Night Vision Goggles (NVG discussions merged)
We're next in line to go (pilot) live. Have been flying observer NVG ops for 3 years with supreme results. Fantastic aid to police night operations (rural). Fenn 700+ Gen II. Gen III too over sensitive for civvy ops.
Max Cont: your private e-mail is u/s. Have been trying to contact you. Send me a serviceable e-mail address!! Check your pprune e-mail.
Max Cont: your private e-mail is u/s. Have been trying to contact you. Send me a serviceable e-mail address!! Check your pprune e-mail.
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Anton van Dellen,
Nightsun can be used with NVGs. There is an IR filter available to allow this, unfortunately with the filter on the nightsun isn't visible to the unaided eye. The best fit is a filter that can be brought over the normal glass as required and controlled from the cockpit.
Nightsun can be used with NVGs. There is an IR filter available to allow this, unfortunately with the filter on the nightsun isn't visible to the unaided eye. The best fit is a filter that can be brought over the normal glass as required and controlled from the cockpit.
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Virgin,
NVGs are a tool like any other and have their limitations. Like most people I wore them for the first time and thought - WOW look at all the things I can see. After you've used them for a while, and if you have good instruction, you begin to think - oh dear, look at all the things I can't see.
Peripheral vision is non-existent and it takes conscious effort to move your head around and not fixate on the view in front. Depth perception is poor and you tend to find yourself underestimating the distance to obstructions. Apart from on the brightest nights you can't see wires, cables and whip ariels, the biggest helicopter killers, so good map reading is essential. You can see through most types of precipitation fairly well, so it's not unusual to look under the goggles on what you think is a nice night to see the windows covered in rain or snow. If you have a goggle failure or approach a well lit area where the goggles won't work you can find youself suddenly trying to fly visually, at night, in 500m vis in mist.
Having said all that, NVGs are still a fantastic tool for helping you fly at night and I wouldn't be without them if I could help it.
NVGs are a tool like any other and have their limitations. Like most people I wore them for the first time and thought - WOW look at all the things I can see. After you've used them for a while, and if you have good instruction, you begin to think - oh dear, look at all the things I can't see.
Peripheral vision is non-existent and it takes conscious effort to move your head around and not fixate on the view in front. Depth perception is poor and you tend to find yourself underestimating the distance to obstructions. Apart from on the brightest nights you can't see wires, cables and whip ariels, the biggest helicopter killers, so good map reading is essential. You can see through most types of precipitation fairly well, so it's not unusual to look under the goggles on what you think is a nice night to see the windows covered in rain or snow. If you have a goggle failure or approach a well lit area where the goggles won't work you can find youself suddenly trying to fly visually, at night, in 500m vis in mist.
Having said all that, NVGs are still a fantastic tool for helping you fly at night and I wouldn't be without them if I could help it.
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Sunny 77
5 hours a month! - I cant help feeling you are being a smidge unrealistic, especially in the Summer, when you can't start night flying until about 22.30. Where I work, we do 1.5/month to maintain currency, and I reckon this is a reasonable minimum. The course is about 10-12 hours, which includes flying and non-flying pilot duties low-level nav, nvg formation, load lifting, deck ops, and remote site field landings ( singly and as a formation). It can be a lot to learn in the time, but it works as part of a properly structured course.
5 hours a month! - I cant help feeling you are being a smidge unrealistic, especially in the Summer, when you can't start night flying until about 22.30. Where I work, we do 1.5/month to maintain currency, and I reckon this is a reasonable minimum. The course is about 10-12 hours, which includes flying and non-flying pilot duties low-level nav, nvg formation, load lifting, deck ops, and remote site field landings ( singly and as a formation). It can be a lot to learn in the time, but it works as part of a properly structured course.
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Having spent all my military life on SH ops using NVG's I can say that night flying without them is barking mad. Yes there are lights sources available to be used with them, lip lights cockpit lighting night sun and dragon lights. All have their pros and cons. The major problem with NVG is back and in particular neck strain. The current widely used goggles fit above the eye line on a mount. This tips the moment for neck movement way above the norm ergo acute neck strain at best, bulging disks at worst. It is a known problem and is being closely looked at by the military (only after several court cases). There is a cheap and effective solution on the US market and that is a prismatic cats eyes system that allows the user to use white and black light at the flick of a switch. The UK company specialising in NVG is STS solutions run by an ex RAF SH crewman. I can provide contact details. The guy has 1000's of hours on NVG and will explain all, for a cost obviously.
