Night Vision Goggles (NVG discussions merged)
4. a matter of tense mon ami. "did" I really... Vs 'Do" I really... Can be read in two ways and "Did" implies you already "have" spelled out the case. To stop rotating around this semantic point, and in any event - yes, mate you really DO have to explain the reason.
5. review spelling of hard hat. I know you dig the cryptics.
PS: The Straw Man is a victimless crime. But a clever one in the hands of experts like you.
Straw Man Explanation 1
More detailed Straw Man
5. review spelling of hard hat. I know you dig the cryptics.
PS: The Straw Man is a victimless crime. But a clever one in the hands of experts like you.
Straw Man Explanation 1
More detailed Straw Man
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by helmet fire
4. a matter of tense mon ami. "did" I really... Vs 'Do" I really... Can be read in two ways and "Did" implies you already "have" spelled out the case. To stop rotating around this semantic point, and in any event - yes, mate you really DO have to explain the reason.
5. review spelling of hard hat. I know you dig the cryptics.
PS: The Straw Man is a victimless crime. But a clever one in the hands of experts like you.
Straw Man Explanation 1
More detailed Straw Man
5. review spelling of hard hat. I know you dig the cryptics.
PS: The Straw Man is a victimless crime. But a clever one in the hands of experts like you.
Straw Man Explanation 1
More detailed Straw Man
5. OK, fair cop Helmet....I also dig the critics...
P.S. The 'Straw Man' argument is a 'crime' against logic and reason..
P.S. (2) No experts in this game porro, just survivors......
Cheers!
The main reason for not operating with dissimilar goggles is so that both pilots or pilot and nav can see the same things. If one guy is navigating and trying to talk the other one on to the LS, it is fairly entertaining when the handling pilot can't see what he is being told to look for. In a high threat environment, all the crew need the best visual acuity they can get and having one person miss an enemy position/tank etc because he had the crap goggles could lose the aircraft. So for military ops, generally using mixed goggles is a false economy.
Also the safety aspect of flying with one set of goggles one night and another the next just means more potential for cock up in the cockpit when the battery fails and you can't instinctively go for the battery switch because it's in a different place each time.
For HEMS/police work I can see no real safety case for avoiding mixed goggles, it's just nice if you can, that's all.
Also the safety aspect of flying with one set of goggles one night and another the next just means more potential for cock up in the cockpit when the battery fails and you can't instinctively go for the battery switch because it's in a different place each time.
For HEMS/police work I can see no real safety case for avoiding mixed goggles, it's just nice if you can, that's all.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the boot
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote=maxeemum]It is obvious that this has been his "lifes work" for the past few years.
[quote]
You and Rob Rich seem to make out that it is only Helmet that has put "his life's work" into civil NVGs in Aus....there have been others who have also put a hell of a lot of "lifes work" over many years with civil NVGs but conveniently left out of your accolades.
As I see it Helmet and 'other' have put alot of work into progressing NVGs for civil helo ops and 'ALL' deserve an equal level of ass blowing!
[quote]
You and Rob Rich seem to make out that it is only Helmet that has put "his life's work" into civil NVGs in Aus....there have been others who have also put a hell of a lot of "lifes work" over many years with civil NVGs but conveniently left out of your accolades.
As I see it Helmet and 'other' have put alot of work into progressing NVGs for civil helo ops and 'ALL' deserve an equal level of ass blowing!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We support Delta Torque
You guys have been giving DT a bit of a flogging...
We don't want to get involved in your debate except to say that after a 'straw' poll of our NVG qualified pilots:
1. We fully support DT's case for the highest levels of training and equipment.
2. We don't think that a case based on the opinions of 6 or 8 'experts' is any more 'reasoned' or 'bolstered with fact' than DT and his 'stand for standards.'
3. We don't have time to get into the politics...we just get on with the job.
4. We are surprised that no other international folk (bar our AAvn friend Crab) have made comment.
5. We think that Mike Tavcar's 15 years of research, writing and lobbying will shortly pay off. And he isn't looking to make a 'quick buck' out of it. Not that anyone is, of course...
6. We hope that CASA regularly read this forum...
Signed 6 'experts' and Julie, the office lady...
We don't want to get involved in your debate except to say that after a 'straw' poll of our NVG qualified pilots:
1. We fully support DT's case for the highest levels of training and equipment.
2. We don't think that a case based on the opinions of 6 or 8 'experts' is any more 'reasoned' or 'bolstered with fact' than DT and his 'stand for standards.'
