Night engine out auto: video link
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OK, I too am guilty of analyzing this one to death, only because it is my main phobia - power loss at night over a heavily developed area. I've seen three different versions of the tape, on one it sounds like "flare", another it sounds like "wires", so I dunno.
As far as the first part of the emergency goes, first, here's the helicopter they were flying: Schweizer 333 (click here for technical info). No auto-relight (AFAIK), so I suspect they were speaking of autorotation. The "beep-beep-beep" in the background sounds a lot like the low rotor-RPM horn on the 300CBi, but I've never been in a runnning 333 so I make no claims. But if they were on a steep climbout when the fire sputtered and died, it could take awhile to get airspeed and RPM back. Again, I wasn't there so am just speculating.
Bottom line for me is that if I am faced with a similar situation, I hope it comes out that well - anything better is gravy for certain.
As far as the first part of the emergency goes, first, here's the helicopter they were flying: Schweizer 333 (click here for technical info). No auto-relight (AFAIK), so I suspect they were speaking of autorotation. The "beep-beep-beep" in the background sounds a lot like the low rotor-RPM horn on the 300CBi, but I've never been in a runnning 333 so I make no claims. But if they were on a steep climbout when the fire sputtered and died, it could take awhile to get airspeed and RPM back. Again, I wasn't there so am just speculating.
Bottom line for me is that if I am faced with a similar situation, I hope it comes out that well - anything better is gravy for certain.
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Are the last words 'Flare! Flare! ? Sounds like 'Flare'.......
At least they walked away from a very difficult situation.......they get my vote for a job well done despite some of the post-mortem comments on this thread!
At least they walked away from a very difficult situation.......they get my vote for a job well done despite some of the post-mortem comments on this thread!
YA the guy gets my vote on a job well done, sounds like the co pilot shouts Flare then Wires. Regardless of what he said they both lived to fly another day. Welcome back polarbear, how was the trip
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Don't forget, he did strike wires, and having struck objects in the final stages of an auto myself, the control of the aircraft following is weak to say the least.
Can't view the film myself, too bad.
Can't view the film myself, too bad.
Crab and his supporters:
What exactly is this forum called?
What is the purpose of the forum?
What do you expect a gang of helo drivers to gaggle about when something like this happens?
Lighten up, mate, it's just jabberwocking, OK?
What exactly is this forum called?
What is the purpose of the forum?
What do you expect a gang of helo drivers to gaggle about when something like this happens?
Lighten up, mate, it's just jabberwocking, OK?
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Those of you speaking of regulation by the FAA need to remember that in the US, the FAA has no brief whatsoever to regulate public use aircraft. An aircraft operated by any government entity - federal, state, county, city, or whatever else - is not under the jurisdiction of the FAA. The pilot requires no FAA license or rating of any kind, no maintenance is required, and FAA regulations do not apply.
In reality, most departments comply with the license regulation but not all, certainly not the military. Everything is at the discretion of the government entity operating the aircraft. This will not change in the foreseeable future.
As for what could have caused the engine to quit - there are lots of things. Sometimes they just decel to idle on their own, due to a fuel control or governor malfunction, sometimes internal parts break. Fuel is always a possibility, both starvation and contamination, but that wouldn't be my first guess.
FWIW, it sounds to me like the final two shouts are "Flare, wires", but I can't be sure, and certainly wouldn't use them as a basis for casting any aspersions anywhere. As for the "Auto" comments, from the tone and inflections, he's calling for the PF to enter autorotation. There ain't no autorelight on those machines, AFAIK.
In reality, most departments comply with the license regulation but not all, certainly not the military. Everything is at the discretion of the government entity operating the aircraft. This will not change in the foreseeable future.
As for what could have caused the engine to quit - there are lots of things. Sometimes they just decel to idle on their own, due to a fuel control or governor malfunction, sometimes internal parts break. Fuel is always a possibility, both starvation and contamination, but that wouldn't be my first guess.
FWIW, it sounds to me like the final two shouts are "Flare, wires", but I can't be sure, and certainly wouldn't use them as a basis for casting any aspersions anywhere. As for the "Auto" comments, from the tone and inflections, he's calling for the PF to enter autorotation. There ain't no autorelight on those machines, AFAIK.
