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What's the latest news of the V22 Osprey?

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What's the latest news of the V22 Osprey?

Old 7th Jul 2011, 11:25
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Israeli AF Looks at MV-22 Capabilities

July 07, 2011
Marine Corps News|by MCAS New River Public Affairs


MARINE CORPS AIR STATION NEW RIVER, N.C. -- For the second time in two months, a team from the Israeli Air Force visited 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing units at Marine Corps Air Station New River to evaluate the Marine Corps' MV-22 Osprey, and aircraft that the Israelis, according to some reports, see as a possible platform for search and rescue operations, and for covert special operations.
The first IAF visit, May 16-26, was conducted by Lt. Col. Nimrod Golan, a UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter pilot, and Lt. Col. Avi Carmeli, a CH-53 Sea Stallion helicopter pilot and Navy graduate test pilot, both with the Israeli Air Force. That was followed June 13-23 by a seven-man team led by Golan and Carmeli.
"An invitation came from the Marines to the Israeli Air Force to explore this aircraft and though currently, there is no procurement process on the table, we were very happy to follow this invitation," said Golan. "We are looking at the aircraft, trying to understand how the Osprey can contribute to our operational requirements and also have an understanding of its implementation. In addition, this is a great opportunity to enhance our relationship and cooperation with the Marines."


The Israeli pilots spent their first visit with Marines of Marine Medium Tiltrotor Training Squadron 204 gaining an overall familiarization of the Osprey and examining its capabilities related to reducing the risks to pilots, aircrews and passengers on the battlefield. The overall intent of the visit was to learn about MV-22 systems and performance, and to become "well oriented" with the aircraft.


"In order to be prepared for our June visit, we had to get some basic knowledge and basic skills, which is what '204 gave us," said Golan. "We were exposed for the first time to this technology called tiltrotor, and not just exposed academically ... it was an amazing experience."
Their second visit, with Marine Tiltrotor Test and Evaluation Squadron 22 and Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 365, "... was the core of the whole evaluation process," said Golan, as the Israelis looked more deeply into the aircraft's capabilities and maintenance process. "We conducted a variety of flights in order to operationally evaluate the aircraft. We got the tools the last time we were here," said Golan. "Now we are flying to learn to operate."
After spending time in simulators, the visitors experienced the full capabilities of the aircraft with training flights that included familiarization, tactical approaches, confined area landings, low altitude tactics, formations and night flights with the goal of assessing the aircraft's potential value to the IAF. With only 10 hours of MV-22 flight time, one of the visiting CH-53 pilots, flying a VMM-365 Osprey, conducted aerial refueling with a KC-130J from Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 252, where he was rated as "on par with any other transition pilot."
Perhaps most importantly, the visiting pilots experienced the MV-22's trademark features of speed, range and maneuverability - proven advantages over the helicopters that the Osprey has replaced. They learned, first hand, how the Osprey can keep its crews and passengers above the threat of ground fire during flight, and how its maneuverability, particularly its ability to rapidly accelerate and decelerate, reduces exposure to threats during approach and departure. As 2nd MAW Commanding General Maj. Gen. Jon Davis has been known to say, "By the time the bad guys know you're there, you're already gone.
As with any military personnel exchange, other benefits were realized. Both visits were a learning experience for the seasoned Israeli pilots on how U.S. Marines operate, and for the Marines who worked with them.
"We are not too different from each other, we think the same and understand each other very well," said Carmeli.
"We came to agree on most topics and how to accomplish the missions." Golan added, "The Marines did a marvelous job with their hospitality and professionalism, it took a lot of effort and they are very good people here."



Israeli AF Looks at MV-22 Capabilities
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Old 7th Jul 2011, 12:42
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"By the time the bad guys know you're there, you're already gone.
Provided there are no Bad Guys where you are going....or where you land...anyway!

What happens when your Intel is wrong....as it has been known to be completely wrong?