IMHO, youre barking mad to even contemplate low-level ops without NVG or FLIR in fact have both! They have saved my backside on many an occasions, they do however, lull one into a false sense of security at times.
PS Check out what the decent opticians have to say about them , one shudders.
The best simulator I ever came across was an old large fridge in NI, on the door it said" Put on NVG , have a cold shower, climb in and shut the door. Cold, Wet and can't see a bloody thing? Welcome to the world of NI NVG Ops !"
Any one got an jobs for an experienced rotary crewman come observer please get in touch time to leave Betty Windsor's flying circus!
IMHO, youre barking mad to even contemplate low-level ops without NVG or FLIR in fact have both! They have saved my backside on many an occasions, they do however, lull one into a false sense of security at times.
PS Check out what the decent opticians have to say about them , one shudders.
The best simulator I ever came across was an old large fridge in NI, on the door it said" Put on NVG , have a cold shower, climb in and shut the door. Cold, Wet and can't see a bloody thing? Welcome to the world of NI NVG Ops !"
Any one got an jobs for an experienced rotary crewman come observer please get in touch time to leave Betty Windsor's flying circus!
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STS v Anvis
The above thread mentions STS low profiles, research will show that no one flys on them because there is no perif vision with them on. If you have a tube failure or strong white light closes them down you are blind.
The best solution is Anvis 9 series, with a Gen 3 Omni 4 tube, they have all the bells and whistles and have been selected by virtually all flying forces around the world except our own! (Not manufactured by UK voters?)
The Police using Fens Gen 2 are doing so because they were sold them in an industry 'off-load' If you think Gen 3 are too sensitive against gen 2 then top marks to that Salesman from Fenns!
Anvis are sold by ITT and Litton, there is a free seminar/sales show in London October 02, Shepard press are doing the NIGHT Vision thing again. Good place to go if you are interested in joining the 'Fly safer at night' brigade. You won't find the CAA there in any number as they seem to object to the use of.
The conference in London is free to view the trade stands but costs to listen to the industry talks, worth it if you are about to shell out the cost of a Sports car on the concept.
http://www.nightvision2002.com/
The best solution is Anvis 9 series, with a Gen 3 Omni 4 tube, they have all the bells and whistles and have been selected by virtually all flying forces around the world except our own! (Not manufactured by UK voters?)
The Police using Fens Gen 2 are doing so because they were sold them in an industry 'off-load' If you think Gen 3 are too sensitive against gen 2 then top marks to that Salesman from Fenns!
Anvis are sold by ITT and Litton, there is a free seminar/sales show in London October 02, Shepard press are doing the NIGHT Vision thing again. Good place to go if you are interested in joining the 'Fly safer at night' brigade. You won't find the CAA there in any number as they seem to object to the use of.
The conference in London is free to view the trade stands but costs to listen to the industry talks, worth it if you are about to shell out the cost of a Sports car on the concept.
http://www.nightvision2002.com/
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Flygunz thanks for the reply.
I always wondered why they didn't use a type of screen that produced a red image that may affect night vision less, in case they failed and you had to look outside.
I always wondered why they didn't use a type of screen that produced a red image that may affect night vision less, in case they failed and you had to look outside.
Harpooner: you talk confidently for an outsider?
I can assure you that extensive trials were done by our unit using operational experts on both types (II and III) No-one else is doing NVG except Devon and Cornwall who have completely different spec.
Gen III are too sensitive for OUR TYPE OF WORK, which is just as well because they are also twice the price of our Gen II. Where is the sales sense in that little profit earner???
Who told you the CAA don't like NVG, you obviously haven't talked to Nigel Talbot recently, have you... Get your facts straight before 'harping' on in this forum...too many people know an awful lot more than you think...
I can assure you that extensive trials were done by our unit using operational experts on both types (II and III) No-one else is doing NVG except Devon and Cornwall who have completely different spec.
Gen III are too sensitive for OUR TYPE OF WORK, which is just as well because they are also twice the price of our Gen II. Where is the sales sense in that little profit earner???
Who told you the CAA don't like NVG, you obviously haven't talked to Nigel Talbot recently, have you... Get your facts straight before 'harping' on in this forum...too many people know an awful lot more than you think...
