Police Aviation...............safety problem or not ?
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MightyGem, since our European partners got involved with aviation the regulatory requirements for maintaning currency are are mess, but most of us stick to the old 2 hours, 3 appraoches every 90 days.
Like Ariston we fly the ILS at least once a month.
Crab: zillions of hours in a straight line, no prep for inadvertant? A lot of my IF was on top in glorious sunshine, and a decent into cloud - visual flying transfering to instruments. The only difference is inadvertant IMC means getting up to MSA as quickly as possible. And before everyone jumps in talking about the freezing level, I would hope we all look at that as part of normal preflight planning.
Like Ariston we fly the ILS at least once a month.
Crab: zillions of hours in a straight line, no prep for inadvertant? A lot of my IF was on top in glorious sunshine, and a decent into cloud - visual flying transfering to instruments. The only difference is inadvertant IMC means getting up to MSA as quickly as possible. And before everyone jumps in talking about the freezing level, I would hope we all look at that as part of normal preflight planning.
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MG,
"So it seem reasonable to say that us non-rated pilots, who are required to fly 1 hour under the hood every three months, could be more current on intruments than someone with an IR."
Yes but it's unlikely. It's quite a simple matter to amend company SOPs / PAOM Part 2 to say otherwise, if required!
BTW, I know this is a highly contentious issue, always was, so here's a few more points for discussion:
There is a certain pressure to stay VMC/VCF for a number of insidious reasons, for example a weather diversion away from base takes the aircraft and crew out of the loop for a while, if the aircraft isn't based close by.
Some pilots, having done the job for some time without an IR might "prefer" to think they will never need one - some might lack confidence about that initial check ride - we've all heard how difficult it is. In any event, it's human nature/easier not to be bothered to do the recurrent training and get on home at shift change, rather than having to stay behind and do some I/F training with the oncoming shift pilot.
Some UEOs don't think they want IR'd pilots either because it's more expensive - and who pays, the contractor or the customer? Anyway, when the pilots are away training the aircraft is not available - bad for stats. What about those aircraft without an autopilot?
During the early part of my time on an ASU, a weather diversion would (and did) cause a great sucking of teeth. I know of one pilot who went inadvertent night IMC on two occasions, whilst operating out of an unlit site. Each time he did the safe thing; climbed and got ATC assistance. However, certain individuals made a big thing about it. After the second occasion he wasn't invited back.
Comments duly noted about ILS's being flown - but it's not generally the ILS that will kill you; it's that exciting episode before you get to that stage..... namely, indecision or mishandling during inadvertent entry into IMC that does it every time. How many pilots depart at night with an IMC/IFR back-up plan in mind for those first critical few seconds? How many have got airborne, only for the screens to mist up in the transition?That's where the problem and the dangers lie.
"So it seem reasonable to say that us non-rated pilots, who are required to fly 1 hour under the hood every three months, could be more current on intruments than someone with an IR."
Yes but it's unlikely. It's quite a simple matter to amend company SOPs / PAOM Part 2 to say otherwise, if required!
BTW, I know this is a highly contentious issue, always was, so here's a few more points for discussion:
There is a certain pressure to stay VMC/VCF for a number of insidious reasons, for example a weather diversion away from base takes the aircraft and crew out of the loop for a while, if the aircraft isn't based close by.
Some pilots, having done the job for some time without an IR might "prefer" to think they will never need one - some might lack confidence about that initial check ride - we've all heard how difficult it is. In any event, it's human nature/easier not to be bothered to do the recurrent training and get on home at shift change, rather than having to stay behind and do some I/F training with the oncoming shift pilot.
Some UEOs don't think they want IR'd pilots either because it's more expensive - and who pays, the contractor or the customer? Anyway, when the pilots are away training the aircraft is not available - bad for stats. What about those aircraft without an autopilot?
During the early part of my time on an ASU, a weather diversion would (and did) cause a great sucking of teeth. I know of one pilot who went inadvertent night IMC on two occasions, whilst operating out of an unlit site. Each time he did the safe thing; climbed and got ATC assistance. However, certain individuals made a big thing about it. After the second occasion he wasn't invited back.