The Marine Corps must have embraced Coca-Cola company policy....work for Coke and get caught drinking a Pepsi....and you best have your Resume up to date because you shall need it to be.
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Old 7th Jul 2011, 13:08
  #1123 (permalink)  
 
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Marine aviation -- ancient CH-53 helos, hangar queen V-22s, and multi-role expensive fighter jets -- when what the Corps should be flying is Black Hawks and A-10s, or even long-legged prop-driven aircraft.

For Dan Reno: possibly the most ill considered post I've seen in re USMC aviation in a while.

A-10 not ship capable.

We discussed the Black Hawk problem before. USMC didn't replace the Phrog with a Black Hawk due to both space limitations on a gator, and having to DOUBLE your pilot manning to lift the same number of Marines anywhere.

USMC and all services are still looking at where manpower can be cut or better allocated (been watching that nut roll since the mid 90's, it's an interesting process).

At the same time, the political leadership requires a huge variety of response capability. With that reality in mind, you get force packages that are chosen on more than the basis of GAAP. (Hence the CVNs continued life ...)
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Old 7th Jul 2011, 14:04
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lonewolf

For Dan Reno: possibly the most ill considered post I've seen in re USMC aviation in a while
.


I'm just the messenger in this case so in the future, kindly direct your opinions to the author if you have a beef with the article and tell us ALL what he says. We'd really be interested to hear his rebuttal.


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Old 7th Jul 2011, 14:41
  #1125 (permalink)  
 
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Dan, by posting that, you are choosing to be the advocate for that position on this discussion forum.

I respond here because you post it here.

If you don't wish to engage in discussion of points you introduce, why bother to introduce them?

Later Edit:

By the way, Dan, the whole "use Blackhawk" (which would relate to the Navy Helo Master Plan, also a child of the 90's that amounted to single source procurement) is an issue put to bed in the 90's.

Current year is 2011.

Might be useful to keep up.
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Old 7th Jul 2011, 19:01
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Provided there are no Bad Guys where you are going....or where you land...anyway!
What happens when your Intel is wrong....as it has been known to be completely wrong?
Sas,
You are right, but that applies to both helicopters and tiltrotors alike. The point is that tiltrotors can in fact get in and out faster and more quietly. The debate comes down to whether or not that additional capability is worth the very high price increase. The USMC after their experience in Iraq and Afghanistan have answered with a resounding positive vote.
21stC

Last edited by 21stCentury; 8th Jul 2011 at 11:16.
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Old 7th Jul 2011, 20:16
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lonewolf wrote:

you are choosing to be the advocate
Ha! Ha! Show me where that is written!

Like I said, if you have a problem with what's written here, write the author and whine to him about it AND please SHARE with us what he tells you.

Ha! Ha!

Last edited by Dan Reno; 7th Jul 2011 at 22:31.
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 12:19
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Back under the bridge, Dan. You'll get sunburned if you stay out too long.
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 13:51
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21st....in a post a year or so ago I described the airshow I attended over an 18 hour period in the netherlands of Camp LeJeune while anchored in Mile Hammock Bay. Along with the airshow (USMC Ospreys, 46's, and 53's) that took place in both daylight and dark (added to by Recon Marines doing swim quals) I was given a wonderful way to compare the various aircraft doing their thing into the very same LZ's all within very close proximity to my location.

At that time (both the day and later the post recounting it) I expressed my view that the Osprey was fast but that it was not really all that quieter. Depending upon the angle it was approaching from in its flight path it was quieter than the 53 but once in the approach and hover modes all of the aircraft were just about as loud as the other. At a hover the Osprey is much louder than the 46 and quite a bit louder than the 53 due to Prop Rotor noise

Yes...staying high and flying in airplane mode is faster and higher than normal helicopter speeds and heights but once you near the LZ.....that advantage is lost. The one thing I did notice....the approach speeds of all the aircraft seemed way too slow for Tactical Conditions. Whether that was a function of stage of training of the pilot flying or Unit SOP is unknown. Looking back on two combat tours flying Chinooks in Vietnam.....all the aircraft were way too slow on approach and take off and none used any maneuver that could be considered "evasive tactics". Again....being not knowing of what they were tasked to do that day....it would be unfair to suggest they were not training to reality but....but....in a genuine combat enviornment....pretty text book approaches and takeoff's just don't get it.