3D, the human eye is most sensitive in the green colour band which is the main reason for the colour of the image in NVG. I believe there are some experimental sets that produce a yellow image but I have not used them.
Thomas Coupling - I am sure that some of the improvements between Gen II and Gen III enhance the signal to noise ratio when light levels are high and prevent the automatic gain from closing down the goggles as much in these conditions. I think your 'experts' may have got you cheap goggles but not neccessarily for the right reasons. Gen III are vastly superior to Gen II and the differences are highlighted in difficult conditions. If NVG are too sensitive for your ops then you probably should be using white light or FLIR. In what conditions were they considered too sensitive?
Thomas Coupling - I am sure that some of the improvements between Gen II and Gen III enhance the signal to noise ratio when light levels are high and prevent the automatic gain from closing down the goggles as much in these conditions. I think your 'experts' may have got you cheap goggles but not neccessarily for the right reasons. Gen III are vastly superior to Gen II and the differences are highlighted in difficult conditions. If NVG are too sensitive for your ops then you probably should be using white light or FLIR. In what conditions were they considered too sensitive?
3D, on re-reading your post I can't help wondering if you are confusing night vision with night vision goggles. I am sure you know that the eye has 2 different types of cells in the retina - cones which are responsible for colour vision and are packed in to the fovea (the central area where light is focussed) and rods which cannot discriminate colour and cover the rest of the retina but are not packed as closely as the cones. When light levels drop (ie it gets dark) the iris opens to let as much light in as possible and the rods undergo a chemical transformation which renders them very sensitive to light. The cones are just not sensitive enough to work at low light levels so the area you usually use for vision - the fovea - is not functioning (this is why you are taught to look slightly away from an object in the dark to be able to see it - the reflected light from the object must fall on the rods if the brain is to notice it.
Clearly this limitation on eyesight is not much use when you are staring down a pair of toilet roll tubes (NVG) which is why you use the cones which receive high levels of green light (around 550 microns wavelength) from the tubes. So although you are flying around in the dark, you are using the eyes' daylight vision (photopic) instead of night vision (scotopic). Coming out from under goggles (ie failure of tube, battery etc) is not usually a drama as the low levels of cockpit lighting required to allow the NVG to operate efficiently, allow your rods to undergo their normal adaptation to darkness. In effect you get the best of both worlds as you have day and night vision at the same time.
I believe another reason for using the green image is that it reuires less power to produce a certain brightness using green/yellow light than in any other colour.
Clearly this limitation on eyesight is not much use when you are staring down a pair of toilet roll tubes (NVG) which is why you use the cones which receive high levels of green light (around 550 microns wavelength) from the tubes. So although you are flying around in the dark, you are using the eyes' daylight vision (photopic) instead of night vision (scotopic). Coming out from under goggles (ie failure of tube, battery etc) is not usually a drama as the low levels of cockpit lighting required to allow the NVG to operate efficiently, allow your rods to undergo their normal adaptation to darkness. In effect you get the best of both worlds as you have day and night vision at the same time.
I believe another reason for using the green image is that it reuires less power to produce a certain brightness using green/yellow light than in any other colour.
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Thomas Coupling.
None taken, no need to apologise! Outsiders I take it, are not welcome on the Police forum?
I did not intend to throw mud at you or set a fire under your seat, Out of curiosity what is it that makes Gen 3 worse than Gen 2? Having been down the painful line of aquisition recently I am now wondering if we have it wrong and neglected to look at older equipment to our loss? Is it because in urban applications they do not amplify the light as much as a 3?
As for costs we paid just under £8000 per set of goggles, were the Gen 2s half of that (please)
Apologies to Mr Talbot, I'll be interested to see if he will be on his own in October in London.
I did not intend to throw mud at you or set a fire under your seat, Out of curiosity what is it that makes Gen 3 worse than Gen 2? Having been down the painful line of aquisition recently I am now wondering if we have it wrong and neglected to look at older equipment to our loss? Is it because in urban applications they do not amplify the light as much as a 3?
As for costs we paid just under £8000 per set of goggles, were the Gen 2s half of that (please)
Apologies to Mr Talbot, I'll be interested to see if he will be on his own in October in London.