Comments duly noted about ILS's being flown - but it's not generally the ILS that will kill you; it's that exciting episode before you get to that stage..... namely, indecision or mishandling during inadvertent entry into IMC that does it every time. How many pilots depart at night with an IMC/IFR back-up plan in mind for those first critical few seconds? How many have got airborne, only for the screens to mist up in the transition?That's where the problem and the dangers lie.
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Quite right. It's the first 45 seconds that decide wether you live or die, the trick is to use our considerable experience to avoid those situations in the first place...
We should all be by now living with an ethos of 'Safety First and Foremost'. If there's any doubt there is no doubt - Cancel or Divert and live to fight another day.
The most pressing Flight Safety need is for all police helicopters to be operated with an autopilot (the operation of which does not require an IR) and IMMVHO raise the night cloudbase minima from its current 600ft
We should all be by now living with an ethos of 'Safety First and Foremost'. If there's any doubt there is no doubt - Cancel or Divert and live to fight another day.
The most pressing Flight Safety need is for all police helicopters to be operated with an autopilot (the operation of which does not require an IR) and IMMVHO raise the night cloudbase minima from its current 600ft
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"the trick is to use our considerable experience to avoid those situations in the first place..."
That's fine BUT.... increasingly thse days, not all police pilots HAVE considerable experience, at least not the same high level of experience as only a few years ago. This is likely to get worse over the next few years as the industry sees a lot of highly experienced, ex "military I/R" qualified pilots retire. There isn't the same influx into the industry as a whole just now.
That's fine BUT.... increasingly thse days, not all police pilots HAVE considerable experience, at least not the same high level of experience as only a few years ago. This is likely to get worse over the next few years as the industry sees a lot of highly experienced, ex "military I/R" qualified pilots retire. There isn't the same influx into the industry as a whole just now.
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One current hot topic with UEO's is: Can the experience level be brought down from the current minimums? Obviously brought on by the current recruiting problems.
As I said before, most of the civvies coming into police aviation have an IR with considerable experience. Lets not make this a civvy / mil thing.
As I said before, most of the civvies coming into police aviation have an IR with considerable experience. Lets not make this a civvy / mil thing.
Letsby: by God I think I have to agree totally with you for once (sitting down)
Flight Safety is a very immotive subject to say the least.
Take our unit for instance, if any ASU in the country is going to trap a pilot into inadvertent IMC - it's us. We own a major chunk of the Uk's high ground, cumulo granite and black holes.
Our mantra is flight safety. Nothing moves in this unit without impacting on flt safety.
We have our own Safety Management System (SMS) the only one in the industry I believe (correct me if I'm wrong?). Everyone from ACPO downwards is affected.
We have compulsory CRM training for police observers.
All the pilots are shortly to become CRMI's and one of them a CRMI(E).
But one night on that rare night we employ a floater pilot, the whole system could be jeopardised because he hasn't been indoctrinated to the same level.
Twice in the past 13 yrs have we gone Inadvertent IMC and twice was it relief pilots.
We have learned from that and now have a system to minimise the problem (can't get rid completely because we do not have total control over them all!).
We have had a civvy driver here and we applied our SMS principles. This guaranteed that his flt safety levels were matched to those whose previous flying experiences (mil) were a known quantity.
I believe it is down to EDUCATION X 3.
The biggest let out clause in the event of suspect weather/route, is: press on itis is a crime at this Unit.
If in doubt - don't go. There isn't a job out there that overides this mantra [And we are a HEMS unit too].
Without tempting providence, it seems to be working and that is why inadvertent IMC is as rare as hens teeth!
Semi - I think you have a point. In 2001, a service provider attempted to short circuit the system and appeal direct to senior police officers and the HO to reduce the entry levels, citing pilot shortages. It was rejected at the time, partly because some of us were able to intercept the request and rebrief the decision makers. Our argument was that the service providers wanted to employ low time pilots and give them the appropriate level of renumeration thus maintaining their profit margins. There was no shortage then. But now....................I'm not so sure.
