company.
eg The busiest thread on the first page at the moment.
Heliport
What overpitched said about hours inflation seems true in the UK too. When I got my CPL in '99, every operator I got in touch with basically said "we need a minimum of 1000 hours, come back then. In the meantime, best of luck." Last night, I had a quick look at various of the jobs on Flight International .com and they all seemed to be calling for 2-3000 hours, 500 this, 250 that, IR, ME, turbine, specific type ratings and a cat named Zack.
Why this big increase in experience requirements ?
Generally, if employers are becoming more picky it would be an indication that there is a bigger pool of potential employees to choose from, not a shrinking one.
If there is a pilot shortage, it will become insurmountable if every time someone gets some hours under their belt they find that the operators have upped their requirements by more.
Why this big increase in experience requirements ?
Generally, if employers are becoming more picky it would be an indication that there is a bigger pool of potential employees to choose from, not a shrinking one.
If there is a pilot shortage, it will become insurmountable if every time someone gets some hours under their belt they find that the operators have upped their requirements by more.
Heliport,
The worldwide pilot supply/shortage issue is a topic with some merit today. The global nature of our industry, with the ability to move within the various sectors to some degree affects all of us.
The effect of high costs for training in the UK...prompted schools in the USA to offer CAA and later JAA courses. Students with the right Visa could hang around a bit and do some instructing to build hours.
Pretty much all nationalities have been able to find a way to work in the Middle East and Africa no matter the license held. The availability of work and pay levels in the Home countries affected decisions for foreigners to venture forth to those places. The overseas workers reduced the home country supply of pilots and thus changed the dynamics of that situation.
There is a shortage of experienced and capable pilots in the USA...the job adverts show that. The number of operators showing up at the HAI Job Fair is at least double that of last year and includes a couple of foreign operators as well for a change.
The pressing issue for the Helicopter world is how the industry can recruit, train, and retain pilots. That is something the industry has got to find a solution to.
I would suggest the Rotorheads Forum is the exact right place for this discussion as it is not isolated to just one company or one country.
The worldwide pilot supply/shortage issue is a topic with some merit today. The global nature of our industry, with the ability to move within the various sectors to some degree affects all of us.
The effect of high costs for training in the UK...prompted schools in the USA to offer CAA and later JAA courses. Students with the right Visa could hang around a bit and do some instructing to build hours.
Pretty much all nationalities have been able to find a way to work in the Middle East and Africa no matter the license held. The availability of work and pay levels in the Home countries affected decisions for foreigners to venture forth to those places. The overseas workers reduced the home country supply of pilots and thus changed the dynamics of that situation.
There is a shortage of experienced and capable pilots in the USA...the job adverts show that. The number of operators showing up at the HAI Job Fair is at least double that of last year and includes a couple of foreign operators as well for a change.
The pressing issue for the Helicopter world is how the industry can recruit, train, and retain pilots. That is something the industry has got to find a solution to.
I would suggest the Rotorheads Forum is the exact right place for this discussion as it is not isolated to just one company or one country.
So, do you think it would be wise for a European to buy an airline ticket and show up at the job fair ?
Are these "desperate" companies into sponsorships (USA) nowadays ?
Or would I go and sign up for something more "international" ?
Cheers
Are these "desperate" companies into sponsorships (USA) nowadays ?
Or would I go and sign up for something more "international" ?
Cheers
Hit the HAI web site and see what they have posted. It is an excellent show usually, Dallas is a good party town...as to job prospects for a someone without the right to work in the USA...probably not much benefit in that regard. However, the networking one can accomplish by attending seminars and talking to folks cannot be understated. Take yer Resume...business cards...whatever and start shaking hands and introducing yourself when it is appropriate. CHC is going to be there....guess their vaunted computerized HR recruiting system has not been able to fill their needs. I still laugh when I recall their ad looking for pilots rated in the S92 and AB139. Rocket Science!
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Flungdung
I don't think anyone here is whinging or saying they are unhappy with their career. What we are discussing is a predicted pilot shortage in Australia and whether it will eventuate and if so will it affect wages and conditions. Over the last couple of years there has been some increase in wages here as well but based on past threads I guess pilots here still believe there is room for improvement.
Anyone care to nominate a figure and conditions they would realistically be happy with for their operation and experience ???