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NVG
Harpooner
The North Wales Police Unit chose the FENNS NG 700's (Gen 2+) with Omni 4 tubes as they gave better performance when used from an operational altitude of 500'. They also proved better suited to their needs when operating in both rural and urban environments. There were several sets of goggles tested during the trial period and it was hands-on (or should I say eyes-out) experience of the goggles that a decision was made. They were not as you put it "sold in an industry off-load". Gen 3 goggles are superior to Gen 2's, but in this instance the Gen 2+ goggles better suited the needs.
The gentlemen from the CAA are far from objectional to the use of NVG, infact they are doing everything they can to see their early introduction. The stumbling block you may find is the actual aircraft certification.
[email protected]
...or should that read DCFI, MW? Anyway, thanks for the lesson on the anatomy of the eye! The reason a green image is viewed when using NVG is simply due to the type of phosphor used in the manufacture. You have a choice of two! Amber or green.
The main improvements made from Gen 2 to Gen 3 goggles are the reduction in pore size of the Micro Channel Plate (MCP)- a main component of the goggles. The signal to noise ratio has, as a result been improved. Gen 3's are, as stated above superior to Gen 2's but not for the use as required in Police Ops. You are not required to operate in "difficult conditions" (as you put it) during Police Ops and they are actually used in conjunction with both FLIR and white light.
The "experts" did not buy cheap and they were purchased for all the right reasons - Police flying as opposed to military flying.
Take off the camouflaged blinkers, there is life on the other side of the fence!
The North Wales Police Unit chose the FENNS NG 700's (Gen 2+) with Omni 4 tubes as they gave better performance when used from an operational altitude of 500'. They also proved better suited to their needs when operating in both rural and urban environments. There were several sets of goggles tested during the trial period and it was hands-on (or should I say eyes-out) experience of the goggles that a decision was made. They were not as you put it "sold in an industry off-load". Gen 3 goggles are superior to Gen 2's, but in this instance the Gen 2+ goggles better suited the needs.
The gentlemen from the CAA are far from objectional to the use of NVG, infact they are doing everything they can to see their early introduction. The stumbling block you may find is the actual aircraft certification.
[email protected]
...or should that read DCFI, MW? Anyway, thanks for the lesson on the anatomy of the eye! The reason a green image is viewed when using NVG is simply due to the type of phosphor used in the manufacture. You have a choice of two! Amber or green.
The main improvements made from Gen 2 to Gen 3 goggles are the reduction in pore size of the Micro Channel Plate (MCP)- a main component of the goggles. The signal to noise ratio has, as a result been improved. Gen 3's are, as stated above superior to Gen 2's but not for the use as required in Police Ops. You are not required to operate in "difficult conditions" (as you put it) during Police Ops and they are actually used in conjunction with both FLIR and white light.
The "experts" did not buy cheap and they were purchased for all the right reasons - Police flying as opposed to military flying.
Take off the camouflaged blinkers, there is life on the other side of the fence!
Flashman,
You may have police connections but you are not exactly Hercules Poirot you are wrong, wrong and wrong again
1. I am not and never have been DCFI at MW I served for 7 years on exchange there as a Lynx/Gaz QHI a simple look at the from box at the bottom of the post would have told you where I work.
2. You can have phosphor pretty much any colour you like look at your computer screen (if its not LCD) it has red, blue and green phosphor dots to produce the colour image. As I mentioned before, the eye is most sensitive to the green spectrum and can therefore discriminate between more shades of green than any other colour rather useful if you are trying to interpret a single colour display.
3. The main improvements from Gen II to Gen III were the use of Gallium Arsenide as a photocathode (the bit that turns the incoming photons into electrons and sends them down the Micro Channel Plates) and the coating of the MCPs with an ion absorbing material which helps prevent damage from strong light sources and increases the tube life.
4. If the police are only going to fly above 500 using NVG then I agree that Gen II would be adequate but if they are going to be used for approach and landing to field sites then they would be significantly better off with Gen III.
My lesson on the eye was meant to inform not patronise as many people use this forum to increase their knowledge of aviation matters me included and 3D seemed to have confused night vision with using goggles.
You may have police connections but you are not exactly Hercules Poirot you are wrong, wrong and wrong again
1. I am not and never have been DCFI at MW I served for 7 years on exchange there as a Lynx/Gaz QHI a simple look at the from box at the bottom of the post would have told you where I work.