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NTSB Identification: FTW04TA076
14 CFR Public Use
Accident occurred Thursday, February 19, 2004 in San Antonio, TX
Aircraft: Schweizer 269D, registration: N255TP
Injuries: 2 Minor.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On February 19, 2004, approximately 0245 central standard time, a Schweizer 269D single-engine helicopter, N255TP, sustained substantial damage during a hard landing following a loss of engine power while in cruise flight near San Antonio, Texas. The commercial pilot and sole passenger sustained minor injuries. The helicopter was registered to and operated by the San Antonio Police Department for public use police missions. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a flight plan was not filed. The helicopter departed the Stinson Municipal Airport (SSF), near San Antonio, Texas, approximately 5 minutes prior to the accident, and was enroute to a police emergency.
According to the San Antonio Police Department personnel, shortly after the helicopter departed SSF enroute to a police emergency, the pilot noticed a "spike" on the torque gauge. The flight crew then heard a "bang", followed by an aural engine warning horn, and a subsequent loss of engine power. The pilot initiated an autorotation to a vacant grocery store parking lot. During the autorotation, the pilot avoided striking power lines, and the helicopter landed hard on the parking lot surface. The helicopter skidded and came to rest upright in the parking lot.
Examination of the helicopter revealed the skids were spread, the tailboom was punctured and bent, the left horizontal stabilizer was partially separated, one main rotor blade was separated, and both tail rotor blades were separated. The helicopter was recovered for further examination.
14 CFR Public Use
Accident occurred Thursday, February 19, 2004 in San Antonio, TX
Aircraft: Schweizer 269D, registration: N255TP
Injuries: 2 Minor.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On February 19, 2004, approximately 0245 central standard time, a Schweizer 269D single-engine helicopter, N255TP, sustained substantial damage during a hard landing following a loss of engine power while in cruise flight near San Antonio, Texas. The commercial pilot and sole passenger sustained minor injuries. The helicopter was registered to and operated by the San Antonio Police Department for public use police missions. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a flight plan was not filed. The helicopter departed the Stinson Municipal Airport (SSF), near San Antonio, Texas, approximately 5 minutes prior to the accident, and was enroute to a police emergency.
According to the San Antonio Police Department personnel, shortly after the helicopter departed SSF enroute to a police emergency, the pilot noticed a "spike" on the torque gauge. The flight crew then heard a "bang", followed by an aural engine warning horn, and a subsequent loss of engine power. The pilot initiated an autorotation to a vacant grocery store parking lot. During the autorotation, the pilot avoided striking power lines, and the helicopter landed hard on the parking lot surface. The helicopter skidded and came to rest upright in the parking lot.
Examination of the helicopter revealed the skids were spread, the tailboom was punctured and bent, the left horizontal stabilizer was partially separated, one main rotor blade was separated, and both tail rotor blades were separated. The helicopter was recovered for further examination.
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I have flown single engine police helicopters at night over dense urban areas, and I gotta say the pilot did a great job. Just a couple of minutes earlier these guys were sitting comfortably in the hangar when the alarm rings for a pursuit. I can tell you the adrenaline floods your body as you crank up the machine and try to catch up to the chase. Then bang, and we saw what happened.
The guy you hear is not the pilot most likely, nor is he one.
The helicopter can be replaced.
The guy you hear is not the pilot most likely, nor is he one.
The helicopter can be replaced.
Last edited by flint4xx; 2nd Mar 2004 at 11:37.
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Good to see that pilot and occupant got out allright.
I hope that the engine failure is not related to a malfunction/breakage of the pipe that is connected between the Gas compressor and the fuel regulator because if it is this wasn't the first one that happened to this particular engine.
The beep-beep-beep sound comes from the engine out anunciator. This model hasn't got a low rotor warning light see aircraft spec's earlier message.
Will be following this tread and accident outcome with interest.
Fly safe
I hope that the engine failure is not related to a malfunction/breakage of the pipe that is connected between the Gas compressor and the fuel regulator because if it is this wasn't the first one that happened to this particular engine.
The beep-beep-beep sound comes from the engine out anunciator. This model hasn't got a low rotor warning light see aircraft spec's earlier message.
Will be following this tread and accident outcome with interest.
Fly safe
Last edited by Nomads; 3rd Mar 2004 at 08:55.
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On the NTSB report posted by flygunz, it states the aircraft type as a 269, not a 333, making it a piston ship.
Well done to the crew, any landing you can walk away from is a good one.
Well done to the crew, any landing you can walk away from is a good one.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Auto at Night
Good skills to the pilot for getting the ship down safely and avoiding civilian casualties.
As for who said what and what should have been said, and wether the camera is gyroscopically drive etc etc bla bla bla. When it comes down to the crunch guys, how many of you could have done that better or at least as good (Be honest now)
Seems there is a bit of confusion here. We are professional pilots not sound engineers, maybe we should think about that for a second and then read over what has been said.