I don't think anyone here is whinging or saying they are unhappy with their career. What we are discussing is a predicted pilot shortage in Australia and whether it will eventuate and if so will it affect wages and conditions. Over the last couple of years there has been some increase in wages here as well but based on past threads I guess pilots here still believe there is room for improvement.
Anyone care to nominate a figure and conditions they would realistically be happy with for their operation and experience ???
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ME IFR C&T CAPT, OIL & GAS, EMS, Senior Pilot, Chief Pilot etc $130k AUD package
EMS with NVD capability, multi endorsed, swinging roster (thats not a roster manned by swingers) S-76, 412, A-109, $100-110K AUD
Any one else care to add????
Lasty
EMS with NVD capability, multi endorsed, swinging roster (thats not a roster manned by swingers) S-76, 412, A-109, $100-110K AUD
Any one else care to add????
Lasty
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AS350, B206, 500, remote area bush work... Touring 2 on 2 off or month on month off $70-75,000 AUD. or if living on site $80,000-$90,000 +food+accom etc.
First job, piston, remote area etc...Award + award conditions !!
First job, piston, remote area etc...Award + award conditions !!
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pipe-dreaming
personally: flying max hours a year ...& getting paid to do it.
preferably sitting next to a very experienced mentor, so that i might live long enough to one get the opportunity to reciprocate the benefit of such experience.
I'd also like to argue the following; whilst new CPL's are fresh is the best time to recruit them:
1. they co-jo with an experienced pilot & the company ensures that they are getting a return on investment from their workforce
2. experienced pilots get the opportunity to mentor the junior pilots within the industry before they get into any bad habits from shoe-string-budget operations.
3. employees would be higher motivated to maintain loyalty to a company that gives them the leg up, rather than jumping ship at the first best offer that comes along.
4. loyaties might be duly rewarded by employers that are able to retain experienced pilots & not be faced with experienced pilot shortages, at least the minimal experience these pilots might have gained the company is aware of their limitations.
any internships out there for motivated, professional (slightly mature) junior pilots? - not a chance.
any hangar rat positions - plenty (slave labour , no flying, & lots of carrot-dangling & broken promises)
I did 10 years in the Army, unfortuately not in aviation, so i've missed that boat.
a shortage of EXPERIENCED helicopter pilots, with so many low-timers pilots around, & these companies needing experienced jocks; why aren't there any programs that allow for the progressive advancement of junior pilots to a level where they are employable.
the fact is that most juniors without jobs (in Oz) will fly for nothing - what choice do they have in the current environments.
Why aren't some of the larger companies providing programs / scholarships to tap into this vast market of new candidates.
why aren't flying schools tapping into this potential to organise such schemes, so that the students have the higher potential of gaining employment - post license...rather than just taking half a house mortgage...
a company representative (C&T pilot) might also be involved in the final areas of training, so that they can get a feel for who is going to make the grade & not.
consider the expansion scope due to the influx of students that would be required for first school to provide such a scheme & imagine the bottom line of the flying schools that couldn't see beyond the dash of their latest fully-imported european car, let a lone remember a students name...
is it such an insurmountable task?
& why ?
(boy I look forward to this feedback)
cheers
the frustrated pipe-dreamer
preferably sitting next to a very experienced mentor, so that i might live long enough to one get the opportunity to reciprocate the benefit of such experience.
I'd also like to argue the following; whilst new CPL's are fresh is the best time to recruit them:
1. they co-jo with an experienced pilot & the company ensures that they are getting a return on investment from their workforce
2. experienced pilots get the opportunity to mentor the junior pilots within the industry before they get into any bad habits from shoe-string-budget operations.
3. employees would be higher motivated to maintain loyalty to a company that gives them the leg up, rather than jumping ship at the first best offer that comes along.
4. loyaties might be duly rewarded by employers that are able to retain experienced pilots & not be faced with experienced pilot shortages, at least the minimal experience these pilots might have gained the company is aware of their limitations.
any internships out there for motivated, professional (slightly mature) junior pilots? - not a chance.
any hangar rat positions - plenty (slave labour , no flying, & lots of carrot-dangling & broken promises)
I did 10 years in the Army, unfortuately not in aviation, so i've missed that boat.
a shortage of EXPERIENCED helicopter pilots, with so many low-timers pilots around, & these companies needing experienced jocks; why aren't there any programs that allow for the progressive advancement of junior pilots to a level where they are employable.
the fact is that most juniors without jobs (in Oz) will fly for nothing - what choice do they have in the current environments.