If you'd have asked me 3 yrs ago to employ a civvy, I'd have told you where to go (nothing personal!) but we did employ one eventually and he beat mil guys to it. He was a very rounded pilot with oodles of common sense.
We 'managed' him more closely and brought him up to speed carefully with the assistance of the police staff who sometimes had to defer jobs on rare occasions because of his learning profile. I no longer have any qualms about hiring a civvy.
Taking someone onboard with lower than current minimums today would be hard for us because of our terrain and demands. I do, however believe that someone like a city ASU could easily 'coach' a lesser mortal if they joined their ranks with say a CPL with 500hrs in command.
In fact I'm thinking of a police pilot, right now who was hired with ZERO twin engine time.....................
But thats for me to know.
The minimums are certainly up for review, I would suggest...there is always the POM II as a fall back.
Flight Safety is a very immotive subject to say the least.
Take our unit for instance, if any ASU in the country is going to trap a pilot into inadvertent IMC - it's us. We own a major chunk of the Uk's high ground, cumulo granite and black holes.
Our mantra is flight safety. Nothing moves in this unit without impacting on flt safety.
We have our own Safety Management System (SMS) the only one in the industry I believe (correct me if I'm wrong?). Everyone from ACPO downwards is affected.
We have compulsory CRM training for police observers.
All the pilots are shortly to become CRMI's and one of them a CRMI(E).
But one night on that rare night we employ a floater pilot, the whole system could be jeopardised because he hasn't been indoctrinated to the same level.
Twice in the past 13 yrs have we gone Inadvertent IMC and twice was it relief pilots.
We have learned from that and now have a system to minimise the problem (can't get rid completely because we do not have total control over them all!).
We have had a civvy driver here and we applied our SMS principles. This guaranteed that his flt safety levels were matched to those whose previous flying experiences (mil) were a known quantity.
I believe it is down to EDUCATION X 3.
The biggest let out clause in the event of suspect weather/route, is: press on itis is a crime at this Unit.
If in doubt - don't go. There isn't a job out there that overides this mantra [And we are a HEMS unit too].
Without tempting providence, it seems to be working and that is why inadvertent IMC is as rare as hens teeth!
Semi - I think you have a point. In 2001, a service provider attempted to short circuit the system and appeal direct to senior police officers and the HO to reduce the entry levels, citing pilot shortages. It was rejected at the time, partly because some of us were able to intercept the request and rebrief the decision makers. Our argument was that the service providers wanted to employ low time pilots and give them the appropriate level of renumeration thus maintaining their profit margins. There was no shortage then. But now....................I'm not so sure.
If you'd have asked me 3 yrs ago to employ a civvy, I'd have told you where to go (nothing personal!) but we did employ one eventually and he beat mil guys to it. He was a very rounded pilot with oodles of common sense.
We 'managed' him more closely and brought him up to speed carefully with the assistance of the police staff who sometimes had to defer jobs on rare occasions because of his learning profile. I no longer have any qualms about hiring a civvy.
Taking someone onboard with lower than current minimums today would be hard for us because of our terrain and demands. I do, however believe that someone like a city ASU could easily 'coach' a lesser mortal if they joined their ranks with say a CPL with 500hrs in command.
In fact I'm thinking of a police pilot, right now who was hired with ZERO twin engine time.....................
But thats for me to know.The minimums are certainly up for review, I would suggest...there is always the POM II as a fall back.
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 17th Dec 2005 at 17:51.
Avoid imitations
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ShyTorque may I ask what one could do in order to improve the experience levels of those who did not train in the armed forces?
-----------------------------
As far as pilots employed by the police? Give them an IR before allowing them to fly at night, perhaps?
I don't have all the answers, I'm afraid. For a long time the UK emergency services have relied on the experience found in military trained pilots - and they have had it relatively cheaply, too!
BTW, I for one, am NOT trying to make it a military/civvy debate, only a safety one.
-----------------------------
As far as pilots employed by the police? Give them an IR before allowing them to fly at night, perhaps?