3. We don't have time to get into the politics...we just get on with the job.
4. We are surprised that no other international folk (bar our AAvn friend Crab) have made comment.
5. We think that Mike Tavcar's 15 years of research, writing and lobbying will shortly pay off. And he isn't looking to make a 'quick buck' out of it. Not that anyone is, of course...
6. We hope that CASA regularly read this forum...
Signed 6 'experts' and Julie, the office lady...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my Hammock or at the Pub!
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rivnut, thank you in advance if you are a contributor to the cause. In fact thanks to all that have carried the torch thus far.. As for blowing wind up peoples arses, just acknowledging some credit where credit is due. Helmut and I know each other from a previous life and in that life we gave lots of S- - T to each other. Now that I am re-incarnated as an ex serving Mil guy I am less tense these days.
Having been a NVG QFI for many years, I follow with interest how the capability can be introduced/inculcated into the Civil industry. Fact is it is long over due and is required.
All that have contributed-Thanks
CASA get on with it.
Max
Having been a NVG QFI for many years, I follow with interest how the capability can be introduced/inculcated into the Civil industry. Fact is it is long over due and is required.
All that have contributed-Thanks
CASA get on with it.
Max
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Victoria
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mix & match
The main reason for not operating with dissimilar goggles is so that both pilots or pilot and nav can see the same things. If one guy..... because it's in a different place each time.
For HEMS/police work I can see no real safety case for avoiding mixed goggles, it's just nice if you can, that's all.
Last edited by gadgetguru; 16th May 2006 at 10:13. Reason: added title
vpaw and the six experts: welcome to the debate, even though you claim you dont want to get involved!! And a special welcome to Julie. The more people exposing arguments, the more likely we are to get a stronger and more balanced end result. In answer to your points:
1. This was not meant to be a personality contest where you have to stick by someone because they are a much better bloke than me, it was intended as a way to examine the proposed standards. The beauty of the industry proposal (not my standards) is that you can easily implement higher standards and training on top of the minimum so as to suit your environment and your opinions. The bonus here is that you dont even have to justify those higher standards with any evidence!! Nor do you have to convince arseholes like me. Should suit you guys just fine.
But if you want to impose higher standards on all other players - I politely suggest that the way to do it is to back up your requirements with a reason.
The industry proposal will only affect the VPAW CMI in that competencies are established, and the minimum sequences for award of a NVG qualification or renewal are listed.
2. Welcome back the Straw Man! Never have I said or implied, that "our" six or eight experts are any better than "your" six or eight experts. What I said was that to impose any further requirements on the INTERNATIONAL standards created by SC-196 then we should have a justification. Is your experitse, or mine, any better than that international pannel of subject matter experts? I certainly cannot claim that.
3. What politics are involved here? I really do not understand your point. Is it political down there?
4. Perhaps because it is so Australian-centric and they have no real stake in the development of our regulations.
5. With a name like vpaw, perhaps you should 'know" rather then "think" Mike's work will shortly come to fruition. What a fantastic day for the industry: at last an NVG operation. It is a significant milestone for all of us, and Mike Tavcar can take an enourmous amount of credit for the achievement.
6. Bruce Byron has been driving this process throughout. He asked the industry to put forward a ratified position paper. He stated that divergence from international practice or industry ratified procedures must only be made with a safety case. His vision is for CASA to create usable regulations by relience on international practices and established procedures, helped by industry groups for the industry. His vision is to examine rules by using outcomes, and to reduce prescription where possible. He wants to move to two tiers of rules: CAR and CAAP.
We need to support this vision 100%, less it be destroyed by the old method of the industry waiting for the "fatherly" regulator to tell us what and how.
So I really hope that CASA do read this thread. They can see, as can we, that as yet there is little substantive reason put forward to justify divergence from the international standards. They can see that we certainly support Bruce Byron's vision.
rivnut: look back through the thread carefully. Throughout the thread, many people have been credited with work toward the NVG development, and just because I had the time to put out the proposal onto a public forum doesn't at all mean I am the one who "owns" all the effort. Neither you, nor I, have yet mentioned the 50 or so industry people who have replied in writing with suggstions and contributions to the industry paper. Nor have we mentioned the many Kiwis (Chris Moody, Graeme Gale, John Funnel, John Fogden, etc) who have helped, nor the 65 people who came up to Queensland and spent hours of their own time going through the paper before voting unanimously on the current position in May last year. Nor the CASA people for whom this whole project has become representative of the change that Bruce Byron strives for: Rob Collins, Charles Lenarcic, Greg Vaughan, Warren Duff, and Joe Tully. What about David Fawcett MP, David Earley and Peter Heath of the Australian Safety Forum and Mike Watson and others from the ATSB? I am sure that I have forgotten some.
