BAD WEATHER
Flash, Shy & Care Bear, good discussion.. .. .I am a strong believer that NVG use should only be by Instrument rated pilots for the reasons you discuss above. Do you not have to be in the UK Your thoughts?. .. .PS: Happy to start a new threrad these Qs hijack the original.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
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TC, sorry for the hijacking of your thread but i will make this short & sweet.. .Shy TQ I will have to disagree with you again. Newer generations of goggles do not make it easier to go inadvertant IMC. Quite the opposite. Gen 1's were 1960's technology and were generally only used in a helmet mounted mode by the Russian military. Snowflaking is due mainly to low ambient light conditions. Gen's 2, 2+, and 3, utilising Micro plate technology (MCP) are in general use today. With these you can visually identify cloud bases fairly easily. These do have the ability to allow the user to visually penetrate perhaps the first 50' of the base of cloud. You should however, pick up the visual cues of reflected light from your anti-collision beacon and/ or nav lights before getting to this stage. You are correct in the fact that the pilot should always lookout OFF goggles, not only to check for weather (especially snow) but also red obstruction lights - not visible through the goggles. In UK police NVG operations, the goggles are the biggest advancement in Flight Safety for many a year. There is a potential problem if visual contact limits are pushed but most police pilots would sooner RTB than push any limits. As for requiring an Instrument Rating, yes that would be nice but not really necessary providing the crews have undergone a comprehensive NVG training package. I do agree with Droopy in that we should be IFR capable in the police role - it's convincing those who foot the bill.
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Flashman,. .. .You illustrate my point exactly by agreeing that modern NVGs allow penetration of cloud.. .. .The PAOM does not allow penetration of cloud by unrated pilots. The required minimum separation by night is 100ft.
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The question of whether UK police pilots, aircraft and SOPs should "go IFR" has been going the rounds for a while, although very few are at present. One of the few Units that does/did have IR rated pilots and an SPIFR aircraft was the Strathclyde Police, which sadly had a serious night accident recently. This does not mean that IFR is useless for the Police role, but it is also not a panacea. As an IR holding police pilot, the bit that scares me is inadvertent IMC at low level.. .. .The new generation of aircraft are IFR/IMC capable and having a chance at being operated with IFR fuel reserves. However training cost is a major implication, both start-up and recurrent. If anyone involved is not aware, after the end of 2002 it will get very much more expensive for a non-IR rated pilot to acquire an IR. At the moment experienced pilots are exempt from the approved course. After 1 Jan 2003, according to JAR FCL, everyone will need to do an approved course including 55 hours of flying (or expensive simulator). I think most decision makers would be put off by such an "up-front" cost.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 11:47: Message edited by: Helinut ]</small>
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ShyTorque, . .. .Yes I did say NVG's can penetrate cloud but I am not saying pilots should go ahead and do it! My point is that a pilot wearing NVG's will be able to see cloud bases easier than a pilot not wearing them. I am not suggesting that there should be any changes to the curreny PAOM limits for visual contact flying either.. .For Police operations the NVG should normally only be used above 500'.. .. .Helinut,. .. .Very good point. Has anybody approached our Home Office representative as to his thoughts on this subject of IR's for Police pilots? Maybe there is some scope for Home Office funding to offset the costs to the Police. Then I'll wake up!!
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Flash old chap,. .. .I think we are talking in circles here!. .. .I wasn't suggesting that a pilot would go and do it deliberately. It's the inadvertent entry that presents the problem, especially if the pilot doesn't hold an IR, which is about where we came into the debate. . .. .Having flown goggles from the days when there wasn't a helmet mount (we were trialling tank driver's goggles which strapped onto the user's head, over a soft inner from the Mk1A helmet and a throat mike), I was stating an opinion based on my own experiences. Since those days, well over twenty years ago, I have used and instructed on all Gens up to 3 although I'm not doing it for a living now. I maintain that the better a goggle is, the lower the light level a pilot can manage to fly in below decreasing cloudbase and the more trouble he can get himself into when he finally loses visual reference! Been there and done it and I'm not the only one.. .. .Hence my original comment which was merely to emphasise that weather checks need to be done off gogs, which I think you agreed are necessary.. .. .What should a non-IR'd single pilot do if he finds himself inadvertent IMC? The only safe option is to climb to MSA but we all know what often happens, especially if he is convinced he is "only fifty feet in it". That's not to say an IR'd pilot wouldn't do it; the job is an abort once visual contact has been lost.. .. .So an IR doesn't necessarily make the pilot any more effective in police ops because if the crew can't see the job, there isn't a job! An aircraft could be flown IMC to a location but if the cloud is below MSA on arrival at the task location, then what? He has possibly wasted flying hours because had he remained in visual contact below, he would already have turned back. Bearing in mind budgetary constraints it is difficult to sell the IR thing to a lone police authority because the safety aspect is difficult to quantify.. .. .The CAA have remained cautious of NVG for many years now. It's nearly 20 yrs since they first came to speak to the military and they are still wary. .. .I can see the IR thing becoming the big topic and a strong push being made to police operators any time soon.. .. .So we will have to differ, I have my own opinion and I'm sticking to it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Apologies, TC, well off the original thread now!!
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ShyTorque,. .. .My initial response was to your post stating "...best way to identify bad weather is NOT to wear goggles....." which I beg to differ upon. I have also flown with NVG since they were first brought into british military service, they were then known as PNG. Likewise I have also instructed in their use since they were first included in a military pilot course syllabus. I was also qualified as an NVG Cat 2 solo pilot. So we have a similar amount of experience in this department! The later gen's of goggles do indeed allow the user to operate in lower light levels and I can see where your coming from on this point, but a Police pilot should and hopefully would, pick up on the visual cues before getting himself into a situation that would require an IFR recovery. As for the rest of your post, I whole heartedly agree!. .. .TC squawk 7500
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You robbin b****ards!. .I suspect the old chestnut of Police IR spec may, yet again require a separate thread... Any takers -Flashman <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Back to the original thread:. .. .I met a colleague whilst on exchange with the Canadian airforce who was sitting in a night hover at 40', fat dumb and happy. This was near the Bahamas. Suddenly the helo starting rocking violently and water entered through the floor of the a/c. They thought they had drifted down from the coupled hover and contacted the sea! When they hit the landing lights, they found they were still in the hover, sitting on top of a water spout spiralling up from the surface <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