I like the safety of the twin setup, but credit to the single engine guys.
Balls like hemispheres
MD
As for who said what and what should have been said, and wether the camera is gyroscopically drive etc etc bla bla bla. When it comes down to the crunch guys, how many of you could have done that better or at least as good (Be honest now)
Seems there is a bit of confusion here. We are professional pilots not sound engineers, maybe we should think about that for a second and then read over what has been said.
I like the safety of the twin setup, but credit to the single engine guys.
Balls like hemispheres
MD
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Is that NTSB report about the same accident?
The still photo of the ship posted not long after the crash clearly does not show a 269d (or even a 369d - in case of a typo). It looks very 333 to me (which I have to say, to my very narrow view is one of the ugliest turbines ever built
)
The audio on the video also sounds very turbine so I am left wondering about the posted NTSB report.
Anyone seen the real report?
RR
The still photo of the ship posted not long after the crash clearly does not show a 269d (or even a 369d - in case of a typo). It looks very 333 to me (which I have to say, to my very narrow view is one of the ugliest turbines ever built
) The audio on the video also sounds very turbine so I am left wondering about the posted NTSB report.
Anyone seen the real report?
RR
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Believe it or not, the 333 is still riding on the 269 type certificate!
The 300C is a 269C,
the 300CB and CBi are 269C-1,
the 330 and 333 are 269D!
FAA TCDS info
The 300C is a 269C,
the 300CB and CBi are 269C-1,
the 330 and 333 are 269D!
FAA TCDS info
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How did this end (video link)??
Friend of mine mailed this link to me, (thanks Dave).
Engine failure at night, seen through FLIR
Its a big file so I thought it best just to post the link.
Interesting video. Does anyone know anything about it or has it done the rounds before?
Video link
Engine failure at night, seen through FLIR
Its a big file so I thought it best just to post the link.
Interesting video. Does anyone know anything about it or has it done the rounds before?
Video link
Last edited by IntheTin; 12th Dec 2005 at 17:25.
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I think it was a Shweizer 333 in Phoenix (?).
Both guys survived, but beaten up and the aircraft was totalled. They were on a police patrol soon after takeoff when the engine quit. They managed to get over one set of high voltage lines, then missed another set before impact.
Both guys survived, but beaten up and the aircraft was totalled. They were on a police patrol soon after takeoff when the engine quit. They managed to get over one set of high voltage lines, then missed another set before impact.
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There was a long thread on this group about it soon after it happened. Guess it could be found with a search.
Thread included a link to photo of the aircraft on the ground (I recall it had the skids ripped off but was sitting upright on its belly.)
Also long discussions about the audio and whether the words "auto" were to do with an auto-rotation or auto-relight and whether the words "flare, flare" were appropriate given the usual night auto technique is a constant attitude pitch pull at the bottom.
RR
Thread included a link to photo of the aircraft on the ground (I recall it had the skids ripped off but was sitting upright on its belly.)
Also long discussions about the audio and whether the words "auto" were to do with an auto-rotation or auto-relight and whether the words "flare, flare" were appropriate given the usual night auto technique is a constant attitude pitch pull at the bottom.
RR
Thread link: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...h&pagenumber=1
Final report:
"The 493-hour pilot reported that approximately 5 minutes after departure, he noticed a "slight change in engine noise." Subsequently, he
heard a "bang," followed by an aural engine warning horn, and a loss of engine power. The pilot initiated an autorotation, and during
the autorotation, the helicopter impacted power lines, landed hard on a parking lot surface and came to rest upright. A witness located
adjacent to the helicopter's flight path reported hearing a "loud backfire" followed by subsequent white smoke coming from the
helicopter. Review of the aircraft maintenance records revealed the engine was overhauled approximately 295 hours prior to the accident.
During the engine overhaul, the impeller travel (bump clearance) was measured to be approximately .010 inches. During the engine
teardown examination, prior to the removal of the compressor rotor from the rear support, the impeller travel (bump clearance) was
measured to be approximately 0.021 inches. The third, fifth, and sixth stage vane assemblies were bent in the direction of rotation.
Corresponding damage was observed on the trailing edges of the blades on the adjacent forward compressor rotors. Fretting and score
marks noted on the compressor assembly components were consistent with axial movement at the compressor assembly resulting in contact
between the compressor blades and vanes, and a subsequent compressor stall and loss of engine power."
and...
"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.