2. You can have phosphor pretty much any colour you like look at your computer screen (if its not LCD) it has red, blue and green phosphor dots to produce the colour image. As I mentioned before, the eye is most sensitive to the green spectrum and can therefore discriminate between more shades of green than any other colour rather useful if you are trying to interpret a single colour display.
3. The main improvements from Gen II to Gen III were the use of Gallium Arsenide as a photocathode (the bit that turns the incoming photons into electrons and sends them down the Micro Channel Plates) and the coating of the MCPs with an ion absorbing material which helps prevent damage from strong light sources and increases the tube life.
4. If the police are only going to fly above 500 using NVG then I agree that Gen II would be adequate but if they are going to be used for approach and landing to field sites then they would be significantly better off with Gen III.
My lesson on the eye was meant to inform not patronise as many people use this forum to increase their knowledge of aviation matters me included and 3D seemed to have confused night vision with using goggles.
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[email protected],
Sorry for the confusion, never assume, check as they say! I should have known better, a crab using an e-mail address for a user name. I now know who you are and no you wouldn't have been the DCFI !. I was also at MW as a Lynx/Gaz QHI. Infact I spent more time in the NAAFI queue than you did on goggles!
Yes, you can have phosphur pretty much any colour you like - white wouldn't be much good for night flying though would it?!
I said only the colours amber and green are used in the manufacture of NVG. Green being the general choice as more shades of green are visible to the human eye.
The main improvements from Gen II to Gen III were the use of Gallium Arsenide as a photocathode and the ion barrier film on the MCP's - I'll give you that one! The pore size reduction of the MCP was and continues to be an important area of advancement. Saying that, Panoramic Night Vision Goggles will be available in 2-3 years.
I can assure you that North Wales Police Air Operations Unit are more than happy with their choice of goggles. As mentioned in my previous post, Gen 2+ proved to be the better goggle during police NVG trials.
Hercules Poirot was a ficticious, fat belgian detective who I believe has more in common with you than me! Give my regards to all the ex-pongo pilots who jumped across and now walk sideways.
Sorry for the confusion, never assume, check as they say! I should have known better, a crab using an e-mail address for a user name. I now know who you are and no you wouldn't have been the DCFI !. I was also at MW as a Lynx/Gaz QHI. Infact I spent more time in the NAAFI queue than you did on goggles!
Yes, you can have phosphur pretty much any colour you like - white wouldn't be much good for night flying though would it?!
I said only the colours amber and green are used in the manufacture of NVG. Green being the general choice as more shades of green are visible to the human eye.
The main improvements from Gen II to Gen III were the use of Gallium Arsenide as a photocathode and the ion barrier film on the MCP's - I'll give you that one! The pore size reduction of the MCP was and continues to be an important area of advancement. Saying that, Panoramic Night Vision Goggles will be available in 2-3 years.
I can assure you that North Wales Police Air Operations Unit are more than happy with their choice of goggles. As mentioned in my previous post, Gen 2+ proved to be the better goggle during police NVG trials.
Hercules Poirot was a ficticious, fat belgian detective who I believe has more in common with you than me! Give my regards to all the ex-pongo pilots who jumped across and now walk sideways.
Come on then Flashman who are you? I flew with a lot of people at MW in 7 years and unless you are really old I probably did your C to I on the Lynx. Don't hide behind a 'nom de prune' give us a clue!
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Flash and TC - Make your mind up!
'The North Wales Police Unit chose the FENNS NG 700's (Gen 2+) with Omni 4 tubes as they gave better performance when used from an operational altitude of 500'
Omni IV tubes are Gen 3! It doesn't matter when the cases were made it is the tubes that decide the Generation, if you have Omni 4 you have a gen 3 set of goggles and they are the next best thing to Gated gen 3. And there we were getting all confused over your choice of Generation 2, which you don't seem to have after all.
Or do you still believe you do have Gen 2?
Omni IV tubes are Gen 3! It doesn't matter when the cases were made it is the tubes that decide the Generation, if you have Omni 4 you have a gen 3 set of goggles and they are the next best thing to Gated gen 3. And there we were getting all confused over your choice of Generation 2, which you don't seem to have after all.
Or do you still believe you do have Gen 2?
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NG700 NVG
I think you may find they are known as "Gen 2 plus" or "Gen two and a half". Tube is Generation 2 but Tube Classification is OMNI 4. Basically, a 3 litre engine in a Ford Fiesta!
Last edited by Green Goblin; 9th Jul 2002 at 19:43.