Why aren't some of the larger companies providing programs / scholarships to tap into this vast market of new candidates.
why aren't flying schools tapping into this potential to organise such schemes, so that the students have the higher potential of gaining employment - post license...rather than just taking half a house mortgage...
a company representative (C&T pilot) might also be involved in the final areas of training, so that they can get a feel for who is going to make the grade & not.
consider the expansion scope due to the influx of students that would be required for first school to provide such a scheme & imagine the bottom line of the flying schools that couldn't see beyond the dash of their latest fully-imported european car, let a lone remember a students name...
is it such an insurmountable task?
& why ?
(boy I look forward to this feedback)
cheers
the frustrated pipe-dreamer
Last edited by gadgetguru; 16th Feb 2006 at 03:12.
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Gg
I'll try to answer a couple of your points.
personally: flying max hours a year ...& getting paid to do it.
preferably sitting next to a very experienced mentor, so that i might live long enough to one get the opportunity to reciprocate the benefit of such experience.
I don't personally think sitting next to someone is the best wasy to start or to learn. Better to operate single pilot in a fairly controlled environment initially under close supervision.
any internships out there for motivated, professional (slightly mature) junior pilots? - not a chance.
a shortage of EXPERIENCED helicopter pilots, with so many low-timers pilots around, & these companies needing experienced jocks; why aren't there any programs that allow for the progressive advancement of junior pilots to a level where they are employable.
Why aren't some of the larger companies providing programs / scholarships to tap into this vast market of new candidates.
Okay. Good points. But think about the type of company that would be able to offer what you suggest. They would need to be reasonably large, say 10+ ships with a mixed fleet of piston and turbine. They would need quite a varied operation starting with basic tourist work for the low hour guys moving up to charter, fires, power lines and finishing with say offshore or ems at the top. Not many operations like this in Aus and the fews that come close to this do out of necessity hire fresh cpls and work them thru the system. Unfortunately they can only employ so many.
I'll try to answer a couple of your points.
personally: flying max hours a year ...& getting paid to do it.
preferably sitting next to a very experienced mentor, so that i might live long enough to one get the opportunity to reciprocate the benefit of such experience.
I don't personally think sitting next to someone is the best wasy to start or to learn. Better to operate single pilot in a fairly controlled environment initially under close supervision.
any internships out there for motivated, professional (slightly mature) junior pilots? - not a chance.
a shortage of EXPERIENCED helicopter pilots, with so many low-timers pilots around, & these companies needing experienced jocks; why aren't there any programs that allow for the progressive advancement of junior pilots to a level where they are employable.
Why aren't some of the larger companies providing programs / scholarships to tap into this vast market of new candidates.
Okay. Good points. But think about the type of company that would be able to offer what you suggest. They would need to be reasonably large, say 10+ ships with a mixed fleet of piston and turbine. They would need quite a varied operation starting with basic tourist work for the low hour guys moving up to charter, fires, power lines and finishing with say offshore or ems at the top. Not many operations like this in Aus and the fews that come close to this do out of necessity hire fresh cpls and work them thru the system. Unfortunately they can only employ so many.
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13speed
Overpitched
One reason, and a big one at that, for hours/experience increases, I believe, can be squarely blamed on Aviation Auditors.
From my personal experience in the oil and mining helicopter game in the 1990's each auditor (self proclamed experts- must have been, it was printed on their business cards!) seemed he had to prove he was safer than the last one. The only way they could do that was to be more restrictive than their opposition.
These gentlemen also seemed to stop training and upgrading of copilots to command spots for the same reasons.
I was lucky that I was already qualified for all contracts but it made my blood boil to see many careers stoped in their tracks and excellent pilots removed to other jobs because they suddenly didn't have enough hours to do the flying that they had been doing for months.
Don't get me Wrong, I have nothing against safety or properly qualified auditing but it was a ridiculous situation that I think set the industry back quite a bit
One reason, and a big one at that, for hours/experience increases, I believe, can be squarely blamed on Aviation Auditors.
From my personal experience in the oil and mining helicopter game in the 1990's each auditor (self proclamed experts- must have been, it was printed on their business cards!) seemed he had to prove he was safer than the last one. The only way they could do that was to be more restrictive than their opposition.