As to proximity of my view....I could easily see the individual lights on the aircraft at night and tell whether the crewmen on the helicopters were sticking their heads out of the hatches. I was close.

The Recon guys were good fun....every now and then I would pound on the side of the boat to get their attention when it was plain they were missing their turn point next to my boat. I sent them home with a case of ice cold Heinies!
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 16:14
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Personal attack..how classy lonely wolf, I guess we can assume the article's author also told you to take a hike.

No need to get hysterical over anything posted here.

Last edited by Dan Reno; 8th Jul 2011 at 16:27.
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 17:25
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Hi Sas,
Thanks for that. I do remember your 'airshow' post well although I thought there was a green rum drink or something being consumed rather than the Heinies??


I have seen Osprey approaches (as well as XV-15 and 609), but never had the opportunity to see side by side approaches with other a/c as you had the opportunity to see:
....an Osprey is doing night landings a bit closer than the 53D did.
Observations....
The 53D is a classic!
The 22 is fast, quiet approaching, but noiser than the 53D at a hover.
You have been around the block more than a couple of times, so I completely trust your comparison assessment, although if you're like me our hearing capability after a few decades in the business makes all the sound seem quieter than it actually is!

From what you observed I think we can agree that the tiltrotor is much more quiet enroute and on approach to the LZ. My point would be that once you arrive at the LZ, it doesn't make much of a difference if you are 'loud' like a CH-53 or 'louder' like a V-22 in the hover. If the bad guys are there when you arrive, they will already know you are there regardless.

I previously linked the video below that shows how much more quiet an approaching tiltrotor is compared to what we fly now. I don't know if it is purely the decibel numbers or if it is the frequency of the sound, but there is a very big difference.


BTW, could you PM me the recipe for that green rum drink, it sounded very interesting!

21stC

Last edited by 21stCentury; 8th Jul 2011 at 18:52.
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 19:01
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Dan:

Assumption fail, on your part.

Your lack of a point to make, your own lack of argument, your own lack of counter argument, remain noted. Post and run tactics (again) noted. Post and hide tactic is an age old symptom of bridge-shadow dwelling.

Have a great weekend, Dan.
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 19:29
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SASless: just a point, which got eaten last time I tried to post it.

Hot LZ's have been a non trivial tactical problem for a while. I imagine you were in a few yourself. What has happened since your days in the field is that LZ's have become more lethal as they get "hot" given that MG, small arms, mortars, hand held rockets, hand held SAMs, and other weapons have gotten more lethal and more accurate.

(Somalia "Blackhawk Down" incident a fine case in point).

It's the year 2011. Some things haven't changed.

Something that has changed are the means by which one can assess and recon an LZ. I am pretty sure that it isn't just V-22's that are averse to hot LZ's. I don't think any Blackhawk, Huey, Chinook, or 53 driver has a squadron tactical SOP that mandates flying into hot LZ's as the prefered option.

Seems to me that in the intervening 40 years, with sensor ability improving, the tactical mind set is to find LZ's that aren't, or to bring significant supressive fires along to do some temperature control.

The means of doing that has improved as well.

The outstanding feature that the Marine's paid for, it seems, is speed.

What the Congress funded, and continues to fund, is a non-trivial number of high tech jobs, and improving and sustaining the industrial base, and industrial capability. Whether or not that's a perfect discharge of their duties is open to debate, but I suspect that the representatives and senators in the Prime's state, and the states of the subs, entered that feature into their calculus right along with the USMC's need for speed.

Remember that trick question in flight school?

"What makes a plane fly, young man?"
"Lift and thrust, sir."
"Not so, young man," says the instructor.

He reaches into his wallet for a dollar bill. He tosses it into the air, then watches it drift to the floor.