I don't have all the answers, I'm afraid. For a long time the UK emergency services have relied on the experience found in military trained pilots - and they have had it relatively cheaply, too!
BTW, I for one, am NOT trying to make it a military/civvy debate, only a safety one.
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ShyTorque - Ex Mil pilots aren't always the answer. The AAC did a study more years ago than I care to remember into what groups of pilots tended to crash; the first group was the 200 hour pilots who crashed because they didn't know what they were doing; the second group were the 500 hour pilots who thought they knew what they were doing based on a whole two or three years' flying; the third group were, believe it or not, 2500 hour pilots who had been flying for 10 years or more, the cause of the crashes in this group were nearly always complacency, boredom or extraordinary stupidity. It is interesting to note that the next statistical blip happened around the 10,000 hour mark.
Which group do ASU's tend to recruit from?
I say again IRs are not the answer but with adequate supervision, a robust flight safety regime and sensible 'crew based' decision making, most problems can be avoided before they are encountered.
Which group do ASU's tend to recruit from?
I say again IRs are not the answer but with adequate supervision, a robust flight safety regime and sensible 'crew based' decision making, most problems can be avoided before they are encountered.
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Letsby,
Was this just AAC pilots, or across a broad spectrum?
Having said that - there can't be many 10k hours AAC pilots....
I might well agree with that. Some military pilots can tend to be a bit too full of their own perceived invulnerability, although in previous years there were a large number of pilots well over the 2,500 mark to choose from, but thankfully quite some way to go to the 10,000 hr blip. I presume you mean that these days most ex-mil pilots being looked at are in the 2,500 hr area?
A "well rounded" unit is undoubtedly the safest, with a set of good rules and policy in place. The lowest common denominator can be any one of us at times. Sounds like TC's unit has this sussed.
I'm glad to see that a lot of thought and effort is now going in to the manning experience level equation, before it was taken far too much for granted.
Was this just AAC pilots, or across a broad spectrum?
Having said that - there can't be many 10k hours AAC pilots....
I might well agree with that. Some military pilots can tend to be a bit too full of their own perceived invulnerability, although in previous years there were a large number of pilots well over the 2,500 mark to choose from, but thankfully quite some way to go to the 10,000 hr blip. I presume you mean that these days most ex-mil pilots being looked at are in the 2,500 hr area?
A "well rounded" unit is undoubtedly the safest, with a set of good rules and policy in place. The lowest common denominator can be any one of us at times. Sounds like TC's unit has this sussed.
I'm glad to see that a lot of thought and effort is now going in to the manning experience level equation, before it was taken far too much for granted.
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There are a lot of valid points here, TC is correct in a lot of what he says. We do not need a blanket raising of the limits. 600' is just fine for us at night in Liverpool, we have no hills or obstructions in the operating area. Rural units do not have this luxury. Being on a city unit brings its own problems when operating in strong winds and trying to turn tightly and stay in position for a difficult target. Torque limits are often explored!! In other words, we are all individuals with one set of rules to watch over us.
The answer?? My opinion of course. The PAOM Pt1 sets out the basic limits. The part2 is individual units. You can't lower limits, but you can raise them. You can also set out minimum qualifications required on the unit. I have said this many many times before, if you see something that is unsafe, it is your duty to report it to the authorities. This can be anonymous, so the fear of reprisals is not there. Don't just whinge, do something about it.
The answer?? My opinion of course. The PAOM Pt1 sets out the basic limits. The part2 is individual units. You can't lower limits, but you can raise them. You can also set out minimum qualifications required on the unit. I have said this many many times before, if you see something that is unsafe, it is your duty to report it to the authorities. This can be anonymous, so the fear of reprisals is not there. Don't just whinge, do something about it.
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Thanks Shy,
could anyone please describe what experience you are looking for?
One always hears the word experience but what does it actually mean?
Hours?
Landings?
I/R?
Twin of course.
could anyone please describe what experience you are looking for?
One always hears the word experience but what does it actually mean?
Hours?
Landings?
I/R?
Twin of course.