These gentlemen also seemed to stop training and upgrading of copilots to command spots for the same reasons.
I was lucky that I was already qualified for all contracts but it made my blood boil to see many careers stoped in their tracks and excellent pilots removed to other jobs because they suddenly didn't have enough hours to do the flying that they had been doing for months.
Don't get me Wrong, I have nothing against safety or properly qualified auditing but it was a ridiculous situation that I think set the industry back quite a bit
Last edited by 13speed; 16th Feb 2006 at 10:46.
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Another part of the mix
The whole hours and experience thing I think is only part of the equasion. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very big part.
But another aspect of salaries not being what they should is the bidding wars going on once a contract is issued. I can't speak for the big guns but certainly in the small rotary market to get a contract the bid is as lean as it can be and the only way to shave some money off is in wages. The operators can't control the price of fuel, maintenance, insurance etc but pilot wages - sure. Especially when some eager beaver is sitting willing to fly for less than the last guy.
In the fluffy world of what is good and just, low hour pilots would get paid the award and salaries increases and increments v hours & experience would push the system up from there. It would then be steak once a week and not jam sandwiches.
I love flying and I have worked for far less than the award. I'm not saying salary is irrelevant but it would be nice to see some return for the money invested so far.
PS mayonnaise sandwiches aren't bad either!
But another aspect of salaries not being what they should is the bidding wars going on once a contract is issued. I can't speak for the big guns but certainly in the small rotary market to get a contract the bid is as lean as it can be and the only way to shave some money off is in wages. The operators can't control the price of fuel, maintenance, insurance etc but pilot wages - sure. Especially when some eager beaver is sitting willing to fly for less than the last guy.
In the fluffy world of what is good and just, low hour pilots would get paid the award and salaries increases and increments v hours & experience would push the system up from there. It would then be steak once a week and not jam sandwiches.
I love flying and I have worked for far less than the award. I'm not saying salary is irrelevant but it would be nice to see some return for the money invested so far.
PS mayonnaise sandwiches aren't bad either!
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Trap I know you are paid well and good luck you guys have earn't it. I too am happy with my lot in that Dept. I am wondering if Rob Rich's comments of late will at some point become a reality and hence will this result in better pay and conditions as future contracts are negotiated or will the same old same old prevail?
A recent contract for EMS in SA which required pilots to be multi type endorsed (AS350, 412 and something else) + NVG experience only resulted in a $75k ish package with a difficult rostering system.
Might be better to be the owner of an aviation business in the future rather than an employee, however we all all know how to make a million dollars in aviation, start with 5 million.
Mind you wouldn't mind a sea plane biz in Tassy cruising the Derwent doing pax drop offs, transfers and fishing charters. Then I could buy a house boat and moor my aircraft alongside. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Yikes!!!!
Lasty
A recent contract for EMS in SA which required pilots to be multi type endorsed (AS350, 412 and something else) + NVG experience only resulted in a $75k ish package with a difficult rostering system.
Might be better to be the owner of an aviation business in the future rather than an employee, however we all all know how to make a million dollars in aviation, start with 5 million.
Mind you wouldn't mind a sea plane biz in Tassy cruising the Derwent doing pax drop offs, transfers and fishing charters. Then I could buy a house boat and moor my aircraft alongside. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Yikes!!!!
Lasty
Seems to be the same worldwide:
Gross €3500
Net 2300
Rent 700
Energy 300
Phone/Inet 70
Car insurance and tax100
Fuel to get to work 180
That leaves us 950 for 2 adults and 3 kids
Minus
Minus
Minus
That is considered an above average income…and most pilots make less!
Flying singles and light twins VFR(not low time anymore)
Liter of gas €1.20, USD 1.43, AUD 1.93
Gallon €4.54, USD 5.40, AUD 7.30
Gross €3500
Net 2300
Rent 700
Energy 300
Phone/Inet 70
Car insurance and tax100
Fuel to get to work 180
That leaves us 950 for 2 adults and 3 kids
Minus
Minus
Minus
That is considered an above average income…and most pilots make less!
Flying singles and light twins VFR(not low time anymore)
Liter of gas €1.20, USD 1.43, AUD 1.93
Gallon €4.54, USD 5.40, AUD 7.30