Any attempt to claim that credit is due to one or two people is to fly in the face of reality.
I find your comments to be insulting, bizarre, and smacking of some sort of hidden agenda.
gadget guru: there is a minimum standard of NVG set down, so you cannot simply go and get the "cheapest & nastiest pieces of crap". Given that you are unable to buy Omnibus II tubes any longer (they are out of production), it is most likely that the "cheapest and nastiest" you can buy is the same set of NVG stipulated by the VPAW CMI - Omnibus IV.
1. This was not meant to be a personality contest where you have to stick by someone because they are a much better bloke than me, it was intended as a way to examine the proposed standards. The beauty of the industry proposal (not my standards) is that you can easily implement higher standards and training on top of the minimum so as to suit your environment and your opinions. The bonus here is that you dont even have to justify those higher standards with any evidence!! Nor do you have to convince arseholes like me. Should suit you guys just fine.
But if you want to impose higher standards on all other players - I politely suggest that the way to do it is to back up your requirements with a reason.
The industry proposal will only affect the VPAW CMI in that competencies are established, and the minimum sequences for award of a NVG qualification or renewal are listed.
2. Welcome back the Straw Man! Never have I said or implied, that "our" six or eight experts are any better than "your" six or eight experts. What I said was that to impose any further requirements on the INTERNATIONAL standards created by SC-196 then we should have a justification. Is your experitse, or mine, any better than that international pannel of subject matter experts? I certainly cannot claim that.
3. What politics are involved here? I really do not understand your point. Is it political down there?
4. Perhaps because it is so Australian-centric and they have no real stake in the development of our regulations.
5. With a name like vpaw, perhaps you should 'know" rather then "think" Mike's work will shortly come to fruition. What a fantastic day for the industry: at last an NVG operation. It is a significant milestone for all of us, and Mike Tavcar can take an enourmous amount of credit for the achievement.
6. Bruce Byron has been driving this process throughout. He asked the industry to put forward a ratified position paper. He stated that divergence from international practice or industry ratified procedures must only be made with a safety case. His vision is for CASA to create usable regulations by relience on international practices and established procedures, helped by industry groups for the industry. His vision is to examine rules by using outcomes, and to reduce prescription where possible. He wants to move to two tiers of rules: CAR and CAAP.
We need to support this vision 100%, less it be destroyed by the old method of the industry waiting for the "fatherly" regulator to tell us what and how.
So I really hope that CASA do read this thread. They can see, as can we, that as yet there is little substantive reason put forward to justify divergence from the international standards. They can see that we certainly support Bruce Byron's vision.
rivnut: look back through the thread carefully. Throughout the thread, many people have been credited with work toward the NVG development, and just because I had the time to put out the proposal onto a public forum doesn't at all mean I am the one who "owns" all the effort. Neither you, nor I, have yet mentioned the 50 or so industry people who have replied in writing with suggstions and contributions to the industry paper. Nor have we mentioned the many Kiwis (Chris Moody, Graeme Gale, John Funnel, John Fogden, etc) who have helped, nor the 65 people who came up to Queensland and spent hours of their own time going through the paper before voting unanimously on the current position in May last year. Nor the CASA people for whom this whole project has become representative of the change that Bruce Byron strives for: Rob Collins, Charles Lenarcic, Greg Vaughan, Warren Duff, and Joe Tully. What about David Fawcett MP, David Earley and Peter Heath of the Australian Safety Forum and Mike Watson and others from the ATSB? I am sure that I have forgotten some.
Any attempt to claim that credit is due to one or two people is to fly in the face of reality.
I find your comments to be insulting, bizarre, and smacking of some sort of hidden agenda.
gadget guru: there is a minimum standard of NVG set down, so you cannot simply go and get the "cheapest & nastiest pieces of crap". Given that you are unable to buy Omnibus II tubes any longer (they are out of production), it is most likely that the "cheapest and nastiest" you can buy is the same set of NVG stipulated by the VPAW CMI - Omnibus IV.
Last edited by helmet fire; 17th May 2006 at 03:35.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Victoria
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hoping for the best
all good
have been long accustomed to using the cheapest contract bid winners' product
(green machine)
I sir*, like many others, I'm sure look forward to the acceptance of NVG ops.
& appreciate the efforts of all to get it off the ground.
[sir*: don't take it personally - it's just a word]
have been long accustomed to using the cheapest contract bid winners' product
(green machine)
I sir*, like many others, I'm sure look forward to the acceptance of NVG ops.
& appreciate the efforts of all to get it off the ground.
[sir*: don't take it personally - it's just a word]
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the boot
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by helmet fire
I find your comments to be insulting, bizarre, and smacking of some sort of hidden agenda.