"What makes airplanes fly is money."
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 21:12
  #1134 (permalink)  
 
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Geeze lonely wolf,

I cut & paste an article you don't like and you're giving me grief, twice, even after I reminded you I'm the messenger and you need to talk to the originator. You still want me to argue with you. Huh? There's life outside the V-22 Pal and I suggest you take up any beef you have with the article's author. I suspect he'll simply direct here to talk: Talk to Me - I WIll Listen
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Old 8th Jul 2011, 21:17
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I think the simple fact here is that unlike 46/s53s/60s/etc, which can be heard MILES away from an LZ during approach, especially in the valleys, the V22 is almost audibly undetectable until it starts conversion. Thats what is universally being referred to when you read these anecdotes regarding its quietness.

Sure, in hover its as loud as anything, but you didnt announce your presence 15 minutes prior.
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Old 9th Jul 2011, 04:12
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LW,

Feel free to challenge my comments here....the Somalia shoot downs were due to our guys becoming predictable and doing the deal in the daylight rather than in the dark. The Skinny's had also figured out how to shoot RPG's vertically by modifying the exhaust ends of the launchers.

Our guys put themselves into the situation where the bad guys knew their tactics....took advantage of that....had daylight instead of darkness...and sought out our weaknesses and expolited that.

The senior commanders failed to plan for the contingency that occurred....Blackhawks getting shot down....becoming fixed in place...losing the advantage of maneuver....did not have a fall back plan....and had not arranged for a relief force in advance of the operation.

Bottom line....our guys diddled the pooch and some very brave young men paid a very heavy priice for the failure of the Commanders to properly plan and execute the operation. Exactly the same as happened in Afghanistan during the Takur Ghar debacle.

My point is despite all the hi-tech gear and sophisticated systems....well thought out SOP's.....when you underestimate your enemy or over value their capabilities....bad things happen. Bad guys have good days too!

The Osprey is fast, quieter than helicopters in cruise....but in the final analysis....it takes guns to counter hostile threats. That is not the Osprey's strong suit....especially when compared to the helicopters it is to replace.

Plans only work right up to the point where contact is made with the enemy.

All the sensors failed at Takur Ghar....and helicopters got shot down....folks died. Be it today or forty years ago...when the shooting starts it is all the same. Fifty One's at close range today are the same as used forty years ago....RPG's are RPG's....and yes....SA-7's are the same. Human presence and their capabilities to view the battlefield and make accurate judgements were overruled by Commanders literally thousands of miles away and completely isolated from the battlefield. Input from the guys on the scene was ignored.....and good brave men died as a direct result.

Need I refer you to accounts of that combat action to support my statements?
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Old 10th Jul 2011, 22:12
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SAS

You need to run to another thread as your boy Dan Reno has thrown the Chinook under the bus. Apparently it is coming out that two competent pilots can not fly a Chinook in peace time without anyone shooting at them and expect to not crash in IMC. An Osprey would have flown above the fog.

What was it 29 dead because a Chinook can not fly in anything except VFR conditions?

The Sultan
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Old 10th Jul 2011, 23:27
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Sultan

Geeze,

Another guy who doesn’t realize the difference between someone who's a messenger and someone who's an author. Unless of course you're just being a troll today and wanting to stir something up with immature name-calling. Wise up. This is an adults ONLY blog.

Ha Ha!
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Old 10th Jul 2011, 23:58
  #1139 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dan Reno View Post
Sultan

Geeze,

Another guy who doesn’t realize the difference between someone who's a messenger and someone who's an author. Unless of course you're just being a troll today and wanting to stir something up with immature name-calling. Wise up. This is an adults ONLY blog.

Ha Ha!
Dan,

It is obvious to any reader of this thread (PPRuNe is not, and never has been, a blog) that you have taken a firm anti V-22 stance. To try to derail the discussion by intimating that you are 'just the messenger' shows a degree of immaturity that astounds me.

You have had a massive amount of latitude with the posts that you have made over the years, but that forbearance has now reached its limit. Either discuss the issue, or stay away.

Enough is enough
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Old 11th Jul 2011, 13:38
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I wasn't aware that negative articles on ANY subject required quotation remarks around it so that it wouldn't be directly attributed to oneself. I must have missed that in the rules as I assumed a reference to the source of the article would have been sufficient as others here neither use quotes or reference the originators. I apologize for this error.
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