The loss of engine power due to the axial movement of the compressor rotor blades contacting the compressor vanes resulting in a
subsequent compressor stall. A contributing factor was the improper assembly of the compressor section during the engine overhaul by
unknown maintenance personnel.
Accident (Continued)
Occurrence #1: LOSS OF ENGINE POWER
Phase of Operation: CRUISE
Findings
1. (F) MAINTENANCE,OVERHAUL - IMPROPER - OTHER MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL
2. (C) COMPRESSOR ASSEMBLY - SHIFTED
3. COMPRESSOR ASSEMBLY - STALL
----------
Occurrence #2: FORCED LANDING
Phase of Operation: MANEUVERING - TURN TO LANDING AREA (EMERGENCY)
Findings
4. AUTOROTATION - INITIATED - PILOT IN COMMAND
----------
Occurrence #3: IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH OBJECT
Phase of Operation: DESCENT - EMERGENCY
Findings
5. MANEUVER TO AVOID OBSTRUCTIONS - PERFORMED - PILOT IN COMMAND
6. OBJECT - WIRE,TRANSMISSION
----------
Occurrence #4: HARD LANDING
Phase of Operation: DESCENT - EMERGENCY
Findings
7. TERRAIN CONDITION - GROUND
Findings Legend: (C) = Cause, (F) = Factor
Time (Local): 02:45 CST Aircraft Reg No. N255TP San Antonio, TX 02/19/2004 File No. 16718
FTW04GA076"
Auto at night over a built up area, and they both walked away. Good result alround.
Final report:
"The 493-hour pilot reported that approximately 5 minutes after departure, he noticed a "slight change in engine noise." Subsequently, he
heard a "bang," followed by an aural engine warning horn, and a loss of engine power. The pilot initiated an autorotation, and during
the autorotation, the helicopter impacted power lines, landed hard on a parking lot surface and came to rest upright. A witness located
adjacent to the helicopter's flight path reported hearing a "loud backfire" followed by subsequent white smoke coming from the
helicopter. Review of the aircraft maintenance records revealed the engine was overhauled approximately 295 hours prior to the accident.
During the engine overhaul, the impeller travel (bump clearance) was measured to be approximately .010 inches. During the engine
teardown examination, prior to the removal of the compressor rotor from the rear support, the impeller travel (bump clearance) was
measured to be approximately 0.021 inches. The third, fifth, and sixth stage vane assemblies were bent in the direction of rotation.
Corresponding damage was observed on the trailing edges of the blades on the adjacent forward compressor rotors. Fretting and score
marks noted on the compressor assembly components were consistent with axial movement at the compressor assembly resulting in contact
between the compressor blades and vanes, and a subsequent compressor stall and loss of engine power."
and...
"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.
The loss of engine power due to the axial movement of the compressor rotor blades contacting the compressor vanes resulting in a
subsequent compressor stall. A contributing factor was the improper assembly of the compressor section during the engine overhaul by
unknown maintenance personnel.
Accident (Continued)
Occurrence #1: LOSS OF ENGINE POWER
Phase of Operation: CRUISE
Findings
1. (F) MAINTENANCE,OVERHAUL - IMPROPER - OTHER MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL
2. (C) COMPRESSOR ASSEMBLY - SHIFTED
3. COMPRESSOR ASSEMBLY - STALL
----------
Occurrence #2: FORCED LANDING
Phase of Operation: MANEUVERING - TURN TO LANDING AREA (EMERGENCY)
Findings
4. AUTOROTATION - INITIATED - PILOT IN COMMAND
----------
Occurrence #3: IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH OBJECT
Phase of Operation: DESCENT - EMERGENCY
Findings
5. MANEUVER TO AVOID OBSTRUCTIONS - PERFORMED - PILOT IN COMMAND
6. OBJECT - WIRE,TRANSMISSION
----------
Occurrence #4: HARD LANDING
Phase of Operation: DESCENT - EMERGENCY
Findings
7. TERRAIN CONDITION - GROUND
Findings Legend: (C) = Cause, (F) = Factor
Time (Local): 02:45 CST Aircraft Reg No. N255TP San Antonio, TX 02/19/2004 File No. 16718
FTW04GA076"
Auto at night over a built up area, and they both walked away. Good result alround.
Combine Operations
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What a terrible situation to be in - over a town, at night, total engine failure. Well done that crew. I cannot recommend a second engine too highly.
I'm afraid the mind boggles over that one.
A contributing factor was the improper assembly of the compressor section during the engine overhaul by
unknown maintenance personnel.
unknown maintenance personnel.