Cheer the team - don't throw mud at the players
Agree with helmetfire.
There have been so many people pushing this project.
From many angles.
Mike T was a pioneer in getting a formal "in house" thing going with CASA. Their "confidential" study was based on maybe roles the rest of us do not need. Probably police stuff?
Time has brought all of these people closer together, and the HAA group has taken a slightly different approach, but on the same playing field, aiming at the same goal posts.
Problem, is the Kiwis came and listened to the Oz conferences, linked up with the overseas experts and took our ball home and scored their own goal.
They have NVG in service, we are still arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Recent CASA email to an industry member suggested another six months delay. (Resources?)
Keep rowing, we can see land ahead..........
There have been so many people pushing this project.
From many angles.
Mike T was a pioneer in getting a formal "in house" thing going with CASA. Their "confidential" study was based on maybe roles the rest of us do not need. Probably police stuff?
Time has brought all of these people closer together, and the HAA group has taken a slightly different approach, but on the same playing field, aiming at the same goal posts.
Problem, is the Kiwis came and listened to the Oz conferences, linked up with the overseas experts and took our ball home and scored their own goal.
They have NVG in service, we are still arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Recent CASA email to an industry member suggested another six months delay. (Resources?)
Keep rowing, we can see land ahead..........
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by robsrich
Their "confidential" study was based on maybe roles the rest of us do not need. Probably police stuff?
I don't know that VPAW had a 'confidential' study....My understanding was that it was about operating below LSALT at night on NVGs! Hardly police stuff that the rest of the industry do not need..
Their industry trial, which was certainly not confidential (as I got an invite), as did other major operators..consisted of takeoff, fly to destination and land...
Cheers...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: My arse crack
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I look at the past accidents that have occurred and think, Would NVGs have possibly made a difference?
I believe a strong YES is the answer there, then I get angry at the inaction and dithering by the regulator and think boy if I was a relative of those victims, I would be looking to see if it is possible to file a civil suit against the regulator for their inaction. Thoughts anyone?
I do feel that collegues and relatives of people who have died in the past would be just as frustrated and upset as much as we are in the industry, upon reading this thread knowing there is a capability that can improve safety and may have potentially prevented the deaths and injuries sufferred by personnel involved in these past accidents.
Normally nothing is done until someone gets hurt (its called "blood priority". look at the recent case of Sophie Delezio and traffic lights at school crossings). But in these accident cases the regulator still just did not get it! A big failure of their responsibilities! Sad really.
I believe a strong YES is the answer there, then I get angry at the inaction and dithering by the regulator and think boy if I was a relative of those victims, I would be looking to see if it is possible to file a civil suit against the regulator for their inaction. Thoughts anyone?
I do feel that collegues and relatives of people who have died in the past would be just as frustrated and upset as much as we are in the industry, upon reading this thread knowing there is a capability that can improve safety and may have potentially prevented the deaths and injuries sufferred by personnel involved in these past accidents.
Normally nothing is done until someone gets hurt (its called "blood priority". look at the recent case of Sophie Delezio and traffic lights at school crossings). But in these accident cases the regulator still just did not get it! A big failure of their responsibilities! Sad really.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: LJCE
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Night Vison lights on helicopters
Hay!
I'm doing an seminar work at electro-engeneering class about lights and optical signalisation on airplanes and helicopters.
One of topics that i would like to write about is "NVG lights(exterior and interior) on helicopters".
So i would like to ask you if you have any data on NVG lights instaled on helicopters, any pictures, wiring diagrams, any data on how lights are constructed, how do they produce light, voltages... anything.
I would be very gratefull if any of you could help me!
I'm doing an seminar work at electro-engeneering class about lights and optical signalisation on airplanes and helicopters.
One of topics that i would like to write about is "NVG lights(exterior and interior) on helicopters".
So i would like to ask you if you have any data on NVG lights instaled on helicopters, any pictures, wiring diagrams, any data on how lights are constructed, how do they produce light, voltages... anything.
I would be very gratefull if any of you could help me!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: KPHL
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you doing the work or are we?
I think the most promising field for NVG compatible and NVG friendly lighting is in LED's. I don't have a company, but there's three terms to use in your search.
I think the most promising field for NVG compatible and NVG friendly lighting is in LED's. I don't have a company, but there's three terms to use in your search.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: the hills of halton
Age: 71
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.aerodynamix.com/
this guy did some good work at my previous place of employment.
He has really cool tea shirts.
Neil
this guy did some good work at my previous place of employment.
He has really cool tea shirts.
Neil