Instrument Rating to be simplified?

[Garfs]

I was speaking to someone the other day, and they said there is talk of simplifying the Instrument Rating(H) here in the UK to make it more affordable for people?

Has anyone heard anything similar?

Thanks

[SASless]

Alice in Wonderland strikes again!

there is talk of simplifying the Instrument Rating(H) here in the UK to make it more affordable for people?

Now sit back Alice....relax...think about that statement a few minutes. Has that ever happened in any way with the CAA, ever?

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I hear the same - single engine piston IRs will be here soon. It's worth more money to the industry.

TFS

[TheOddOne]

IMC Rating Credit?

FS,

Will my IMC rating give me a credit on this or is it a 'start from scratch' job?

Since we're into speculation territory, how about a 'Grandfather Rights' for the IMC?

Oh, I thought not, just asking...

Cheers,
TOO

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

well it is a rumour network, remember ? I have always considered the CAA's stand on IRs to be farcsical. Anyone who flys a helo without icing protection into cloud is a pratt. People keep getting into trouble in bad weather though and the CFIT is still as popular as ever. The fact that you can do most of your training in a FW and then convert it over to helo makes a mockery of the situation anyway. You're better with an IR than without it. I think sense is about to prevail.

TFS

[SASless]

What does engine power have to do with instrument flying techniques and procedures? Does the donkey know what kind of visibility is outside? It is the Jackass in the pilot's seat that has to consider that part of things.

A whole generation nay...at least two if not three generations of US Army pilots trained on Bell 47 helicopters rigged for instrument training. If one can do a 412 ATP ride in the Sim...why not the instrument rating as well?

We have got to get away from doing it the way Wellington did it folks!

[Camp Freddie]

hey mr flying squirrel

Anyone who flys a helo without icing protection into cloud is a pratt

doesnt that depend on the temperature mate ? you may need engine anti ice and snowmats down at +2c, and pitot heat at +4.5c and below as is required by our company.

but I disagree that I am a pratt if I go into cloud at warmer temperatures than these without anti icing subject to MEL restrictions etc etc.

regards

CF

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I knew I was going to get pulled up on that - I was refering to the masses - Joe and Bill bloggs who don't fly for a living like you CF - These are the people who keep getting killed - A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but some is better than none. I am adamant - It's better to have an affordable full IR than it isn't. I have an IMC - now that's dangerous !

[Helinut]

It's not just the ratings held by a pilot that determine the outcome of IMC - the hele is important too. Put a N Sea pilot with '000 hrs in IMC in a R22 in real IMC and see how long he lasts (not the number of engines but the stability of the aircraft).

However, there is a difference between real IMC and training. There is lots of good value in training in simulated IMC in an unstabilised SE hele. It is amazing how short our memories are, but SE sim IMC training used to be a permitted part of the IR, prior to JAR FCL having its effect on the business.

The acceptance of JAR FCL for hele training by committees of bureaucrats that hardly included any hele pilots was a disaster, and we are still paying the price..........

[mrwellington]

Originally Posted by SASless

We have got to get away from doing it the way Wellington did it folks!

What did I do wrong now ?

[helicopter-redeye]

Originally Posted by kissmysquirrel

So does that mean I should just sit back and wait longer before doing the IR? Looks like Helicopter-Redeye might get busy then!

Think of the potential for the FTOs. A single engined IR rating and a twin IR rating. Double de money.

After spending four hours today flying around in simulated instrument conditions all I can say is ".. my head hurts .." (picture of current eye situation coming up NOW) (focal length now 29")

[fishboy]

Am I missing something here?

I have never been able to understand the CAA's requirement for two engines to get an instrument rating!
I'm not talking about flying actual IMC in a single, but what in the world is wrong with getting an instrument rating in a single engined helicopter?
Everyone knows that having an instrument rating is FAR better than not. Just because a person has the rating does not mean to say that he/she will fly IMC in an ill-equipped machine.
Surely it would make sense to allow someone to complete their instrument rating in a single. When it comes to flying actual IMC/IFR, they would be type-rated in an appropriate aircraft.
Instrument flying is all about the procedures; having an extra engine makes no difference at all to those procedures (for training).
Does one have to do a full instrument rating when they transition from an S61 to a Puma? NO! then why make someone do the whole rating in a particular class?
Maybe I am missing something.....????

[Lightning_Boy]

Nicely put fishboy

[Camp Freddie]

helinut,

Put a N Sea pilot with '000 hrs in IMC in a R22 in real IMC and see how long he lasts (not the number of engines but the stability of the aircraft).

as part of my instrument rating we did about 8 hours on a robbie and I found it easier to control than the squirrel on instruments probably because we were only doing 80 knots instead of 110 in the squirrel.
the squirrel was very difficult to control in pitch and would height bust in a second if you looked away. so I would not not neccesarily agree with your statement.

fishboy

I have never been able to understand the CAA's requirement for two engines to get an instrument rating!

well isnt this all to do with simulating some emergencies in your twin i.e. single engine approaches and go-arounds, cant really simulate that to well in a single except as a IMC auto.

regards

CF

[Woolf]

fishboy:

There is no CAA requirement for two engines at all. You can sign up for a course tomorrow (if you have the spare cash). Only catch is that once you have your single engine IR ticket you are not allowed to fly in IMC with a single engined helicopter in the UK.

[Whirlygig]

But doesn't Bristows in Norwich have a JetRanger with grandfather rights which means you can do the helicopter IR in a single?

Cheers

Whirls

[fishboy]

Originally Posted by Camp Freddie

helinut,

fishboy
well isnt this all to do with simulating some emergencies in your twin i.e. single engine approaches and go-arounds, cant really simulate that to well in a single except as a IMC auto.
regards
elpirata

That's exactly my point, single engine approaches and go arounds have absolutely nothing to do with istrument procedures; they are type rating procedures.
ILS, NDB, GPS, Vectors, VOR, approaches are the same thing choose how many engines you have available. Check out any of the approach plates anywhere in the world and nowhere will you find anything mentioned about different procedures during engine out operation. In fact you can do whatever you want in an emergency.

[Camp Freddie]

woolf,

well yes and no, that is only on 1 jetranger that has grandfather rights with bristow, but you still have to do IR test on type in the twin you intend to fly in.

regards

CF

[Woolf]

CF:

Not quite, your single-engine IR test will be done on the Jetranger.

[Camp Freddie]

woolf,

i didnt mean that, i meant you have to do IRT again on the twin you intend to fly (although thankfully not with the CAA again) as an IR is type specific.

i.e. as well as the IRT on the 206

regards

CF